What is the goal of capitalism?

[Toddsterpatriot]

Anyone can google all of the bailouts and subsidies paid to the private sector. The point is that capitalism often gets assistance from the "nanny state", to stay in business. It's not just bailouts, but many different subsidies, grants..etc. All types of help, and of course you're all for it. You'll never criticize these capitalists for asking for government assistance and building their success upon that, while if I say the government should encourage the working class to organize worker-owned cooperatives and provide them with needed funding, you'll start complaining.

Please, give me a hint when these trillion-dollar bailouts happened.

You'll never criticize these capitalists for asking for government assistance

Sure, I will.
Hey, capitalists, stop asking for money from the government!!!

Watch this!
Hey, government, stop wasting tax money by handing it out to your friends in business!!!!!

 

[Red Front]

Please, give me a hint when these trillion-dollar bailouts happened.

You'll never criticize these capitalists for asking for government assistance

Sure, I will.
Hey, capitalists, stop asking for money from the government!!!

Watch this!
Hey, government, stop wasting tax money by handing it out to your friends in business!!!!!

Without the bailouts and government interventions, the economy would collapse and cause chaos, maybe even a war. You obviously don't understand what's at stake when there's a government bailout.

Some of the most notable federal bailouts in recent U.S. history:

The Great Depression (1930s): The Reconstruction Finance Corporation was established to provide financial support to banks, railroads, and other industries.

1. Chrysler Corporation Loan Guarantee Act of 1979: A bailout of Chrysler Corporation to save it from bankruptcy.
2. Savings and Loan Crisis (1989): The Financial Institutions Reform, Recovery, and Enforcement Act of 1989 included a bailout of savings and loan associations affected by the crisis.
3. The Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) of 2008: A major response to the financial crisis of 2007-2008, aimed at stabilizing the country's banking system. It included bailouts for major banks and other financial institutions.
4. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009: While not a bailout in the strict sense, it was a stimulus package aimed at recovering from the 2008 financial crisis, including measures that indirectly supported various industries and sectors.
5. Automotive Industry Bailout (2008-2009): General Motors and Chrysler received funds to prevent their collapse during the financial crisis.
6. Airlines Bailouts (Post-9/11 and during the COVID-19 pandemic): The airline industry received federal assistance following the September 11 attacks and again in 2020 as part of the CARES Act during the COVID-19 pandemic.
7. CARES Act (2020): A comprehensive relief package to mitigate the economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, which included direct payments to individuals, loans, and grants to businesses, and additional support for state and local governments.

State and local government bailouts are more varied and numerous, often involving financial assistance to municipalities in fiscal distress or specific grants to support local industries and services. The details and scopes of these bailouts can vary widely based on local economic conditions, industry presence, and political decisions.

For the most current and specific bailouts, especially those at the state and local levels, it would be necessary to consult official government releases, financial news sources, or specific studies focusing on government financial interventions.

I do agree that there are industries and hence companies that are "too big to fail", because when they fall to the ground, they take thousands, or millions of jobs with them, including vital sectors of our national infrastructure. That's the problem when such industries are in the hands of greedy, stupid capitalists (rich little tyrants unaccountable to anyone).

Capitalism has proven to always lead to economic recessions and depressions, cronyism, plutocracy, monopolies and oligopolies, gross inequality, mass poverty, and foreign imperialist wars in pursuit of profits and control of resources and markets. That's endemic to capitalism.

I haven't even mentioned how all of the above undermines human progress in the area of technology and society, as far as how we see and treat each other. There's no more need for markets when advanced automation and artificial intelligence are available. We can meet all of our needs without them.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Without the bailouts and government interventions, the economy would collapse and cause chaos, maybe even a war. You obviously don't understand what's at stake when there's a government bailout.

Some of the most notable federal bailouts in recent U.S. history:

The Great Depression (1930s): The Reconstruction Finance Corporation was established to provide financial support to banks, railroads, and other industries.

1. Chrysler Corporation Loan Guarantee Act of 1979: A bailout of Chrysler Corporation to save it from bankruptcy.
2. Savings and Loan Crisis (1989): The Financial Institutions Reform, Recovery, and Enforcement Act of 1989 included a bailout of savings and loan associations affected by the crisis.
3. The Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) of 2008: A major response to the financial crisis of 2007-2008, aimed at stabilizing the country's banking system. It included bailouts for major banks and other financial institutions.
4. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009: While not a bailout in the strict sense, it was a stimulus package aimed at recovering from the 2008 financial crisis, including measures that indirectly supported various industries and sectors.
5. Automotive Industry Bailout (2008-2009): General Motors and Chrysler received funds to prevent their collapse during the financial crisis.
6. Airlines Bailouts (Post-9/11 and during the COVID-19 pandemic): The airline industry received federal assistance following the September 11 attacks and again in 2020 as part of the CARES Act during the COVID-19 pandemic.
7. CARES Act (2020): A comprehensive relief package to mitigate the economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, which included direct payments to individuals, loans, and grants to businesses, and additional support for state and local governments.

