White America's Greatest Delusion: "They Do Not Know It and They Do Not Want to Know It"

White America's Greatest Delusion: "They Do Not Know It and They Do Not Want to Know It"
It is the innocence which constitutes the crime.
By Tim Wise / AlterNet
May 6, 2015
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Though perhaps overused, there are few statements that so thoroughly burrow to the heart of the nation's racial condition as the following, written fifty-three years ago by James Baldwin:

...this is the crime of which I accuse my country and my countrymen and for which neither I nor time nor history will ever forgive them, that they have destroyed and are destroying hundreds of thousands of lives and do not know it and do not want to know it...but it is not permissible that the authors of devastation should also be innocent. It is the innocence which constitutes the crime

Indeed, and in the wake of the Baltimore uprising that began last week, they are words worth remembering.

It is bad enough that much of white America sees fit to lecture black people about the proper response to police brutality, economic devastation and perpetual marginality, having ourselves rarely been the targets of any of these. It is bad enough that we deign to instruct black people whose lives we have not lived, whose terrors we have not faced, and whose gauntlets we have not run, about violence; this, even as we enjoy the national bounty over which we currently claim possession solely as a result of violence. I beg to remind you, George Washington was not a practitioner of passive resistance. Neither the early colonists nor the nation's founders fit within the Gandhian tradition. There were no sit-ins at King George's palace, no horseback freedom rides to affect change. There were just guns, lots and lots of guns.

We are here because of blood, and mostly that of others; here because of our insatiable and rapacious desire to take by force the land and labor of those others. We are the last people on Earth with a right to ruminate upon the superior morality of peaceful protest. We have never believed in it and rarely practiced it. Rather, we have always taken what we desire, and when denied it we have turned to means utterly genocidal to make it so.

Which is why it always strikes me as precious the way so many white Americans insist (as if preening for a morality contest of some sorts) that "we don't burn down our own neighborhoods when we get angry." This, in supposed contrast to black and brown folks who engage in such presumptively self-destructive irrationality as this. On the one hand, it simply isn't true. We do burn our own communities, we do riot, and for far less valid reasons than any for which persons of color have ever hoisted a brick, a rock, or a bottle.We do so when our teams lose the big game or win the big game; or because of something called Pumpkin Festival; or because veggie burritos cost $10 at Woodstock '99 and there weren't enough Porta-Potties by the time of the Limp Bizkit set; or because folks couldn't get enough beer at the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake; or because surfers (natch); or St. Patty's Day in Albany; or because Penn State fired Joe Paterno; or because it's a Sunday afternoon in Ames, Iowa; and we do it over and over and over again. Far from mere amateur hooliganism, our riots are indeed violent affairs that have been known to endanger the safety and lives of police, as with the infamous 1998 riot at Washington State University. To wit:

The crowd then attacked the officers from all sides for two hours with rocks, beer bottles, signposts, chairs, and pieces of concrete, allegedly cheering whenever an officer was struck and injured. Twenty-three officers were injured, some suffering concussions and broken bones.

:ack-1:

Seventeen years later, one still waits for the avalanche of conservative ruminations regarding the pathologies of whites in Pullman, whose disrespect for authority suggests a larger culture of dysfunction, no doubt taught to them by their rural, corn-fed families and symbolized by the easily recognizable gang attire of Carhartt work coats and backwards baseball caps.

Do you ever have a thought of your own?
 
Blah, blah, blah.

What brilliant point do you think HOlder made, that outweighs the last 50 years of national policy, effort and sacrifice?


Holder's report showed the systematic exploitation of the Black population by a nearly all white power strucvture that was harsh and selective in enforcement and used the poor Black folks as an ATM machine ...taxing through the legal system...it was telling how the rats left the ship after the report

This is where Cornell will abandon the "doesnt hold anyone down" bullshit unless he considers getting fined for minor offenses as being uplifting and paying ridiculous fines as being patriotic

This is where I will point out that the abuse of fines by local governments does not outweigh that last 50 years of national policy and effort and sacrifice.

YOu do realize that by dismissing all the efforts that have been made, that you are really, really discouraging ANY futher efforts, right?


Cornell keeps going for an arguement no one is having. "Anything doesnt erase other things"

And he stands on that point like someone somewhere is saying the opposite.
 
Blah, blah, blah.

What brilliant point do you think HOlder made, that outweighs the last 50 years of national policy, effort and sacrifice?


Holder's report showed the systematic exploitation of the Black population by a nearly all white power strucvture that was harsh and selective in enforcement and used the poor Black folks as an ATM machine ...taxing through the legal system...it was telling how the rats left the ship after the report

This is where Cornell will abandon the "doesnt hold anyone down" bullshit unless he considers getting fined for minor offenses as being uplifting and paying ridiculous fines as being patriotic

This is where I will point out that the abuse of fines by local governments does not outweigh that last 50 years of national policy and effort and sacrifice.

YOu do realize that by dismissing all the efforts that have been made, that you are really, really discouraging ANY futher efforts, right?


Cornell keeps going for an arguement no one is having. "Anything doesnt erase other things"

And he stands on that point like someone somewhere is saying the opposite.



Are you refuting your OP?

Because otherwise you are holding White American to be guilty of unforgivable crimes.

Unforgivable means that the last 50 years of good works don't count. THe crimes are unforgivable.

Words have meanings.
 
I'm not "holding them guilty" they are guilty.

Whatever definition you use for "unforgivable" isnt my concern. Yes words have meaning and unorgivable doesnt mean what you think

Your bad
 
It just so happen that the majority of those fined, ticketed etc are black. You want everyone to forget that part

It's called "low hanging fruit." Those who park on the lawn, don't have the car registered, don't have a valid license, have broken tail lights, etc. are black. Ghetto behavior results in lots of infractions for cops to exploit.

