What IS The Free Market

[TC_Triple3]

[/QUOTE]
so what??? it alters value choices, and????? Do you have aay idea where you are going with this trivia???[/QUOTE]

Apparently you don't understand the concept of value or it's importance. Since every single thing you do is a value choice, and value is a core economic concept, everything you do is economics.

Utilizing credit alters value choices (in a majority of people, including yourself, but I doubt you would admit it) because they are less concerned about price, or whether it is prudent to make the purchase in the first place, when using a credit card versus using available cash.

Utilizing credit also increases the volume of money and directly contributes to the economic distortions that occur from monetary inflation. This is ANYTHING but trivia, it is at the heart of our economic condition as a nation. Credit should be a scarce resource that is allocated to it's most productive use, versus being abundantly available. It is the sheer volume of credit that causes economic distortions, including the housing bubble, the roaring 20's, and the boom that preceded the Panic of 1837.

Trivial? Not a chance.

 

[bripat9643]

Wrong. Central planning and capitalism are mutually exclusive.

Not if capitalist plan and allocate materials wisely, instead of just doing whatever makes them the most money.

If 'central planning' means planning done by government - it's not capitalism.

Central planning can only be done by government because only government can use force to make you do things that are not in your interest. Central planning is only necessary to force individuals to do thing that are not in their personal interest for the good of the whole, the good of the whole of course meaning for the good of politicians and bureaucrats

Variants can involve mercantilism, corporate capitalism, crony capitalism, and others, especially when governments work for large corporations.

Government never "works for" a corporation. It's the other way around. Everything you listed is not capitalism. It's liberalism.

 

[kaz]

Not much to argue about any of that. You are obviously one who does really care and you sound much like my bosses/owners.

My last statement is somewhat contradictory. They have all the statistics about how much people make, pay their employees, and all the information they need about people so I understand why they need to step in and take control in areas. Not everyone is like you, that know how to make the good, honest, well informed decisions.

Better answer, the market keeps them in check. They fail. Government need do nothing

Yes and no. I think there is a huge offset of wealth in this country due to outsourcing and greed. Then the government tries to step in but it affects everyone in the lower tiers more. Food is so damn expensive anymore and everything seems to keep going up while wage increases are not enough to cover inflation. Especially how gas prices fluctuate so much.

So you expect to be paid when you work? Are you greedy?

 

[kaz]

Not much to argue about any of that. You are obviously one who does really care and you sound much like my bosses/owners.

My last statement is somewhat contradictory. They have all the statistics about how much people make, pay their employees, and all the information they need about people so I understand why they need to step in and take control in areas. Not everyone is like you, that know how to make the good, honest, well informed decisions.

Better answer, the market keeps them in check. They fail. Government need do nothing

Yes and no. I think there is a huge offset of wealth in this country due to outsourcing and greed.

I don't see why wealth disparity is, necessarily, a bad thing. Likewise, greed - or more generally desire - isn't necessarily bad. What makes it bad or good is what people do in pursuit of their desire. You'll find plenty of support among libertarians and conservatives if you want to go after corrupt people who make money through fraud and deceit, but I haven't heard a good argument for why wealth is inherently a bad thing.

Why should one person get better grades just because they work harder? Why should one person be better at the piano just because they practice? Why should one person be better at crosswords just because they are smarter? Why should one person get a pro-basketball contract just because they are a better athlete? Why should one person make more money just because they take more risk and responsibility? Shouldn't we all be the same?

 

[kaz]

Well wealth disparity can hold people back

No kidding, I'm six feet, that held me back from proceeding from high school to college basketball. I have no sense of fashion, that held me back from going into fashion design.

My parents helped a little for undergrad, not a lot after that. I worked nights, weekends and summers to get through undergrad. I worked a full time job at GE sometimes working 12 hours a day 7 days a week so GE would pay for my first Masters. I spent my savings and borrowed money to put myself through my second Masters. I lived below my means the whole time and saved. I see your point though. Now I have more choices and more options. Wow, when I think about it, that really is unfair, isn't it?