State and local government bailouts are more varied and numerous, often involving financial assistance to municipalities in fiscal distress or specific grants to support local industries and services. The details and scopes of these bailouts can vary widely based on local economic conditions, industry presence, and political decisions.

For the most current and specific bailouts, especially those at the state and local levels, it would be necessary to consult official government releases, financial news sources, or specific studies focusing on government financial interventions.

I do agree that there are industries and hence companies that are "too big to fail", because when they fall to the ground, they take thousands, or millions of jobs with them, including vital sectors of our national infrastructure. That's the problem when such industries are in the hands of greedy, stupid capitalists (rich little tyrants unaccountable to anyone).

Capitalism has proven to always lead to economic recessions and depressions, cronyism, plutocracy, monopolies and oligopolies, gross inequality, mass poverty, and foreign imperialist wars in pursuit of profits and control of resources and markets. That's endemic to capitalism.

I haven't even mentioned how all of the above undermines human progress in the area of technology and society, as far as how we see and treat each other. There's no more need for markets when advanced automation and artificial intelligence are available. We can meet all of our needs without them.

You said trillions. None of those are close.

How are 6 & 7 the fault of capitalism?

 

[Red Front]

You said trillions. None of those are close.

How are 6 & 7 the fault of capitalism?

Yes, trillions of dollars just with covid alone. It demonstrates that capitalism can't survive without socialism or public intervention in the "free market". That's my point. Capitalism doesn't function "freely", independently of government-developed and maintained infrastructure and money. You're always crapping on the working class for proposing any project or program that involves the government investing in their interests or lives while being completely complicit and friendly towards the government investing in the rich.

Capitalists, those who are in pursuit of private profits and power are always welcome to avail themselves of government bailouts, subsidies, grants, and whatever else they can get from Uncle Sam. Still, in your estimation, the working class can go to hell.

According to Todd most members of society aren't worthy of the same care and attention from their government (a government created to serve and protect their interests), even when they organize projects that will develop and expand national infrastructure to improve their lives and develop their communities. You see that as a waste of government resources and relying on the "nanny state". You start appealing to Cold War - McCarthyist - Red Scare Propaganda.

"Yeah, that really worked in the Soviet Union, Huh? Durrrrrrr"​

Just stupid, silly, hypocritical, dishonest, polemics against any government investment in the working class. The capitalists have to be the middlemen and brokers, the recipients of all government assistance and investment, because as soon as a working-class person or organization serving their own interests, receives any "unearned grace" or attention, any money whatsoever from the government, that's an affront to our American "work-ethic" and nothing more than lazy, nanny-state, Soviet Union/Stalin/Gulags, "ghetto-welfare".

"You freaking bums, just want to live off the government. You don't want to work, who do you think you are asking for the government to employ the unemployed, finding something productive for them to do, allowing them to generate an income. Who the hell do you think you are that the government owes you anything and would help you and your fellow working-class Americans to start worker-owned cooperatives. Who the hell do you think you are that the government should recognize that every American citizen should have a right to basic housing, healthcare, an education and a job. Who do you think you are bucko, that you would expect the government to come in and fund social projects or programs, you lazy freaking, commie-bum, Stalin, Gulags you son of biatch...."

But according to Todd, all of this isn't capitalism sucking the teat of Mother Soviet Russia:

Download results as CSV or XML or Save your search (Click here for information on download subscriptions)

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,502,641,455	957
2	Intel	$8,360,460,516	128
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,550,136,090	786
5	Micron Technology	$6,856,681,915	19
6	Amazon.com	$5,802,700,434	455
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
11	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	216
12	Sempra Energy	$3,878,692,264	51
13	NRG Energy	$3,405,383,876	264
14	Venture Global LNG	$3,285,883,566	6
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
20	Walt Disney	$2,483,328,762	255
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
23	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
24	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
25	Samsung	$2,178,196,443	83
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Toyota	$2,111,010,689	239
28	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
29	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Comcast	$2,032,609,740	398
32	Paramount Global	$1,973,256,854	336
33	Brookfield Corporation	$1,969,735,585	287
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,906,554,975	227
35	Apple Inc.	$1,900,308,359	63
36	Nissan	$1,892,314,165	98
37	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,838,569,373	1,194
38	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
39	General Electric	$1,779,446,759	998
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,762,150,650	1,151
41	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
42	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
43	Energy Transfer	$1,680,794,666	156
44	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
45	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
46	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,564,430,563	64
47	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$1,536,054,012	5
48	IBM Corp.	$1,519,901,697	368
49	General Atomics	$1,505,785,957	111
50	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
51	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
52	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
53	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
54	Lockheed Martin	$1,337,674,082	323
55	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
56	Northrop Grumman	$1,275,514,883	284
57	Corning Inc.	$1,269,303,359	400
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,166,657,132	781
61	SK Holdings	$1,081,550,283	9
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	CF Industries	$982,271,715	129
68	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
69	SkyWest	$922,686,541	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	59
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$891,705,089	592
73	LG	$883,168,466	88
74	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
75	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	92
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$796,947,128	953
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$772,994,690	218
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$766,205,550	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$676,761,373	498
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	632
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
97	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
98	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79
99	Eli Lilly	$601,741,368	77

