What should the end goal of our gun policy be?

[BluesLegend]

If as a nation if we restrict and regulate everyone in at attempt to deal with the tiny fraction of 1% of mentally ill people freedom will become a thing of the past. Then you have the lying intentionally dishonest gun control people who want guns banned outright, they will take full advantage of any opportunity to restrict our 2nd amendment rights. Their strategy is death of the 2nd amendment via 1,000 small cuts. This makes it very difficult to agree upon common sense gun control measures knowing gun control groups have no intention of honoring any agreement, and every intention of hammering away until they get the total ban they seek. It doesn't help that some presidents are lying lowlife scum who jump at the chance to use any tragedy to promote gun control measures that would have had no effect on that tragedy.

 

[BluesLegend]

I have proposed a solution here a few times. Instead of registering guns and limiting magazine sizes and whatnot, we should register gun buyers.

If you apply to be a gun buyer, and pass a mental health and criminal background check, your name goes on a list. Sort of like those people who can now get pre-screened before flying.

If you wish to purchase a firearm, the retailer simply looks to see if your name is on the approved gun buyer list. If it is, you can buy as many guns and any size magazines you wish, and no record is kept of what you bought.

If you are a certified nutjob, your name does not get on the list and you cannot buy a gun.

If you are on the list, and then get convicted of whatever crime the people of your state decide warrants your removal from the list, then you are taken off the list.

If you are on the registered gun buyer list, it does not necessarily mean you have bought a gun. Nor does it indicate how many guns you own. Nor does it indicate how much ammo or magazines you own. It just indicates you are an upstanding citizen whose Second Amendment rights shall not be infringed or taken away without due process.

What does your mental health test look like?

OPINION: Paul Ryan blames mass shootings on mental health laws

NRA-ILA | 63% of Americans Blame Mental Health—Not Guns—for Mass Shootings

So, no mental health test. It seems not much weight given to anyone on the mental health list, anyway.

If we just enforced those who have been declared mentally ill through due process of law, that would fix most of the problem. Most shooters who are mentally ill have long histories

I have not researched this so take that into consideration...but there are a lot of mentally ill people in the country and only a tiny fraction are involved in shooting others or themselves. So if we are going to focus time and resources on helping the mentally ill is gun control really the priority? I would guess they have other problems that are a much higher priority, but again I have not looked into this.

 

[alang1216]

I went with regulated but I would prefer no open carry of handguns. I think there are two issues here, one is the gun and the other is the gun owner.

gun - no fully automatic weapons nor any with a caliber over .45. Just seems like common sense limits that 99.9% of buyers should be fine with.

gun owner - adult, citizen, with no severe mental or violent criminal history (some exceptions...?), trained and tested in gun use. If I know you have a weapon I want to react the same as I do when I see a cop, I know that cop is trained when and how to use that gun safely and, just as importantly, when not to use a weapon. I have no problem is the gov't offers this training for free and then tests those that graduate to ensure they really know what they are doing. The training would be much less for those that don't intend to routinely carry a gun but comparable to what police go through if they want a carry permit.

 

[g5000]

The "mentally ill" thing is a smokescreen. Sure, some mass shootings are carried out by people with a history of mental illness. Mass shootings make a big splash in the media and in the fearful mind.

But we are not losing 16,000 Americans a year to mass shootings or the mentally ill. We are losing them to one-on-one gun homicides.

No one on the Right is offering a viable solution to this problem. They toss out "mental health" red herrings after a mass shooting, and call it a day.

 

[kaz]

I have proposed a solution here a few times. Instead of registering guns and limiting magazine sizes and whatnot, we should register gun buyers.

If you apply to be a gun buyer, and pass a mental health and criminal background check, your name goes on a list. Sort of like those people who can now get pre-screened before flying.

If you wish to purchase a firearm, the retailer simply looks to see if your name is on the approved gun buyer list. If it is, you can buy as many guns and any size magazines you wish, and no record is kept of what you bought.

If you are a certified nutjob, your name does not get on the list and you cannot buy a gun.

If you are on the list, and then get convicted of whatever crime the people of your state decide warrants your removal from the list, then you are taken off the list.

If you are on the registered gun buyer list, it does not necessarily mean you have bought a gun. Nor does it indicate how many guns you own. Nor does it indicate how much ammo or magazines you own. It just indicates you are an upstanding citizen whose Second Amendment rights shall not be infringed or taken away without due process.

