Debate Now White Privilege and an Institution of Racism

[Foxfyre]

NOTE: This thread is in the Structured Debate Forum.

John H. McWhorter PhD offers an interesting perspective on race in a recent essay. The inspiration for his thoughts were apparently triggered by students being required to attend "White Privilege 101" classes. His response to that is "Why, and for whose benefit?"

The concept he expresses raises the question of who is benefited when the conversation focuses on identification with race rather the means by which racism is eliminated or diminished.

Excerpted from the essay--pay special attention to the third paragraph cited here:

. . .If you’ve been white lately, you have likely been confronted with the idea that to be a good person, you must cultivate a guilt complex over the privileged status your race enjoys.

It isn’t that you are doing, or even quite thinking, anything racist. Rather, your existential state of Living While White constitutes a form of racism in itself. Your understanding will serve as a tool … for something. But be careful about asking just what that something is, because that will mean you “just don’t get it.”

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can underperform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else. . . .​

And later in the essay he comments:

. . . the idea is not to teach white people that White Privilege means that black people are the only group of people in human history who cannot deal with obstacles and challenges. If the idea is that black people cannot solve their problems short of white people developing an exquisite sensitivity to how privileged they are, then we in the black community are being designated as disabled poster children. . . .​

And he further notes that these days, a white person accused of being racist is somewhere on a par with being designated as a pedophile.

The whole essay is here: The Privilege of Checking White Privilege - The Daily Beast

THE RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:

1. Stay on topic please. The topic is stated in the question to be answered below.

2. No ad hominem re other members or political parties or conservatives or liberals, etc. Focus on the comment posted and not the character or motive of the person posting it. Focus on the stated position of a political party if pertinent to the topic and not on the character or motive of the political party itself.

3. References, reasonable excerpts of, and links to other stated opinions are allowed but will not be required for this discussion. If used, put the basic concept of the linked material into your own words also and explain how it relates to the concept of 'white privilege'.

THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED IN THIS DISCUSSION:

Does a focus on 'white privilege' and racism as McWhorter describes it help or hurt black people? Please explain your 'yes' or 'no' answer or any position you take between 'yes' or 'no'.

 

[Swagger]

White privilege certainly exists - and should be encouraged/preserved for future generations of Whites in countries and territories where Whites are the demographic majority - due to instincts buried in our subconscious; but its conceptualisation has mainly been used as a means of polarising and aggitating the masses to sell headlines.

 

[Pogo]

I don't think "focus" (whatever we might mean by that term) on white privilege and/or racism either helps or hurts black people, no.

But I do think knowing our history -- which is the context of the world in which we live -- helps everybody equally. You can't know where you're going if you don't know how you got where you are now.

 

[Pogo]

White privilege is another made up term by some left loon. I'm sick of it all. Just stop already

Second post and already a violation of thread rules.
Can you try addressing the actual issue, or not?

 

[Foxfyre]

White privilege is another made up term by some left loon. I'm sick of it all. Just stop already

I hardly think the writer of the essay exerpted in the OP can be classified as a 'left loon' (and please be careful with that kind of ad hominem as we don't want to engage in it in this thread.)

Read again that third paragraph in the excerpted portion. That is what he meant by White Privilege. And it definitely does exist.

 

[LoneLaugher]

The poll options are all flawed. This is, therefore, a flawed thread.

Acknowledging that white privilege ( no quotation marks needed ) exists and understanding the many ways in which it manifests is pretty much ground zero in the effort to end discriminatory practices in this society.

If you cannot do that without concluding that certain groups are going to be coddled.....and thus fail to reach their potential.....then you cannot have a seat at the adult table where this is being discussed.

 

[Foxfyre]

White privilege certainly exists - and should be encouraged/preserved for future generations of Whites in countries and territories where Whites are the demographic majority - due to instincts buried in our subconscious; but its conceptualisation has mainly been used as a means of polarising and aggitating the masses to sell headlines.

I can't really agree with that Swagger, though I do believe us white people should be no more ashamed to be white than persons of other races should be ashamed of being born who and what they are.

But until we start treating skin color as of no more consequence than hair color or eye color, I am afraid the white race will continue to be demonized by racist opportunists and racism will remain alive and well because it is so easily used for fun and profit and political advantage.

 

[Foxfyre]

What a skewed set of questions...