Todd will just say: "Rich people and their for-profit corporations/dictatorships (little tyrannies) should get plenty of help and we should privatize all of the resources of this country, placing it all in the hands of billionaires, providing them with plenty of public funds, but not the working class, average Joe Americans, they can go to hell. They can't organize or plan anything worthy of public investment, that will benefit society, so we'll just subsidize the rich and powerful".

​

The truth is and will become clearer as advanced automation and artificial intelligence continue to take jobs, that we don't need capitalism anymore. We can automate every facet of production from extracting raw materials from the mines to transporting the materials to processing plants and processing those precious minerals and then transporting them to the factories..etc. From mining to the distribution of the final product to the consumer, in easily accessible stores around the country, there's no need for capitalists or their markets. The logistics and accounting of design, production, and distribution can be nearly, entirely, intelligently automated.

Society can organize human labor without the need for wages or a "labor market", making sure everyone's standard of living is high and rewarding, full of purpose, mission, and importance. We don't need capitalism, at all in the 21st century. Capitalists are unnecessary middlemen, a bunch of leeches. We don't need them. Working class Americans will have more of everything, in a non-profit, more democratic, high-tech, practically fully automated economy. Our national system of production will provide much more for less work.

Will people still work? Yes. Human beings will always have to supervise those robots, that advanced system of automation will always need some human input and sometimes even human intervention, if and when it screws up. We need skilled people, able to manually do a job when the robots fail. However, imagine working 20 hours weekly rather than 40 or 60 hours, and your standard of living will be higher than it is today.

Everything will be cleaner, safer, embued with more purpose, mission, meaning, social interaction, human solidarity, yet exciting, and just more fun. Everything will be better than it is today. Not perfect, not utopia, just better. Is better good enough for you? It is for me and millions of other Americans. I don't write for Todds, I write for people like you. We need to get this message out to the American people, before its too late. Let's not plunge into techno-feudalism, a society where only the rich ruling elite own all of the robots and the working class are reduced to the compost heap. Watch the films Elysium or Soylent Green. We don't want that.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yes, trillions of dollars just with covid alone. It demonstrates that capitalism can't survive without socialism or public intervention in the "free market". That's my point. Capitalism doesn't function "freely", independently of government-developed and maintained infrastructure and money. You're always crapping on the working class for proposing any project or program that involves the government investing in their interests or lives while being completely complicit and friendly towards the government investing in the rich.

Capitalists, those who are in pursuit of private profits and power are always welcome to avail themselves of government bailouts, subsidies, grants, and whatever else they can get from Uncle Sam. Still, in your estimation, the working class can go to hell.

According to Todd most members of society aren't worthy of the same care and attention from their government (a government created to serve and protect their interests), even when they organize projects that will develop and expand national infrastructure to improve their lives and develop their communities. You see that as a waste of government resources and relying on the "nanny state". You start appealing to Cold War - McCarthyist - Red Scare Propaganda.

"Yeah, that really worked in the Soviet Union, Huh? Durrrrrrr"​

Just stupid, silly, hypocritical, dishonest, polemics against any government investment in the working class. The capitalists have to be the middlemen and brokers, the recipients of all government assistance and investment, because as soon as a working-class person or organization serving their own interests, receives any "unearned grace" or attention, any money whatsoever from the government, that's an affront to our American "work-ethic" and nothing more than lazy, nanny-state, Soviet Union/Stalin/Gulags, "ghetto-welfare".

"You freaking bums, just want to live off the government. You don't want to work, who do you think you are asking for the government to employ the unemployed, finding something productive for them to do, allowing them to generate an income. Who the hell do you think you are that the government owes you anything and would help you and your fellow working-class Americans to start worker-owned cooperatives. Who the hell do you think you are that the government should recognize that every American citizen should have a right to basic housing, healthcare, an education and a job. Who do you think you are bucko, that you would expect the government to come in and fund social projects or programs, you lazy freaking, commie-bum, Stalin, Gulags you son of biatch...."