What does your mental health test look like?

OPINION: Paul Ryan blames mass shootings on mental health laws

NRA-ILA | 63% of Americans Blame Mental Health—Not Guns—for Mass Shootings

So, no mental health test. It seems not much weight given to anyone on the mental health list, anyway.

If we just enforced those who have been declared mentally ill through due process of law, that would fix most of the problem. Most shooters who are mentally ill have long histories

I have not researched this so take that into consideration...but there are a lot of mentally ill people in the country and only a tiny fraction are involved in shooting others or themselves. So if we are going to focus time and resources on helping the mentally ill is gun control really the priority? I would guess they have other problems that are a much higher priority, but again I have not looked into this.

It's hard to repeat my full position in every post. And I'm not saying you have to read every post to know my full position to post. Just telling you I'm summarizing.

My view is that for those who through due process of law have had their right to own a gun removed, if they try to buy a gun, they get arrested and put in jail. If we did that, mental illness crimes would drop dramatically. Most mental illness shooters have long histories of violence and mental illness.

I am not advocating we generally put mentally ill people in jail

 

[alang1216]

The "mentally ill" thing is a smokescreen. Sure, some mass shootings are carried out by people with a history of mental illness. Mass shootings make a big splash in the media and in the fearful mind.

But we are not losing 16,000 Americans a year to mass shootings. We are losing them to one-on-one gun homicides.

No one on the Right is offering a viable solution to this problem.

I think most suicides are "mentally ill" things

 

[BluesLegend]

gun - no fully automatic weapons nor any with a caliber over .45

This is quite ignorant. I have a .338 caliber rifle that will drop a polar bear in one shot, or a Cape buffalo. So why the arbitrary .45 caliber limit, please explain.

 

[Pogo]

I have proposed a solution here a few times. Instead of registering guns and limiting magazine sizes and whatnot, we should register gun buyers.

If you apply to be a gun buyer, and pass a mental health and criminal background check, your name goes on a list. Sort of like those people who can now get pre-screened before flying.

If you wish to purchase a firearm, the retailer simply looks to see if your name is on the approved gun buyer list. If it is, you can buy as many guns and any size magazines you wish, and no record is kept of what you bought.

If you are a certified nutjob, your name does not get on the list and you cannot buy a gun.

If you are on the list, and then get convicted of whatever crime the people of your state decide warrants your removal from the list, then you are taken off the list.

If you are on the registered gun buyer list, it does not necessarily mean you have bought a gun. Nor does it indicate how many guns you own. Nor does it indicate how much ammo or magazines you own. It just indicates you are an upstanding citizen whose Second Amendment rights shall not be infringed or taken away without due process.

What does your mental health test look like?

OPINION: Paul Ryan blames mass shootings on mental health laws

NRA-ILA | 63% of Americans Blame Mental Health—Not Guns—for Mass Shootings

So, no mental health test. It seems not much weight given to anyone on the mental health list, anyway.

If we just enforced those who have been declared mentally ill through due process of law, that would fix most of the problem. Most shooters who are mentally ill have long histories

I have not researched this so take that into consideration...but there are a lot of mentally ill people in the country and only a tiny fraction are involved in shooting others or themselves. So if we are going to focus time and resources on helping the mentally ill is gun control really the priority? I would guess they have other problems that are a much higher priority, but again I have not looked into this.

Very good point that only a tiny fraction are involved in shooting anybody. Far more significant is that only a tiny fraction of shooters are female. That's another clue.

 

[g5000]

The "mentally ill" thing is a smokescreen. Sure, some mass shootings are carried out by people with a history of mental illness. Mass shootings make a big splash in the media and in the fearful mind.

But we are not losing 16,000 Americans a year to mass shootings. We are losing them to one-on-one gun homicides.

No one on the Right is offering a viable solution to this problem.

I think most suicides are "mentally ill" things

Suicides occur with or without guns.

Homicides, on the other hand, are much lower in developed countries which have banned guns.

It's a lot easier to gas yourself with your oven than it is to gas someone else. It's a lot easier to swallow a lot of pills yourself than it is to make someone else swallow them. It's a lot easier to jump off a roof yourself than it is to throw someone else off the roof.