Nobody really focuses on "white privilege" it's just something that is taken for granted.

Well I think McWhorter is very definitely somebody and he did focus on "white privilege" in his essay and that is the topic of this discussion. So let's discuss it okay?

McWhorter listed his concept of 'white privilege' in the third paragraph that I excerpted in the OP:

. . . .Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can underperform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else. . . .

Is he wrong?

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't think "focus" (whatever we might mean by that term) on white privilege and/or racism either helps or hurts black people, no.

But I do think knowing our history -- which is the context of the world in which we live -- helps everybody equally. You can't know where you're going if you don't know how you got where you are now.

Yes. And those of Irish and Chinese and Italian and Jewish and Japanese and Mexican et al ancestry all have really ugly histories at some time in their stories of life in America.

But the point is we now have non discrimination based on race laws on the books at the federal level and every state in the union. Affirmative Action laws were probably necessary for a short period to break down cultural barriers and allow black and white people to get used to living and working side by side. That is mostly accomplished now.

Segregation was a reality but it has been abolished. Nobody has to sit in the back of the bus or use a different drinking fountain because of who or what they are any more. Everybody has full access to all public facilities and all institutions of learning etc.

So isn't it time to demand a color blind society and really allow all people to be seen and treated equally? No more of the political correctness nonsense that tends to generate more hostility than it corrects? No more protected class stuff that does put black people at a disadvantage because it forces people to treat them as more fragile and vulnerable and even inferior and incapable of achievement on their own merit. Nobody deserves that.

 

[Carla_Danger]

What a skewed set of questions...

Nobody really focuses on "white privilege" it's just something that is taken for granted.

Well I think McWhorter is very definitely somebody and he did focus on "white privilege" in his essay and that is the topic of this discussion. So let's discuss it okay?

McWhorter listed his concept of 'white privilege' in the third paragraph that I excerpted in the OP:

. . . .Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can underperform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else. . . .

Is he wrong?

He hasn't touched the tip of the iceberg. Not only are authority figures likely to be white, but black people are more likely to get pulled over, they will more likely get longer sentencing for the same crime, their neighborhoods are more likely to be heavily patrolled...and the list goes on and on.

Affirmative Action would not have been necessary without racism/white privilege to begin with.

 

[Foxfyre]

What a skewed set of questions...

Nobody really focuses on "white privilege" it's just something that is taken for granted.

Well I think McWhorter is very definitely somebody and he did focus on "white privilege" in his essay and that is the topic of this discussion. So let's discuss it okay?

McWhorter listed his concept of 'white privilege' in the third paragraph that I excerpted in the OP:

. . . .Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can underperform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else. . . .

Is he wrong?

He hasn't touched the tip of the iceberg. Not only are authority figures likely to be white, but black people are more likely to get pulled over, they will more likely get longer sentencing for the same crime, their neighborhoods are more likely to be heavily patrolled...and the list goes on and on.

Affirmative Action would not have been necessary without racism/white privilege to begin with.

I agree that Affirmative Action was necessary back in the 1960's to break down cultural barriers and get people used to working with each other. But that has been accomplished. Nobody is saying that racism wasn't/isn't real and it never hurt black people.

But we have fixed racism as institutional discrimination. That hasn't been allowed for a long time now.

So why not start treating people like they really are equal?

 

[Two Thumbs]

Racism and other things, are tools of the left to create hate and division in the country so that people look to the government for answers thus giving it more power to create more division and hate to get more power to create division and hate to get more......

 

[Foxfyre]

Racism and other things, are tools of the left to create hate and division in the country so that people look to the government for answers thus giving it more power to create more division and hate to get more power to create division and hate to get more......

I can't agree with that Two Thumbs. Racism is real and it is manifested by people, black, white, polka dot or any other flavor, who react to other people out of inate or taught bigotry, prejudice, and raw emotion.

Yes, unscrupulous individuals and political parties will use racism as a means of increasing their power, prestige, influence, personal wealth, and voter base and, in my opinion, that tactic is evil.

And in my opinion the only way to counter that evil is to take away their means of using it. If we treat everybody the same and expect everybody to be equal with everybody else, then there is no more political correctness. The "n" word or other offensive phrases and imagery lose their power to hurt people because everybody can use them. And those using such phrase find they are ineffective as insults and no longer have any effect on those they hope to humiliate or insult.