But according to Todd, all of this isn't capitalism sucking the teat of Mother Soviet Russia:

Download results as CSV or XML or Save your search (Click here for information on download subscriptions)

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,502,641,455	957
2	Intel	$8,360,460,516	128
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,550,136,090	786
5	Micron Technology	$6,856,681,915	19
6	Amazon.com	$5,802,700,434	455
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
11	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	216
12	Sempra Energy	$3,878,692,264	51
13	NRG Energy	$3,405,383,876	264
14	Venture Global LNG	$3,285,883,566	6
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
20	Walt Disney	$2,483,328,762	255
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
23	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
24	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
25	Samsung	$2,178,196,443	83
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Toyota	$2,111,010,689	239
28	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
29	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Comcast	$2,032,609,740	398
32	Paramount Global	$1,973,256,854	336
33	Brookfield Corporation	$1,969,735,585	287
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,906,554,975	227
35	Apple Inc.	$1,900,308,359	63
36	Nissan	$1,892,314,165	98
37	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,838,569,373	1,194
38	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
39	General Electric	$1,779,446,759	998
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,762,150,650	1,151
41	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
42	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
43	Energy Transfer	$1,680,794,666	156
44	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
45	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
46	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,564,430,563	64
47	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$1,536,054,012	5
48	IBM Corp.	$1,519,901,697	368
49	General Atomics	$1,505,785,957	111
50	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
51	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
52	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
53	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
54	Lockheed Martin	$1,337,674,082	323
55	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
56	Northrop Grumman	$1,275,514,883	284
57	Corning Inc.	$1,269,303,359	400
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,166,657,132	781
61	SK Holdings	$1,081,550,283	9
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	CF Industries	$982,271,715	129
68	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
69	SkyWest	$922,686,541	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	59
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$891,705,089	592
73	LG	$883,168,466	88
74	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
75	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	92
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$796,947,128	953
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$772,994,690	218
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$766,205,550	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$676,761,373	498
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	632
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
97	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
98	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79
99	Eli Lilly	$601,741,368	77

Todd will just say: "Rich people and their for-profit corporations/dictatorships (little tyrannies) should get plenty of help and we should privatize all of the resources of this country, placing it all in the hands of billionaires, providing them with plenty of public funds, but not the working class, average Joe Americans, they can go to hell. They can't organize or plan anything worthy of public investment, that will benefit society, so we'll just subsidize the rich and powerful".

​

The truth is and will become clearer as advanced automation and artificial intelligence continue to take jobs, that we don't need capitalism anymore. We can automate every facet of production from extracting raw materials from the mines to transporting the materials to processing plants and processing those precious minerals and then transporting them to the factories..etc. From mining to the distribution of the final product to the consumer, in easily accessible stores around the country, there's no need for capitalists or their markets. The logistics and accounting of design, production, and distribution can be nearly, entirely, intelligently automated.

Society can organize human labor without the need for wages or a "labor market", making sure everyone's standard of living is high and rewarding, full of purpose, mission, and importance. We don't need capitalism, at all in the 21st century. Capitalists are unnecessary middlemen, a bunch of leeches. We don't need them. Working class Americans will have more of everything, in a non-profit, more democratic, high-tech, practically fully automated economy. Our national system of production will provide much more for less work.

Will people still work? Yes. Human beings will always have to supervise those robots, that advanced system of automation will always need some human input and sometimes even human intervention, if and when it screws up. We need skilled people, able to manually do a job when the robots fail. However, imagine working 20 hours weekly rather than 40 or 60 hours, and your standard of living will be higher than it is today.

Everything will be cleaner, safer, embued with more purpose, mission, meaning, social interaction, human solidarity, safer yet exciting, and just more fun. Everything will be better than it is today. Not perfect, not utopia, just better. Is better good enough for you? It is for me and millions of other Americans.

Yes, trillions of dollars just with covid alone.

You said trillions, to bail out the excesses of capitalism or the failures of capitalism, or some such blather. Covid wasn't caused by capitalism, sorry Vlad. You lied.

Commies are really bad at math.

 

[Stryder50]

In our Capitalist America we really do have a form of slavery in states with really low minimum wages for jobs. Talk to any minimum wage worker trying to survive off that income, it's next to impossible. They are being paid slave wages. My wife has been a minimum wage worker for decades. When I married her she was homeless. She had a full time job, but slept on the streets because she didn't make enough money to pay rent or anything. She had more debt than income. Her debt to income ratio was like at 80%.

In a way she was being paid slave wages as a fast food worker and this could be called a form of slavery that fast food joints often use on their workers to keep them working. It is exploitation at a massive scale in the USA. More states should follow California and raise wages for fast food workers, end the barbaric slave wages that seem to put so many fast food workers in a form of slaverly they can't seem to get out of. Why they even bother to show up for work if the job pays so little that it seems they are working for free and can't pay their bills?

1) General rule of economics and business is you pay what you need to keep a worker versus what it would cost to replace (with training expenses) them.

2) Your "wife" was in great need to increase her job skill range to be able to get a job that would pay more. Or move to a location where her low job skills paid what supported the local cost of living prices.