No money to obtain materials necessary to experiment and create, no money to enjoy life and do the things that make them happy. Im not saying being wealthy is inherently bad. But the ones that horde the wealth and have an abundance of it can be. Of course wealth come in different forms. But for the ones who own 20 million dollar houses and waste valuable commodities, suck up and waste energy and fuel. When that is being done it drives up the price for all.. That is when it is bad.

What does "hording" even mean? The term is "saving." You accumulate wealth by saving. Do you know despite the Democratic rhetoric, the vast majority of millionaires earned and saved the money themselves, they did not get it from their parents?

 

[kaz]

Wrong. Central planning and capitalism are mutually exclusive.

Not if capitalist plan and allocate materials wisely, instead of just doing whatever makes them the most money.

If 'central planning' means planning done by government - it's not capitalism.

Central planning can only be done by government because only government can use force to make you do things that are not in your interest. Central planning is only necessary to force individuals to do thing that are not in their personal interest for the good of the whole, the good of the whole of course meaning for the good of politicians and bureaucrats

Variants can involve mercantilism, corporate capitalism, crony capitalism, and others, especially when governments work for large corporations.

I addressed those in the post you responded to. Do you want to go back and read it or do you want me to copy and paste it for you?

 

[dblack]

Not much to argue about any of that. You are obviously one who does really care and you sound much like my bosses/owners.

My last statement is somewhat contradictory. They have all the statistics about how much people make, pay their employees, and all the information they need about people so I understand why they need to step in and take control in areas. Not everyone is like you, that know how to make the good, honest, well informed decisions.

Better answer, the market keeps them in check. They fail. Government need do nothing

Yes and no. I think there is a huge offset of wealth in this country due to outsourcing and greed.

I don't see why wealth disparity is, necessarily, a bad thing. Likewise, greed - or more generally desire - isn't necessarily bad. What makes it bad or good is what people do in pursuit of their desire. You'll find plenty of support among libertarians and conservatives if you want to go after corrupt people who make money through fraud and deceit, but I haven't heard a good argument for why wealth is inherently a bad thing.

Why should one person get better grades just because they work harder? Why should one person be better at the piano just because they practice? Why should one person be better at crosswords just because they are smarter? Why should one person get a pro-basketball contract just because they are a better athlete? Why should one person make more money just because they take more risk and responsibility? Shouldn't we all be the same?

I suppose. But I'm not really looking at it from a moral/justice perspective. The point I'd like liberals to acknowledge is that, if people aren't cheating or stealing to acquire wealth, they're getting it by providing other people with goods or services they value. A free market allows society to "redistribute" its wealth toward those who will use it to most effectively give us what we want and need.

From a broader view, wealth isn't about personal comfort - it's economic power. Those with more wealth have more power to decide what we do with the labor and resources available to society. And we want that power to go to those who make the best decisions. If it turns out that a very small minority of people can make the best decisions, then it makes sense for them to have the most economic power.

That said, it's obvious that not all wealth is acquired by honest free trade, and we should strive to prevent such fraud. But simply assuming that anyone with a lot of wealth has "too much", and implementing blanket policies to redistribute it via mandate, doesn't serve society's best interests.

 

[kaz]

That said, it's obvious that not all wealth is acquired by honest free trade, and we should strive to prevent such fraud. But simply assuming that anyone with a lot of wealth has "too much", and implementing blanket policies to redistribute it via mandate, doesn't serve society's best interests.

Yes, it's actually shooting ourselves in the head, isn't it?

If those of us who run companies and provide jobs don't do that then we'll all be poor. Obama and the Crips running the Democratic party are choking the goose that laid the golden egg

 

[rickm19]

Not much to argue about any of that. You are obviously one who does really care and you sound much like my bosses/owners.

My last statement is somewhat contradictory. They have all the statistics about how much people make, pay their employees, and all the information they need about people so I understand why they need to step in and take control in areas. Not everyone is like you, that know how to make the good, honest, well informed decisions.

Better answer, the market keeps them in check. They fail. Government need do nothing

Yes and no. I think there is a huge offset of wealth in this country due to outsourcing and greed. Then the government tries to step in but it affects everyone in the lower tiers more. Food is so damn expensive anymore and everything seems to keep going up while wage increases are not enough to cover inflation. Especially how gas prices fluctuate so much.

So you expect to be paid when you work? Are you greedy?