 

[Pogo]

None of the above. None are really relevant.

I've been saying since I got to this site, on this very issue at the time, that the issue of firearm violence is not legislative but cultural. We are a culture that worships violence like an idol. Until that changes it's not going to matter what laws do or don't do.

Politicians who either crow about more gun regulations or crow about Second Amendment rights, are doing nothing more than pandering for votes. Neither amounts to a proverbial hill of beans as regards the issue. Both are directly avoiding it.

Yes, you have mentioned your view that if we make guns uncool criminals and gangstas will lose interest in them. We haven't gotten a plan to accomplish that yet from you ...

Actually you have, but you like to go during that part.

So direct me to a post. I'm calling you a liar, you've proposed dick

I haven't "proposed dick", but you are the one who keeps calling me "Holmes" so I'd say you're preoccupied.

 

[kaz]

The "mentally ill" thing is a smokescreen. Sure, some mass shootings are carried out by people with a history of mental illness. Mass shootings make a big splash in the media and in the fearful mind.

But we are not losing 16,000 Americans a year to mass shootings or the mentally ill. We are losing them to one-on-one gun homicides.

No one on the Right is offering a viable solution to this problem. They toss out "mental health" red herrings after a mass shooting, and call it a day.

About 3% of the criminals who use guns to commit crimes got them legally

 

[kaz]

The "mentally ill" thing is a smokescreen. Sure, some mass shootings are carried out by people with a history of mental illness. Mass shootings make a big splash in the media and in the fearful mind.

But we are not losing 16,000 Americans a year to mass shootings. We are losing them to one-on-one gun homicides.

No one on the Right is offering a viable solution to this problem.

I think most suicides are "mentally ill" things

Suicides occur with or without guns.

Homicides, on the other hand, are much lower in developed countries which have banned guns.

It's a lot easier to gas yourself with your oven than it is to gas someone else. It's a lot easier to swallow a lot of pills yourself than it is to make someone else swallow them. It's a lot easier to jump off a roof yourself than it is to throw someone else off the roof.

While that stat is true, it doesn't address cause and effect. It doesn't support the argument that making guns more illegal in countries that have them reduces murders. And how many countries that have banned guns have open borders like we do and huge drug trafficking where dealers can sell too and an installed base of almost as many guns as people?

 

[kaz]

None of the above. None are really relevant.

I've been saying since I got to this site, on this very issue at the time, that the issue of firearm violence is not legislative but cultural. We are a culture that worships violence like an idol. Until that changes it's not going to matter what laws do or don't do.

Politicians who either crow about more gun regulations or crow about Second Amendment rights, are doing nothing more than pandering for votes. Neither amounts to a proverbial hill of beans as regards the issue. Both are directly avoiding it.

Yes, you have mentioned your view that if we make guns uncool criminals and gangstas will lose interest in them. We haven't gotten a plan to accomplish that yet from you ...

Actually you have, but you like to go during that part.

So direct me to a post. I'm calling you a liar, you've proposed dick

I haven't "proposed dick", but you are the one who keeps calling me "Holmes" so I'd say you're preoccupied.

Gotcha, Sherlock

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Most guns deaths are suicides.

Nobody's gonna say "gee, I can't get a gun, I guess I'm not going to kill myself." Take out the suicides, accidents, etc., the numbers aren't anywhere near as bad as the anti-gun pants shitters would have you think. You never hear the pants shitters ever talk about the "why", only the method.

 

[g5000]

The "mentally ill" thing is a smokescreen. Sure, some mass shootings are carried out by people with a history of mental illness. Mass shootings make a big splash in the media and in the fearful mind.

But we are not losing 16,000 Americans a year to mass shootings. We are losing them to one-on-one gun homicides.

No one on the Right is offering a viable solution to this problem.

I think most suicides are "mentally ill" things

Suicides occur with or without guns.

Homicides, on the other hand, are much lower in developed countries which have banned guns.

It's a lot easier to gas yourself with your oven than it is to gas someone else. It's a lot easier to swallow a lot of pills yourself than it is to make someone else swallow them. It's a lot easier to jump off a roof yourself than it is to throw someone else off the roof.

