Why did the holocaust occur?

[jillian]

On the contrary I found Goldhagen's book very persuasive. He makes the case that non-Jewish Germans regarded Jews as alien, that their existence in Germany constituted a problem that needed a solution. Their extermination was simply an extreme conclusion carried out by a small number but acquiesced to by virtually everyone.
But just as WWI and its trauma paved teh way for Hitler, so too WW2 paved the way for a serious re-examination of German attitudes towards almost everything.
The good consequence is that Germans are probably teh least anti semitic in Europe. The bad consequence is that legitimate issues cannot be discussed without referring to Nazi policy.

Dear Rabbi,

persuasive yes, but he is rather very selective with his sources.

So it was common in nearly every european state in the 17th, 18th or 19th century, that jews formed a distinct and somewhat "alien" group. In France they became citizens after the revolution.
In most german states this may differ, but in general between 1815 and 1840 in most german states Jews either had de facto the same rights as other subjects of the respective prince or had them by edict.
When Germany was unified in 1871 all german Jews got the same rights as every other german citizen.
As said, within the army (and in the juridical system) jews were still either not allowed or not accepted. But in every other field they assimilated very well.

But you must see regional differences. There were still rural parts, were jews still kept for their own and did not assimilate. If you had asked what people thought in these parts, you will find antisemitism.
Also, there always was antisemitism on the rise during times of economic crisis. But as France had proven with it´s Deyfuss Affaire, antisemitism was not limited to Germany.
I would sum up these under "christian prejudice". So were there constant fears of small businessmen of the bigger jewish warehouses etc.
But nothing of these was found only and exclusively in Germany, so I do not follow Goldhagen in this.

Regards
the germanguy

There was nothing new about anti-semitism. the Nazis only perfected the means of addressing the problem. And like everything else Germans do, they were meticulous in their efforts. (That's not a negative stereotype, btw... it's just I happen to respect that aspect of German culture.. notwithstanding the ultimate end to which it was put during WWII).

As for assimilation, there is no question that Jewish refusal to assimilate and adopt Christianity contributed to the prejudice. But had they assimilated, they would no longer have been Jews anymore, IMO. Ultimately, I'm sure you understand that, like any other political effort, Jews were used to rally Germans around a particular political party and there really was no "Jewish problem" which required any "solution".

Do you think they should have assimilated?

 

[GHook93]

Made my avatar...always wanted to have a flag.

Hee...and please nobody tells the federal president, as the use of this flag is limited by law to services and buildings of the german government.

But now to something completely different: the subject of this thread.

Before I do get applause from the wrong ones:
That I do not agree with Goldhagen does not mean I do support in any way hate speech or the denial of the Holocaust.

I personally believe that Goldhagen´s book had it´s merits:
His central thesis is uncomfortable enough, that the Germans started a vivid debate about it.

This at last is a very good thing, as certain details described by Goldhagen are correct and well written.

But I still do not see, that Germans are the predestined killers of the Jews.

We all have to face the fact, that we evolved monkeys are a cruel and bloodthirsty species. And we all have to fight this demon by using the most important organ we have: our brain.

Regards
the germanguy

So quickly you forget the first crusade! This is what many Jewish scholars call the First German Jewish Holocaust!

Persecution of Jews in the First Crusade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[The Rabbi]

On the contrary I found Goldhagen's book very persuasive. He makes the case that non-Jewish Germans regarded Jews as alien, that their existence in Germany constituted a problem that needed a solution. Their extermination was simply an extreme conclusion carried out by a small number but acquiesced to by virtually everyone.
But just as WWI and its trauma paved teh way for Hitler, so too WW2 paved the way for a serious re-examination of German attitudes towards almost everything.
The good consequence is that Germans are probably teh least anti semitic in Europe. The bad consequence is that legitimate issues cannot be discussed without referring to Nazi policy.

Dear Rabbi,

persuasive yes, but he is rather very selective with his sources.

So it was common in nearly every european state in the 17th, 18th or 19th century, that jews formed a distinct and somewhat "alien" group. In France they became citizens after the revolution.
In most german states this may differ, but in general between 1815 and 1840 in most german states Jews either had de facto the same rights as other subjects of the respective prince or had them by edict.
When Germany was unified in 1871 all german Jews got the same rights as every other german citizen.
As said, within the army (and in the juridical system) jews were still either not allowed or not accepted. But in every other field they assimilated very well.

But you must see regional differences. There were still rural parts, were jews still kept for their own and did not assimilate. If you had asked what people thought in these parts, you will find antisemitism.
Also, there always was antisemitism on the rise during times of economic crisis. But as France had proven with it´s Deyfuss Affaire, antisemitism was not limited to Germany.
I would sum up these under "christian prejudice". So were there constant fears of small businessmen of the bigger jewish warehouses etc.
But nothing of these was found only and exclusively in Germany, so I do not follow Goldhagen in this.