3) If an employer pays more to his/her workers than that proportion of the costs of the goods/services they provided, then the prices must be raised in order to cover expenses and keep from having the employer go bankrupt and out of business, hence ending whatever jobs they did provide. Which means they will have to raise prices to pay for costs of such. Which might result in lost revenue/income if the competition can undercut his prices and that could mean the employer's operation closing out of business and their workers out of a job.

4) I continue to find it disturbing and disappointing how ignorant the young socialist indoctrinated like your self tend to be on basic economics. If your wife's employer paid her and her co-workers more, than the p[rice of the goods/services he provided would have to have risen to keep his business from going broke~bankrupt and hence no more jobs for your wife and her co-workers.

Would you have been willing to pay $3.50 for a burger that used to cost $2.00 in order for your wife* to get paid a dollar more per hour ??? Do you think the customers of her employer would have been willing to pay the increased price or would they have gone elsewhere that offered a cheaper price ???

5) "Capitalist America", or "capitalist" any other Nation/Ethnic/Culture/Social Construct means a system that ensures costs of providing a good or service are covered and enough extra produced to provide the profit = Reward to the Provider for having provided such. (Versus having not bothered at all to do so!)

For example, you strike me as the sort who will not provide the basic, or extra of labor and expense, to provide a good or service to others that would require more out of your pocket than from theirs in return for what you provide. i.e. I doubt you would be willing to do something for others without at least covering costs if not at least making a slight profit for your efforts and expenses, and risks.

But hey! ... I'm use to seeing your sort as the hypocrites you are, expecting others to do more, above and beyond than what you yourself are willing to do, especially for your fellow humankind. Which is what makes sleaze like yourself the scum you are.

 

[Red Front]

Yes, trillions of dollars just with covid alone.

You said trillions, to bail out the excesses of capitalism or the failures of capitalism, or some such blather. Covid wasn't caused by capitalism, sorry Vlad. You lied.

Commies are really bad at math.

Trillions of dollars are spent in public funds serving the interests of capitalist imperialists, whether to bail them out in an emergency or to expand and protect their market share.

​

Capitalism in its current imperialist form and stage, endangers all life on this planet and undermines human progress and development.

Capitalist excesses lead to economic disasters and worsen emergencies like COVID-19. If our research and development of vaccines weren't motivated by profits, we would've developed a vaccine for Covid, years before the pandemic. The number of people who got infected and died due to capitalism's need and insatiable pursuit of profits in the US increased, due to the lack of ventilator machines, safety equipment for medical staff, and the lack of masks available to the public. The capitalists gutted much of our nation's manufacturing base, starting in the 1980s, making us dependent on China for much of our parts and equipment.

Warehouses storing enough ventilators, or hospital safety equipment to respond to future national emergencies, don't exist in a for-profit economy based on Wall Street and Finance, rather than manufacturing (our economy despite being capitalist, at least was based on American manufacturing/MADE IN THE USA, after WW2, until the right-wing Reaganites made us dependents of foreign manufacturing/imported goods, starting mostly in the 1980s).

Capitalists only spend money to make money, and spending money to store emergency supplies for a national crisis, isn't even considered by capitalists and their cronies in government. The government which is supposed to serve the public good, serves the vested interests of capitalists and is under their influence and control, hence the government fails the public by not addressing its needs. Todd only cares about the "needs" of wealthy capitalists. He doesn't give a poop about anyone but the rich and powerful ruling elites.

The need for everyone to remain working in the workplace in the middle of the pandemic and the lack of access to alternative treatments for covid from re-purposed drugs and other protocols, was all caused by the profiteering nature of our economy. Capitalists see dollar signs in a crisis and will make the situation worse by demanding higher prices and encouraging the creation of distressed assets they can purchase for pennies on the dollar. The capitalists fly in like birds of prey, or scavenging vultures, to consume the victims.

Capitalism needs to go the way of the dodo. We don't need it anymore.

 

[Red Front]

Toddsterpatriot:​

CAPITALISM, AUTOMATING ITSELF TO OBLIVION.​

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

Trillions of dollars are spent in public funds serving the interests of capitalist imperialists, whether to bail them out in an emergency or to expand and protect their market share.

​

Capitalism in its current imperialist form and stage, endangers all life on this planet and undermines human progress and development.

Capitalist excesses lead to economic disasters and worsen emergencies like COVID-19. If our research and development of vaccines weren't motivated by profits, we would've developed a vaccine for Covid, years before the pandemic. The number of people who got infected and died due to capitalism's need and insatiable pursuit of profits in the US increased, due to the lack of ventilator machines, safety equipment for medical staff, and the lack of masks available to the public. The capitalists gutted much of our nation's manufacturing base, starting in the 1980s, making us dependent on China for much of our parts and equipment.