Actually no I don't expect to be paid when I work, but with the financial stature of the world it is the only way to get by....

 

[kaz]

Not much to argue about any of that. You are obviously one who does really care and you sound much like my bosses/owners.

My last statement is somewhat contradictory. They have all the statistics about how much people make, pay their employees, and all the information they need about people so I understand why they need to step in and take control in areas. Not everyone is like you, that know how to make the good, honest, well informed decisions.

Better answer, the market keeps them in check. They fail. Government need do nothing

Yes and no. I think there is a huge offset of wealth in this country due to outsourcing and greed. Then the government tries to step in but it affects everyone in the lower tiers more. Food is so damn expensive anymore and everything seems to keep going up while wage increases are not enough to cover inflation. Especially how gas prices fluctuate so much.

So you expect to be paid when you work? Are you greedy?

Actually no I don't expect to be paid when I work, but with the financial stature of the world it is the only way to get by....

Oh, so you're greedy, you only work for money? Why are you so greedy?

 

[rickm19]

Well wealth disparity can hold people back

No kidding, I'm six feet, that held me back from proceeding from high school to college basketball. I have no sense of fashion, that held me back from going into fashion design.

My parents helped a little for undergrad, not a lot after that. I worked nights, weekends and summers to get through undergrad. I worked a full time job at GE sometimes working 12 hours a day 7 days a week so GE would pay for my first Masters. I spent my savings and borrowed money to put myself through my second Masters. I lived below my means the whole time and saved. I see your point though. Now I have more choices and more options. Wow, when I think about it, that really is unfair, isn't it?

No money to obtain materials necessary to experiment and create, no money to enjoy life and do the things that make them happy. Im not saying being wealthy is inherently bad. But the ones that horde the wealth and have an abundance of it can be. Of course wealth come in different forms. But for the ones who own 20 million dollar houses and waste valuable commodities, suck up and waste energy and fuel. When that is being done it drives up the price for all.. That is when it is bad.

What does "hording" even mean? The term is "saving." You accumulate wealth by saving. Do you know despite the Democratic rhetoric, the vast majority of millionaires earned and saved the money themselves, they did not get it from their parents?

I was great at baseball but got held back because the coach wanted to play the gym teachers son over me.. Even though I had twice the batting average and no errors...
It really isn't... When I was going to college I started to realize how unfair the system was. Even though the military was paying for college, I still had to work nights delivering pizza just to make some cash to get by. So I spent all day learning and working and had no free time to even enjoy life. Then they simply classify people as "depressed" and try to give out pills to make it better instead of getting to the core of depression.

Sorry i suck at spelling lol. I just think too many people hoard money and accumulate an unnecessary amount. What is saving good for other that planning for retirement. And why do some people get to retire at 40 when others have to work till 70?
Yes I know they have, but unless you are able to obtain all the knowledge of our forefathers, discover something great and new or cheat people you will never be a millionaire. Me I don't want to be a millionaire and if I ever get there I plan on making sure that wealth goes to people that deserve it while living in a small economical house just big enough to sustain a family.

 

[kaz]

I just think too many people hoard money and accumulate an unnecessary amount

OK, fair enough. So you work to live, but you don't accept money beyond what is necessary, that is why you are not greedy. So how did you decide how much you need? How much money do you turn down exactly so you don't end up with more than you need?

 

[rickm19]

Not much to argue about any of that. You are obviously one who does really care and you sound much like my bosses/owners.

My last statement is somewhat contradictory. They have all the statistics about how much people make, pay their employees, and all the information they need about people so I understand why they need to step in and take control in areas. Not everyone is like you, that know how to make the good, honest, well informed decisions.

Better answer, the market keeps them in check. They fail. Government need do nothing

Yes and no. I think there is a huge offset of wealth in this country due to outsourcing and greed. Then the government tries to step in but it affects everyone in the lower tiers more. Food is so damn expensive anymore and everything seems to keep going up while wage increases are not enough to cover inflation. Especially how gas prices fluctuate so much.

So you expect to be paid when you work? Are you greedy?

Actually no I don't expect to be paid when I work, but with the financial stature of the world it is the only way to get by....

Oh, so you're greedy, you only work for money? Why are you so greedy?