Regards
the germanguy

Except that rabid anti-semitism was prominent in the universities as well.
Look, my father in law was born in Hamburg. His father was born in Heinebach, which is a noplace south of Kassel. The family moved there in the 1600s. He had uncles who fought and died in WWI for the Kaiser. Although they were observant, they were very well assimilated into German culture.
Yes, there was worse anti semitism in the rural areas. But that does not explain the speed with which anti semitic laws were adopted in the universities and professions. The legal profession had no trouble ejecting Jewish lawyers and judges, even though there were many of them. Universities had no trouble dismissing their Jewish faculty, even though they were among the best there.
I do not think Germany was unique in its anti semitism. Simply that they lost the war and had hard conditions placed on them by the allies, which paved the way for Hitler (this was the explanation my wife's grandfather favored).

 

[germanguy]

On the contrary I found Goldhagen's book very persuasive. He makes the case that non-Jewish Germans regarded Jews as alien, that their existence in Germany constituted a problem that needed a solution. Their extermination was simply an extreme conclusion carried out by a small number but acquiesced to by virtually everyone.
But just as WWI and its trauma paved teh way for Hitler, so too WW2 paved the way for a serious re-examination of German attitudes towards almost everything.
The good consequence is that Germans are probably teh least anti semitic in Europe. The bad consequence is that legitimate issues cannot be discussed without referring to Nazi policy.

Dear Rabbi,

persuasive yes, but he is rather very selective with his sources.

So it was common in nearly every european state in the 17th, 18th or 19th century, that jews formed a distinct and somewhat "alien" group. In France they became citizens after the revolution.
In most german states this may differ, but in general between 1815 and 1840 in most german states Jews either had de facto the same rights as other subjects of the respective prince or had them by edict.
When Germany was unified in 1871 all german Jews got the same rights as every other german citizen.
As said, within the army (and in the juridical system) jews were still either not allowed or not accepted. But in every other field they assimilated very well.

But you must see regional differences. There were still rural parts, were jews still kept for their own and did not assimilate. If you had asked what people thought in these parts, you will find antisemitism.
Also, there always was antisemitism on the rise during times of economic crisis. But as France had proven with it´s Deyfuss Affaire, antisemitism was not limited to Germany.
I would sum up these under "christian prejudice". So were there constant fears of small businessmen of the bigger jewish warehouses etc.
But nothing of these was found only and exclusively in Germany, so I do not follow Goldhagen in this.

Regards
the germanguy

There was nothing new about anti-semitism. the Nazis only perfected the means of addressing the problem. And like everything else Germans do, they were meticulous in their efforts. (That's not a negative stereotype, btw... it's just I happen to respect that aspect of German culture.. notwithstanding the ultimate end to which it was put during WWII).

As for assimilation, there is no question that Jewish refusal to assimilate and adopt Christianity contributed to the prejudice. But had they assimilated, they would no longer have been Jews anymore, IMO. Ultimately, I'm sure you understand that, like any other political effort, Jews were used to rally Germans around a particular political party and there really was no "Jewish problem" which required any "solution".

Do you think they should have assimilated?

Depends how you define assimilation.
In regards of the Jews it was a two - way thing.
They needed to be accepted as equal citizens and they needed to accept german citizenship.
But actually there was no proper distinction between a german jew and a non-jewish german. The german jews formed an important part of the german culture (just see how they added to the success of Hollywood - Billy Wilder and Lubitsch I only name).
So they were mostly not someone apart, but in the heart of it. We have thrown that away and this is the even sadder part of the story.

Before the 19th century this was different. In the best cases they were "Schutzjuden", special subjects under protection of the Emperor or local king / prince and therefore with a somewhat shaky status. Also they had limited rights and certain duties to fulfil.
In the middle ages this was even worse, when they were in ghettos and subject to constant danger in many parts.

So, in the period when the nation states were formed, the vast majority of jews in germany became german jews. Somewhat restrained still, but undoubted an important part of what germany was then.
So actually antisemitism formed a problem where there mostly was no problem any more.

IMO the Holocaust changed that deceisively, as now Zionism gave a way out of this process. But with that I touch thin ice, as my knowledge about this subject is limited.

regards
the germanguy

 

[germanguy]

Made my avatar...always wanted to have a flag.

Hee...and please nobody tells the federal president, as the use of this flag is limited by law to services and buildings of the german government.

But now to something completely different: the subject of this thread.

Before I do get applause from the wrong ones:
That I do not agree with Goldhagen does not mean I do support in any way hate speech or the denial of the Holocaust.

I personally believe that Goldhagen´s book had it´s merits:
His central thesis is uncomfortable enough, that the Germans started a vivid debate about it.

This at last is a very good thing, as certain details described by Goldhagen are correct and well written.

But I still do not see, that Germans are the predestined killers of the Jews.

We all have to face the fact, that we evolved monkeys are a cruel and bloodthirsty species. And we all have to fight this demon by using the most important organ we have: our brain.

Regards
the germanguy

So quickly you forget the first crusades! This is what many Jewish scholars call the First German Jewish Holocaust!

Persecution of Jews in the First Crusade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have not forgotten this, but I really doubt, that germany as a nation or a nation state was already existing then.