Warehouses storing enough ventilators, or hospital safety equipment to respond to future national emergencies, don't exist in a for-profit economy based on Wall Street and Finance, rather than manufacturing (our economy despite being capitalist, at least was based on American manufacturing/MADE IN THE USA, after WW2, until the right-wing Reaganites made us dependents of foreign manufacturing/imported goods, starting mostly in the 1980s).

Capitalists only spend money to make money, and spending money to store emergency supplies for a national crisis, isn't even considered by capitalists and their cronies in government. The government which is supposed to serve the public good, serves the vested interests of capitalists and is under their influence and control, hence the government fails the public by not addressing its needs. Todd only cares about the "needs" of wealthy capitalists. He doesn't give a poop about anyone but the rich and powerful ruling elites.

The need for everyone to remain working in the workplace in the middle of the pandemic and the lack of access to alternative treatments for covid from re-purposed drugs and other protocols, was all caused by the profiteering nature of our economy. Capitalists see dollar signs in a crisis and will make the situation worse by demanding higher prices and encouraging the creation of distressed assets they can purchase for pennies on the dollar. The capitalists fly in like birds of prey, or scavenging vultures, to consume the victims.

Capitalism needs to go the way of the dodo. We don't need it anymore.

Capitalism isn't an ideology you indoctrinated moron and your fucking ideology will not rise from the ashes....

 

[Red Front]

1) The general rule of economics and business is you pay what you need to keep a worker versus what it would cost to replace (with training expenses) them.

You should be more specific. In capitalist, for-profit MARKET economics, employers (the owners of the means of production/facilities/equipment.etc) rent (i.e. purchase, "hire") human labor power, paying them wages to produce and deliver goods and services to the market for a profit. With very few exceptions, the "type" or class of human beings who you are renting for eight, ten, twelve hours + daily to produce and deliver goods and services to the market for you, are the same people who are purchasing your products (they're also your customers). They're the market. You make a profit when you give your workers less than what they're producing for you as their master.

Adam Smith, the father of capitalism wrote:

"What are the common wages of labour, depends every where upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labour."(The Wealth Of Nations, Book I, Chapter VIII )

Master = Employer/Exploiter/Owner/Little Tyrant - Fieflord vs Workmen = Employee/Exploitee/Sucker/Serf/Wage Slave.

​

2) Your "wife" was in great need to increase her job skill range to be able to get a job that would pay more. Or move to a location where her low job skills paid what supported the local cost of living prices.

All labor requires skill, some more than others. It's all important, everyone living in a modern, civilized society should have the right to at least the basics of life. There is a need for affordable housing in every community. If the private sector refuses to meet this need the government should come in and provide affordable housing with good security and social services.

As a business owner, do you want your labor far away from your business, because people can't afford to live near their workplace? Is that ultimately in your interest as a wealthy business owner-dictator? No, of course not, you want your employees (i.e. serfs, wage-slaves), near you my lord, not having to drive 40 minutes, or 2 hours to get to work. Riding two buses and the train, to get to work. Nonsense. You want them close and happy (they'll work better, producing more for you).

That's why all American citizens should have the right to at least basic housing and there should be price controls when it comes to rent. You can't charge whatever you want when renting out your urban, city apartment. Adam Smith wasn't too fond of landlords. Read what he had to say about them in Wealth Of Nations. He didn't like them at all.

Education should also be a human right in this country, hence everyone will have the education and the skills to get the best-paying jobs possible. Right-wingers need to get out of the way and allow these types of government programs and institutions to function, with the funding that they need to serve the public good:

Job Corps | Careers Begin Here

Job Corps is the largest free residential education and job training program for young adults ages 16-24. We connect you with the skills and education you need to get the career you want!

www.jobcorps.gov

​

Get out of the way and let people actualize their fullest potential, with all of the resources the government has for them. Stop trying to defund all of the programs, that help people improve their lives. GET OUT OF THE WAY!

3) If an employer pays more to his/her workers than that proportion of the costs of the goods/services they provided, then the prices must be raised in order to cover expenses and keep from having the employer go bankrupt and out of business, hence ending whatever jobs they did provide. Which means they will have to raise prices to pay for costs of such. Which might result in lost revenue/income if the competition can undercut his prices and that could mean the employer's operation closing out of business and their workers out of a job.

It's often the case that employers can pay their workers more and still make a good profit. That's why employees should always have the right (protected by Uncle Sam), to unionize and negotiate their terms of employment with their employers (masters, exploiters, powerful wealthy capitalists), collectively, as a community or group of people with a common interest.

There's strength in numbers, ask the capitalists, and they'll agree. That's why they always unionize their efforts in the form of chambers of commerce, industry associations, guilds, freaking super PACs, non-profit front organizations/NGOs, think tanks staffed by academics and analysts from top universities, and armies of lobbyists. Those masters sure know how to organize and unionize for their own vested interests, and the working class should do the same. Whoever doesn't like that can go suck an egg.