LOL. No I actually enjoy what I do and get paid decently. Don't try to trap me! And I understand most millionaire/billionaires enjoy what they do also. But do they do it because they actually like it or because they like the accumulation of wealth, power and control?

 

[rickm19]

I just think too many people hoard money and accumulate an unnecessary amount

OK, fair enough. So you work to live, but you don't accept money beyond what is necessary, that is why you are not greedy. So how did you decide how much you need? How much money do you turn down exactly so you don't end up with more than you need?

Wellllll I see where you are going with. So I have never really turned down money well unless it is from someone trying to pay for my dinner or gram trying to give me money lol. I donate what I can with my current financial situation. I have managed to buy a small house and own a reliable vehicle. I am trying to save for retirement based on speculated costs of living, when I plan to retire (about 65-70). Social security SHOULD cover most of it if that fund is still around by then so I don't plan on needing much. Whatever money I don't need is donated to church, spent on others that need it and plan on donating my spare time habitat for humanity or whatever else I can find to do. But really I could die tomorrow and all that money I have saved is useless or it will go to my sister and I know she doesn't really need it.

 

[kaz]

Better answer, the market keeps them in check. They fail. Government need do nothing

Yes and no. I think there is a huge offset of wealth in this country due to outsourcing and greed. Then the government tries to step in but it affects everyone in the lower tiers more. Food is so damn expensive anymore and everything seems to keep going up while wage increases are not enough to cover inflation. Especially how gas prices fluctuate so much.

So you expect to be paid when you work? Are you greedy?

Actually no I don't expect to be paid when I work, but with the financial stature of the world it is the only way to get by....

Oh, so you're greedy, you only work for money? Why are you so greedy?

LOL. No I actually enjoy what I do and get paid decently. Don't try to trap me! And I understand most millionaire/billionaires enjoy what they do also. But do they do it because they actually like it or because they like the accumulation of wealth, power and control?

Is it up to you or up to them?

 

[kaz]

I just think too many people hoard money and accumulate an unnecessary amount

OK, fair enough. So you work to live, but you don't accept money beyond what is necessary, that is why you are not greedy. So how did you decide how much you need? How much money do you turn down exactly so you don't end up with more than you need?

Wellllll I see where you are going with. So I have never really turned down money well unless it is from someone trying to pay for my dinner or gram trying to give me money lol. I donate what I can with my current financial situation. I have managed to buy a small house and own a reliable vehicle. I am trying to save for retirement based on speculated costs of living, when I plan to retire (about 65-70). Social security SHOULD cover most of it if that fund is still around by then so I don't plan on needing much. Whatever money I don't need is donated to church, spent on others that need it and plan on donating my spare time habitat for humanity or whatever else I can find to do. But really I could die tomorrow and all that money I have saved is useless or it will go to my sister and I know she doesn't really need it.

Whoa, so you don't turn down any money for doing your job? According to most of the world, you have way, way more money than you need. You clearly greedy by your own argument. So if you are admittedly greedy, you have and spend more than you need, shouldn't you deal with that before you point fingers and criticize other people for having more than you think they need?

 

[rickm19]

Yes and no. I think there is a huge offset of wealth in this country due to outsourcing and greed. Then the government tries to step in but it affects everyone in the lower tiers more. Food is so damn expensive anymore and everything seems to keep going up while wage increases are not enough to cover inflation. Especially how gas prices fluctuate so much.

So you expect to be paid when you work? Are you greedy?

Actually no I don't expect to be paid when I work, but with the financial stature of the world it is the only way to get by....

Oh, so you're greedy, you only work for money? Why are you so greedy?

LOL. No I actually enjoy what I do and get paid decently. Don't try to trap me! And I understand most millionaire/billionaires enjoy what they do also. But do they do it because they actually like it or because they like the accumulation of wealth, power and control?

Is it up to you or up to them?

Well everyone has free will. But I feel like free will has been stripped at the lower levels because of them. So while it is their choice, they are affecting people on levels that are incomprehensible to most. It will always be up to individual to do what they need, want and are capable of. I just think the financial aspect of things limits many and that is why there is so much depression and hardship, along with broken families and so much more.