When I was young and poor, I got harassed with this sort of shit all the time. Cops go after the poor, because the poor lack the resources to fight back.
 
I'm not "holding them guilty" they are guilty.

Whatever definition you use for "unforgivable" isnt my concern. Yes words have meaning and unorgivable doesnt mean what you think

Your bad

Who is "they," and what are they guilty of?

Standard Disclaimer: Have you explored the available mental health options?
 
I am not arguing that at all. YOU ARE.
I said efforts have fallen short in some areas and more work is needed.

As far as affirmative action, I suppose a few white guys losing out to a few black guys is worse than this......

View attachment 41118

AA is far worse, because it is the GOVERNMENT enforcing the discrimination. Your hypocrisy is exceeded only by your ignorance.
 
It just so happen that the majority of those fined, ticketed etc are black. You want everyone to forget that part

It's called "low hanging fruit." Those who park on the lawn, don't have the car registered, don't have a valid license, have broken tail lights, etc. are black. Ghetto behavior results in lots of infractions for cops to exploit.

When I was young and poor, I got harassed with this sort of shit all the time. Cops go after the poor, because the poor lack the resources to fight back.

Which results in more prisoners...which results in less opportunities...etc etc.

You agree except you just dont like for me to point out the black part. Much like a rich person would take offense to your "go after the poor" argument.
 
Which results in more prisoners...which results in less opportunities...etc etc.

You agree except you just dont like for me to point out the black part. Much like a rich person would take offense to your "go after the poor" argument.

Funny, I never went to prison.

I don't agree with you, I simply recognize the flaws in our system. You are a racist, so you attribute everything to race. The cops don't give a shit about race, they care about money. The drug war and the asset forfeiture laws have turned the police into little more than armed criminals roaming about car jacking and doing home invasion robberies. They go after blacks because blacks are usually poor and uneducated.

Low hanging fruit.

In my area, the cops focus on the Mexicans, because the black population has mostly become educated and middle class. Suddenly, the cops aren't interested in the blacks anymore.
 
Blah, blah, blah.

What brilliant point do you think HOlder made, that outweighs the last 50 years of national policy, effort and sacrifice?


Holder's report showed the systematic exploitation of the Black population by a nearly all white power strucvture that was harsh and selective in enforcement and used the poor Black folks as an ATM machine ...taxing through the legal system...it was telling how the rats left the ship after the report


Wow. YOu mean a city used tickets and fines as a source of revenue?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been complaining about the abuse of that system in my own city for years. I personally know whites who have suffered real harm from this abuse.

DO you really care about it, or is it just something to use to slam whitey with?

Has anything been done about it?

Or, has it's use been accomplished, ie whitey was slammed?

Is anything being done about it? Anything being tried?

Wow!
The first step to correcting a problem is identifying the problem. (That's if you choose to see a problem at all).
Let's also be clear that this problem would be invisible if social unrest had not shown a national light on it.


Funny you should mention that.

What about illegitimacy?

It has been identified as the source of all kinds of problems from high rates of crime to drug abuse, poverty, ect, ect.

It was identified as such back in the 1960s.

But, you libs would rather pretend the problem is white racism.

What is it with Cons not being able to follow thread discussions?
I addressed this already. I gave you my opinion probably ten pages ago. The breakdown of black family structure is indeed a problem with it's own set of hurdles in place for black folks. Probably a whole other thread to discuss that.
 
Are you smoking something? I'm sure you know what being an asshole means...

.. and also sure you know that fall guys have nothing to do with assholes

You made the claim that whites have it coming for some alleged crime that warrants the government robbing us at gun point and giving you a tiny portion of the stolen goods.

When asked for your justification. you said "be assholes."

Your answer is not rational.
 
Ok buddy, I'm not going to argue with you uabout what you believe I believe. I'm here to talk facts

A minute ago, you were happy to discuss what you believed I believe.

Facts?

Sure. Fact is that the US has had bi-partisan consensus on helping blacks up for the last 50 years.

And whites are increasingly done with that.

Opening a discussion on Race with, "YOU assholes are guilty, and need to do more", is not going to be productive.

Do you feel that the " bipartisan consensus" over the last fifty years has been 100% effective? Or would you say there is room for improvement?
 
Which results in more prisoners...which results in less opportunities...etc etc.

You agree except you just dont like for me to point out the black part. Much like a rich person would take offense to your "go after the poor" argument.

Funny, I never went to prison.

I don't agree with you, I simply recognize the flaws in our system. You are a racist, so you attribute everything to race. The cops don't give a shit about race, they care about money. The drug war and the asset forfeiture laws have turned the police into little more than armed criminals roaming about car jacking and doing home invasion robberies. They go after blacks because blacks are usually poor and uneducated.

Low hanging fruit.

In my area, the cops focus on the Mexicans, because the black population has mostly become educated and middle class. Suddenly, the cops aren't interested in the blacks anymore.

You're ok with that?
Wouldn't that be systemic bias? Even racist policy in some cases?
We should just chalk it up to " Hey, just don't be poor or brown and you won't have a problem"?
 
Do you feel that the " bipartisan consensus" over the last fifty years has been 100% effective? Or would you say there is room for improvement?

The war on poverty was a complete failure. The economic incentives of the 80's were astoundingly effective. Welfare and Affirmative Action have damaged the prospects of black Americans substantially. But economic development initiatives have been highly successful.

It appears a hand up actually IS better than a hand out - though no one will ever convince the leftists of this.
 

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