We create a society where everybody assumes the black man got his job, his raise, his promotion, his status on merit and not because of some quota or token policy or because of lowered requirements so he could quality. Just like we assume that of the white guy.

The race baiters wouldn't have anybody to bait. The politicians would lose their ability to foster racism for their own self-serving interests because everybody would be entitled to the same benefits of whatever programs they offered.

 

[LoneLaugher]

White privilege certainly exists - and should be encouraged/preserved for future generations of Whites in countries and territories where Whites are the demographic majority - due to instincts buried in our subconscious; but its conceptualisation has mainly been used as a means of polarising and aggitating the masses to sell headlines.

I can't really agree with that Swagger, though I do believe us white people should be no more ashamed to be white than persons of other races should be ashamed of being born who and what they are.

But until we start treating skin color as of no more consequence than hair color or eye color, I am afraid the white race will continue to be demonized by racist opportunists and racism will remain alive and well because it is so easily used for fun and profit and political advantage.

Well now....there it is. White people are being demonized by racists....and that is why racism is alive and well. Outstanding!

This thread ought to be moved to the flame zone.

 

[Foxfyre]

The poll options are all flawed. This is, therefore, a flawed thread.

Acknowledging that white privilege ( no quotation marks needed ) exists and understanding the many ways in which it manifests is pretty much ground zero in the effort to end discriminatory practices in this society.

If you cannot do that without concluding that certain groups are going to be coddled.....and thus fail to reach their potential.....then you cannot have a seat at the adult table where this is being discussed.

If you believe the poll options to be flawed, please feel free to ignore them Lone Laugher. And if you believe the thread to be flawed, there are hundreds of other threads out there to participate in.

The thread topic is:
Does a focus on 'white privilege' and racism help or hurt black people? Please explain your 'yes' or 'no' answer or any position you take between 'yes' or 'no'.

Anybody with interest in that topic and who wishes to have a civil discussion about it is welcome at the table whether or not they agree with me or you or anybody else.

 

[Foxfyre]

White privilege certainly exists - and should be encouraged/preserved for future generations of Whites in countries and territories where Whites are the demographic majority - due to instincts buried in our subconscious; but its conceptualisation has mainly been used as a means of polarising and aggitating the masses to sell headlines.

I can't really agree with that Swagger, though I do believe us white people should be no more ashamed to be white than persons of other races should be ashamed of being born who and what they are.

But until we start treating skin color as of no more consequence than hair color or eye color, I am afraid the white race will continue to be demonized by racist opportunists and racism will remain alive and well because it is so easily used for fun and profit and political advantage.

Well now....there it is. White people are being demonized by racists....and that is why racism is alive and well. Outstanding!

This thread ought to be moved to the flame zone.

That is not what was said. Try again.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Racism and other things, are tools of the left to create hate and division in the country so that people look to the government for answers thus giving it more power to create more division and hate to get more power to create division and hate to get more......

I can't agree with that Two Thumbs. Racism is real and it is manifested by people, black, white, polka dot or any other flavor, who react to other people out of inate or taught bigotry, prejudice, and raw emotion.

Yes, unscrupulous individuals and political parties will use racism as a means of increasing their power, prestige, influence, personal wealth, and voter base and, in my opinion, that tactic is evil.

And in my opinion the only way to counter that evil is to take away their means of using it. If we treat everybody the same and expect everybody to be equal with everybody else, then there is no more political correctness. The "n" word or other offensive phrases and imagery lose their power to hurt people because everybody can use them. And those using such phrase find they are ineffective as insults and no longer have any effect on those they hope to humiliate or insult.

We create a society where everybody assumes the black man got his job, his raise, his promotion, his status on merit and not because of some quota or token policy or because of lowered requirements so he could quality. Just like we assume that of the white guy.

The race baiters wouldn't have anybody to bait. The politicians would lose their ability to foster racism for their own self-serving interests because everybody would be entitled to the same benefits of whatever programs they offered.

"The race baiters wouldn't have anyone to bait"

Does that mean what I think it means? It must. When I want to catch a fish....I use fish bait. What am I gonna catch with race bait? A person who is not racist? Will my race bait anger or confuse a normally unprejudiced, non-racist person into becoming a loser racist?

Of course not.

Excellent point.