 

[rickm19]

I just think too many people hoard money and accumulate an unnecessary amount

OK, fair enough. So you work to live, but you don't accept money beyond what is necessary, that is why you are not greedy. So how did you decide how much you need? How much money do you turn down exactly so you don't end up with more than you need?

Wellllll I see where you are going with. So I have never really turned down money well unless it is from someone trying to pay for my dinner or gram trying to give me money lol. I donate what I can with my current financial situation. I have managed to buy a small house and own a reliable vehicle. I am trying to save for retirement based on speculated costs of living, when I plan to retire (about 65-70). Social security SHOULD cover most of it if that fund is still around by then so I don't plan on needing much. Whatever money I don't need is donated to church, spent on others that need it and plan on donating my spare time habitat for humanity or whatever else I can find to do. But really I could die tomorrow and all that money I have saved is useless or it will go to my sister and I know she doesn't really need it.

Whoa, so you don't turn down any money for doing your job? According to most of the world, you have way, way more money than you need. You clearly greedy by your own argument. So if you are admittedly greedy, you have and spend more than you need, shouldn't you deal with that before you point fingers and criticize other people for having more than you think they need?

HAHA why would I turn down money for doing more and getting paid les than most people in my position? I agree and have seen poverty at its core. I have been in 3rd world countries. To me there should be no reason those areas are not brought up to a certain standard of living. If I didn't live here and needed what I need to get by and be happy living amongst the greed it would be different. I have what I need to get by living in this economy and a bit more with making 50k/per. If I had much more it would be going to the poverty stricken nations to improve their quality of living. Trust me I know I am greedy in that aspect and small, self-sustainable houses, that can be shipped anywhere and setup easily has been on my mind for long time I just don't have the resources to do anything about it at this time. So I will gladly point the fingers when I have had that figured out for a long time . That is the only reason I am starting to stand up and voice my opinion.

 

[kaz]

So you expect to be paid when you work? Are you greedy?

Actually no I don't expect to be paid when I work, but with the financial stature of the world it is the only way to get by....

Oh, so you're greedy, you only work for money? Why are you so greedy?

LOL. No I actually enjoy what I do and get paid decently. Don't try to trap me! And I understand most millionaire/billionaires enjoy what they do also. But do they do it because they actually like it or because they like the accumulation of wealth, power and control?

Is it up to you or up to them?

Well everyone has free will. But I feel like free will has been stripped at the lower levels because of them. So while it is their choice, they are affecting people on levels that are incomprehensible to most. It will always be up to individual to do what they need, want and are capable of. I just think the financial aspect of things limits many and that is why there is so much depression and hardship, along with broken families and so much more.

I have to tell you as a career manager. There is a shit load of opportunity out there. Yes, there are some people who have physical, intellectual or emotional handicaps, but most people who have a hard time supporting themselves have that issue for one reason. They don't work hard

 

[kaz]

Whoa, so you don't turn down any money for doing your job? According to most of the world, you have way, way more money than you need. You clearly greedy by your own argument. So if you are admittedly greedy, you have and spend more than you need, shouldn't you deal with that before you point fingers and criticize other people for having more than you think they need?

HAHA why would I turn down money for doing more and getting paid les than most people in my position?

Um...why are you advocating other people do that?

I agree and have seen poverty at its core. I have been in 3rd world countries. To me there should be no reason those areas are not brought up to a certain standard of living. If I didn't live here and needed what I need to get by and be happy living amongst the greed it would be different. I have what I need to get by living in this economy and a bit more with making 50k/per. If I had much more it would be going to the poverty stricken nations to improve their quality of living. Trust me I know I am greedy in that aspect and small, self-sustainable houses, that can be shipped anywhere and setup easily has been on my mind for long time I just don't have the resources to do anything about it at this time. So I will gladly point the fingers when I have had that figured out for a long time . That is the only reason I am starting to stand up and voice my opinion.

OK, but you aren't doing anything about it. You are advocating other people not earn more than they need and they be stopped by government if they do. Yet you admittedly earn more than you need according to the majority of the world, and you forgo nothing. Sure you give a few dollars to charity, the rich give a lot more, so you aren't ahead there.

Why is it up to you that other people should be stopped from earning more than you think they need when you don't do anything about you earning more than you need?