4) I continue to find it disturbing and disappointing how ignorant the young socialist indoctrinated like your self tend to be on basic economics. If your wife's employer paid her and her co-workers more, than the p[rice of the goods/services he provided would have to have risen to keep his business from going broke~bankrupt and hence no more jobs for your wife and her co-workers.

Not necessarily.

Would you have been willing to pay $3.50 for a burger that used to cost $2.00 in order for your wife* to get paid a dollar more per hour ??? Do you think the customers of her employer would have been willing to pay the increased price or would they have gone elsewhere that offered a cheaper price ???

That's a silly exaggeration. She can make the extra dollar and the burger can remain the same price. The franchise owner still makes a great income and lives like a wealthy millionaire, while his employees are better paid, happier, healthier, more productive, and have more money to spend at his store after work. If all capitalists think this way, then the workers from other businesses are making more money and they start eating at your fast-food restaurant daily for lunch or at least two times weekly, whereas before they hardly ate in restaurants because they couldn't afford to.

When I was younger I worked security at a Double Tree Hotel in Miami, Florida. Back then, I was making $8.75 hourly, and then I became a manager and started making $12.50 hourly. WOW! What did I do with that extra money? I started eating more at the hotel and the Burger King across the street. Pay employees more, they spend more.

Paying workers more can translate into more sales, and more customers eating at your restaurant. That's true economics, which you apparently are oblivious to. Amazingly, a communist has to teach you capitalist economics.

5) "Capitalist America", or "capitalist" any other Nation/Ethnic/Culture/Social Construct means a system that ensures costs of providing a good or service are covered and enough extra produced to provide the profit = Reward to the Provider for having provided such. (Versus having not bothered at all to do so!)

The provider or producer of the goods and services that are being sold in the marketplace isn't just the wealthy owner of the business but his or her employees as well. The employees are probably, most likely, the ones doing most of the work, to produce and deliver the goods and services, not the owner, who may be at the country club daily playing golf or drinking a piña colada by the pool getting a suntan. Not all business owners are like that, some work just as hard, if not harder than their employees. However, that doesn't erase the fact that mass production is a social endeavor, not a private one. It "takes a village" to produce "stuff". A team of dedicated workers, not just one rich dude.

For example, you strike me as the sort who will not provide the basic, or extra of labor and expense, to provide a good or service to others that would require more out of your pocket than from theirs in return for what you provide. i.e. I doubt you would be willing to do something for others without at least covering costs if not at least making a slight profit for your efforts and expenses, and risks.

The workers are already producing more than they're paid. That's the foundation of the capitalism-racket. Producing more than you're paid by your master employer, who has you by the gonads.

Working-class people are allowing capitalists to exist when they don't have to. Capitalists are unnecessary middlemen, not needed because the workers, who do all of the work, can own the productive enterprise collectively, in a cooperative. Their government (the government the people created to serve them), can ensure that workers collectively own the businesses or productive enterprises that they work for and run them through a democratic system of management. Capitalists can go fly a kite. We don't need them.

However, let me not be so dramatic. I'll try to be nice. The employees are already doing most of the work for the owner, so to pay them a few dollars more so they can have a better life and even work better, happier, without so much anxiety and problems due to scarcity of resources, is just common sense. You're going to have a better business if you pay your workers a living-wage, a wage that they can live comfortably on, without wondering how they're going to pay their rent or put enough food on the table.

If the lords of capital want to be greedy, that's your loss as a capitalist (or as a lover and fan of capitalism), because the more capitalists behave as you're describing, the closer we are to a socialist revolution. When the working class experiences enough pain and suffering as a result of capitalist-greed, the pitchforks come out. The turd hits the fan.

But hey! ... I'm use to seeing your sort as the hypocrites you are, expecting others to do more, above and beyond than what you yourself are willing to do, especially for your fellow humankind. Which is what makes sleaze like yourself the scum you are.

It's ironic that a capitalist leech like you who lives off of other people's labor, is accusing others of expecting others to do more for them than they're willing to do for others. You're the epidemy of laziness, living off of other people's sweat, tears, and blood, like a vampire. Advanced automation and artificial intelligence is going to eliminate capitalism and capitalists in the not-too-distant future, watch and see. Why do you think Elon Musk is so scared?

He's Pooping.​

 

[Red Front]

Capitalism isn't an ideology you indoctrinated moron and your fucking ideology will not rise from the ashes....

View attachment 925953

Socialism is inevitable, you can't stop it due to advanced automation and artificial intelligence. Working-class people are going to rise and take control of the means of production, either legally through a peaceful, legal-process of reform or through a violent revolution. The American people will collectively own all of the robots, all of the automation and artificial intelligence will be in the hands of the American public, managed by their democratic government. You might as well join us now because the future is SOCIALIST/COMMUNIST = DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Trillions of dollars are spent in public funds serving the interests of capitalist imperialists, whether to bail them out in an emergency or to expand and protect their market share.