While that stat is true, it doesn't address cause and effect. It doesn't support the argument that making guns more illegal in countries that have them reduces murders. And how many countries that have banned guns have open borders like we do and huge drug trafficking where dealers can sell too and an installed base of almost as many guns as people?

Our homicide rate is not "because Mexicans".

 

[g5000]

Most guns deaths are suicides.

Nobody's gonna say "gee, I can't get a gun, I guess I'm not going to kill myself." Take out the suicides, accidents, etc., the numbers aren't anywhere near as bad as the anti-gun pants shitters would have you think. You never hear the pants shitters ever talk about the "why", only the method.

Our HOMICIDE rate is much higher than developed countries which have much stricter gun control.

That's a simple fact.

 

[kaz]

The "mentally ill" thing is a smokescreen. Sure, some mass shootings are carried out by people with a history of mental illness. Mass shootings make a big splash in the media and in the fearful mind.

But we are not losing 16,000 Americans a year to mass shootings. We are losing them to one-on-one gun homicides.

No one on the Right is offering a viable solution to this problem.

I think most suicides are "mentally ill" things

Suicides occur with or without guns.

Homicides, on the other hand, are much lower in developed countries which have banned guns.

It's a lot easier to gas yourself with your oven than it is to gas someone else. It's a lot easier to swallow a lot of pills yourself than it is to make someone else swallow them. It's a lot easier to jump off a roof yourself than it is to throw someone else off the roof.

While that stat is true, it doesn't address cause and effect. It doesn't support the argument that making guns more illegal in countries that have them reduces murders. And how many countries that have banned guns have open borders like we do and huge drug trafficking where dealers can sell too and an installed base of almost as many guns as people?

Our homicide rate is not "because Mexicans".

Your view that only Mexicans come to the US through the open border with Mexico is positively ridiculous. Ratchet back the bigotry, OK?

 

[kaz]

Most guns deaths are suicides.

Nobody's gonna say "gee, I can't get a gun, I guess I'm not going to kill myself." Take out the suicides, accidents, etc., the numbers aren't anywhere near as bad as the anti-gun pants shitters would have you think. You never hear the pants shitters ever talk about the "why", only the method.

Our HOMICIDE rate is much higher than developed countries which have much stricter gun control.

That's a simple fact.

Right, but again, you have not established cause and effect. The US is culturally very different from places like Europe or Japan. Have you spent any time there? I have, a lot. To just pick a stat and say that is loaded with fallacies if you're trying to draw a conclusion from it. So what conclusion do you draw?

 

[g5000]

The "mentally ill" thing is a smokescreen. Sure, some mass shootings are carried out by people with a history of mental illness. Mass shootings make a big splash in the media and in the fearful mind.

But we are not losing 16,000 Americans a year to mass shootings. We are losing them to one-on-one gun homicides.

No one on the Right is offering a viable solution to this problem.

I think most suicides are "mentally ill" things

Suicides occur with or without guns.

Homicides, on the other hand, are much lower in developed countries which have banned guns.

It's a lot easier to gas yourself with your oven than it is to gas someone else. It's a lot easier to swallow a lot of pills yourself than it is to make someone else swallow them. It's a lot easier to jump off a roof yourself than it is to throw someone else off the roof.

While that stat is true, it doesn't address cause and effect. It doesn't support the argument that making guns more illegal in countries that have them reduces murders. And how many countries that have banned guns have open borders like we do and huge drug trafficking where dealers can sell too and an installed base of almost as many guns as people?

Our homicide rate is not "because Mexicans".

Your view that only Mexicans come to the US through the open border with Mexico is positively ridiculous. Ratchet back the bigotry, OK?

You are the one demonstrating bigotry. Brown people coming across our border (from Mexico, Central America, whatever) are not the reason for our high homicide rate, but you are doing your damdest to blame them.

So I will reword. Our homicide rate is not "because Hispanics from south of the border".

Why don't you give up on the red herrings and get serious?

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Most guns deaths are suicides.

Nobody's gonna say "gee, I can't get a gun, I guess I'm not going to kill myself." Take out the suicides, accidents, etc., the numbers aren't anywhere near as bad as the anti-gun pants shitters would have you think. You never hear the pants shitters ever talk about the "why", only the method.

Our HOMICIDE rate is much higher than developed countries which have much stricter gun control.

That's a simple fact.

How do you explain Switzerland?