 

[LoneLaugher]

White privilege certainly exists - and should be encouraged/preserved for future generations of Whites in countries and territories where Whites are the demographic majority - due to instincts buried in our subconscious; but its conceptualisation has mainly been used as a means of polarising and aggitating the masses to sell headlines.

I can't really agree with that Swagger, though I do believe us white people should be no more ashamed to be white than persons of other races should be ashamed of being born who and what they are.

But until we start treating skin color as of no more consequence than hair color or eye color, I am afraid the white race will continue to be demonized by racist opportunists and racism will remain alive and well because it is so easily used for fun and profit and political advantage.

Well now....there it is. White people are being demonized by racists....and that is why racism is alive and well. Outstanding!

This thread ought to be moved to the flame zone.

That is not what was said. Try again.

That is what you said. Ask someone who has more patience than me to explain it to you.

 

[Pogo]

I don't think "focus" (whatever we might mean by that term) on white privilege and/or racism either helps or hurts black people, no.

But I do think knowing our history -- which is the context of the world in which we live -- helps everybody equally. You can't know where you're going if you don't know how you got where you are now.

Yes. And those of Irish and Chinese and Italian and Jewish and Japanese and Mexican et al ancestry all have really ugly histories at some time in their stories of life in America.

But the point is we now have non discrimination based on race laws on the books at the federal level and every state in the union. Affirmative Action laws were probably necessary for a short period to break down cultural barriers and allow black and white people to get used to living and working side by side. That is mostly accomplished now.

Segregation was a reality but it has been abolished. Nobody has to sit in the back of the bus or use a different drinking fountain because of who or what they are any more. Everybody has full access to all public facilities and all institutions of learning etc.

So isn't it time to demand a color blind society and really allow all people to be seen and treated equally? No more of the political correctness nonsense that tends to generate more hostility than it corrects? No more protected class stuff that does put black people at a disadvantage because it forces people to treat them as more fragile and vulnerable and even inferior and incapable of achievement on their own merit. Nobody deserves that.

I agree with most all of that, if not all completely. Though I do wonder why you left out black people from the list at the top -- they suffered the worst. And they've also suffered the worst whitewashing (no pun intended) of the history books about it. I think we've all been schooled in the "no Irish need apply" signs, the treatment of Chinese railroad workers, even to some extent that of Native Americans, but how may of us have been taught of the Red Summer of 1919 and all the race riots of that time? How many are aware that beginning in the aftermath of the Civil War black people were being regularly accosted, beaten, raped, hanged, burned alive, skinned, (skinned), dragged behind vehicles, cut into pieces sold as souvenirs, and that this went on for nearly a century? Our schoolbooks somehow find a way to leave all that out, the omission of which bestows on us a great distortion. And such distortions, even in their omission, influence our perspectives and thereby our judgment. Context is vital.

I agree with all you've posted here about affirmative action and segregation laws. But those are laws. We got over the legal part, yes. What we have yet to get past is the cultural part. That's what this question is today -- a cultural one. And without knowing -- and acknowledging -- that history, cultural development can't move forward. Because culture carries its own context. It has no choice but to carry it; it's part of what makes it culture.

I was about to add that examples of ignoring context in favor of deliberately and self-servingly muddying the waters of rational discussion would appear in this thread as exhibit A - but it's already here:

Racism and other things, are tools of the left to create hate and division in the country so that people look to the government for answers thus giving it more power to create more division and hate to get more power to create division and hate to get more......

 

[LoneLaugher]

The poll options are all flawed. This is, therefore, a flawed thread.

Acknowledging that white privilege ( no quotation marks needed ) exists and understanding the many ways in which it manifests is pretty much ground zero in the effort to end discriminatory practices in this society.

If you cannot do that without concluding that certain groups are going to be coddled.....and thus fail to reach their potential.....then you cannot have a seat at the adult table where this is being discussed.

If you believe the poll options to be flawed, please feel free to ignore them Lone Laugher. And if you believe the thread to be flawed, there are hundreds of other threads out there to participate in.

The thread topic is:
Does a focus on 'white privilege' and racism help or hurt black people? Please explain your 'yes' or 'no' answer or any position you take between 'yes' or 'no'.

Anybody with interest in that topic and who wishes to have a civil discussion about it is welcome at the table whether or not they agree with me or you or anybody else.

Answered.