​

Capitalism in its current imperialist form and stage, endangers all life on this planet and undermines human progress and development.

Capitalist excesses lead to economic disasters and worsen emergencies like COVID-19. If our research and development of vaccines weren't motivated by profits, we would've developed a vaccine for Covid, years before the pandemic. The number of people who got infected and died due to capitalism's need and insatiable pursuit of profits in the US increased, due to the lack of ventilator machines, safety equipment for medical staff, and the lack of masks available to the public. The capitalists gutted much of our nation's manufacturing base, starting in the 1980s, making us dependent on China for much of our parts and equipment.

Warehouses storing enough ventilators, or hospital safety equipment to respond to future national emergencies, don't exist in a for-profit economy based on Wall Street and Finance, rather than manufacturing (our economy despite being capitalist, at least was based on American manufacturing/MADE IN THE USA, after WW2, until the right-wing Reaganites made us dependents of foreign manufacturing/imported goods, starting mostly in the 1980s).

Capitalists only spend money to make money, and spending money to store emergency supplies for a national crisis, isn't even considered by capitalists and their cronies in government. The government which is supposed to serve the public good, serves the vested interests of capitalists and is under their influence and control, hence the government fails the public by not addressing its needs. Todd only cares about the "needs" of wealthy capitalists. He doesn't give a poop about anyone but the rich and powerful ruling elites.

The need for everyone to remain working in the workplace in the middle of the pandemic and the lack of access to alternative treatments for covid from re-purposed drugs and other protocols, was all caused by the profiteering nature of our economy. Capitalists see dollar signs in a crisis and will make the situation worse by demanding higher prices and encouraging the creation of distressed assets they can purchase for pennies on the dollar. The capitalists fly in like birds of prey, or scavenging vultures, to consume the victims.

Capitalism needs to go the way of the dodo. We don't need it anymore.

Trillions of dollars are spent in public funds serving the interests of capitalist imperialists, whether to bail them out in an emergency or to expand and protect their market share.

Show me. Show the trillions spent to bailout the banks after the mortgage crisis.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The workers are already producing more than they're paid. That's the foundation of the capitalism-racket. Producing more than you're paid by your master employer, who has you by the gonads.

Producing using stuff, right?
Stuff owned by the employer, right?
Doesn't the owner get to make money from his stuff?

 

[Red Front]

Trillions of dollars are spent in public funds serving the interests of capitalist imperialists, whether to bail them out in an emergency or to expand and protect their market share.

Show me. Show the trillions spent to bailout the banks after the mortgage crisis.

The US government has spent trillions throughout our history, bailing out, subsidizing, and colluding with capitalists to fill their coffers and maintain control of resources and markets. etc. I've already presented more than ample evidence for that. You can deny it, but who cares? I don't care how you feel about anything I've said.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The US government has spent trillions throughout our history, bailing out, subsidizing, and colluding with capitalists to fill their coffers and maintain control of resources and markets. etc. I've already presented more than ample evidence for that. You can deny it, but who cares? I sure don't care how you feel about anything I've said.

Cool story bro. Now prove the trillions spent bailing out capitalism. Start with 2008.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

This is just a philosophical question. Is there a goal for capitalism at all? Is it to maximize personal liberty or production? or is it to maximize well being?

Deliver higher quality for lower cost while competing away extraordinary returns

 

[Red Front]

Producing using stuff, right?
Stuff owned by the employer, right?
Doesn't the owner get to make money from his stuff?

In a market, capitalist-run economy, of course. I never argued against capitalists making a profit, what I do say is that full-time workers need to be paid a living wage, and their rights must be respected.

 

[Red Front]

Cool story bro. Now prove the trillions spent bailing out capitalism. Start with 2008.

You've taken my statements out of context and conveniently ignored or missed the points that I'm making about how capitalism, relies heavily upon public funds and infrastructure. There's no such thing as a "free market" or the "invisible hand" that magically regulates the economy without any government involvement or intervention. That's my point and anyone who goes back to my previous posts and reads them will see that. You can continue demanding proof for something I never claimed.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

In a market, capitalist-run economy, of course. I never argued against capitalists making a profit, what I do say is that full-time workers need to be paid a living wage, and their rights must be respected.

I never argued against capitalists making a profit,

You just did, when you said "The workers are already producing more than they're paid"

what I do say is that full-time workers need to be paid a living wage,

Workers are dying at their jobs?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You've taken my statements out of context and conveniently ignored or missed the points that I'm making about how capitalism, relies heavily upon public funds and infrastructure. There's no such thing as a "free market" or the "invisible hand" that magically regulates the economy without any government involvement or intervention. That's my point and anyone who goes back to my previous posts and reads them will see that. You can continue demanding proof for something I never claimed.

You said trillions. You lied.

There's no such thing as a "free market" or the "invisible hand" that magically regulates the economy without any government involvement or intervention.

Obviously. And?