 

[germanguy]

On the contrary I found Goldhagen's book very persuasive. He makes the case that non-Jewish Germans regarded Jews as alien, that their existence in Germany constituted a problem that needed a solution. Their extermination was simply an extreme conclusion carried out by a small number but acquiesced to by virtually everyone.
But just as WWI and its trauma paved teh way for Hitler, so too WW2 paved the way for a serious re-examination of German attitudes towards almost everything.
The good consequence is that Germans are probably teh least anti semitic in Europe. The bad consequence is that legitimate issues cannot be discussed without referring to Nazi policy.

Dear Rabbi,

persuasive yes, but he is rather very selective with his sources.

So it was common in nearly every european state in the 17th, 18th or 19th century, that jews formed a distinct and somewhat "alien" group. In France they became citizens after the revolution.
In most german states this may differ, but in general between 1815 and 1840 in most german states Jews either had de facto the same rights as other subjects of the respective prince or had them by edict.
When Germany was unified in 1871 all german Jews got the same rights as every other german citizen.
As said, within the army (and in the juridical system) jews were still either not allowed or not accepted. But in every other field they assimilated very well.

But you must see regional differences. There were still rural parts, were jews still kept for their own and did not assimilate. If you had asked what people thought in these parts, you will find antisemitism.
Also, there always was antisemitism on the rise during times of economic crisis. But as France had proven with it´s Deyfuss Affaire, antisemitism was not limited to Germany.
I would sum up these under "christian prejudice". So were there constant fears of small businessmen of the bigger jewish warehouses etc.
But nothing of these was found only and exclusively in Germany, so I do not follow Goldhagen in this.

Regards
the germanguy

Except that rabid anti-semitism was prominent in the universities as well.
Look, my father in law was born in Hamburg. His father was born in Heinebach, which is a noplace south of Kassel. The family moved there in the 1600s. He had uncles who fought and died in WWI for the Kaiser. Although they were observant, they were very well assimilated into German culture.
Yes, there was worse anti semitism in the rural areas. But that does not explain the speed with which anti semitic laws were adopted in the universities and professions. The legal profession had no trouble ejecting Jewish lawyers and judges, even though there were many of them. Universities had no trouble dismissing their Jewish faculty, even though they were among the best there.
I do not think Germany was unique in its anti semitism. Simply that they lost the war and had hard conditions placed on them by the allies, which paved the way for Hitler (this was the explanation my wife's grandfather favored).

I agree with that. And I only have theories about this.
Universities then were limited to a small elite.
A small elite of people who knew only exclusivity would save their positions.
The military was eqally antisemitic, but both did not include killing all jews in their antisemitism. I once met an very old guy who was a member of a so - called "Verbindung" a kind of students club with distinctive nationalistic and patriotic views. He seriously complained that Hitler had made any antisemitism impossible for the coming time.
After a short shock iasked how this was meant and he explained me, that of course a jewish lawyer, officer or judge had been inacceptable, but to kill them was also not the proper idea.
IMO at universities etc. the antisemitism was meant to keep jews out, as it was before the emancipation. They were still seen by some as apart and special.

Still, when you radicalize this, some people found it easy to join the SS (the higher ranks were normally superbly educated) and work on a neat and proper Final Solution.
And this still gives me shivers.

Regards
the germanguy

 

[The Rabbi]

You realize you pretty much validated Goldhagen's hypothesis, right?

 

[mdn2000]

My Lady Rachel, you posts seem good, I dont have time to respond in detail nor do I feel a need to. However a fact of history right to the end is ordinary germans willingly participated in the holocaust. Sure some through fear, but the majority that participated did so because they wanted to. Not because they were tricked by Nazi propaganda but simply because this is what the german people beleived. This is documented. The hatred did not come from Hitler, it came from German culture, a culture that developed well before the 1900's.

Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen

Read this book, its the most important book on the subject, well maybe the second most important next to the "The Black Book".

Well , as a german I am somewhat biased in this question, but nonetheless an answer must be given to this.

First of all, I totally disagree with Goldhagen. I have read the book, but I do not follow it´s conclusions.
The theory, that the Germans had a culture with an antisemitism incorporated, that was directed to exterminate, is at least doubtful.
Also, the explanation why antisemitism was not virulent after 1945 is also plain stupid.
It is because we were culturally educated by the US and the British to not continue this.
I do not buy this.
Then any danger would end with the germans.

In 1900, if you would have asked any european, who might try to kill every Jew in Europe, most people would have guessed Russia or France. Germany would have been perhaps on a fourth or fifth place.

On the contrary, the jewish community in Germany was very upper-middle-class and therefore well connected with the elite.
In then Germany the jewish population was nearly totally assimilated within the rest of the society. Perhaps a jewish member of the high nobility was still seen as very far away and a jewish Field Marshal would have been still unthinklable. Nonetheless, before WWI, nobody would have thought about killing every german jew.

That 30 years later it would have been thinkable to get rid of the german jews, was very far off the public mind.

The Holocaust simply did not happen because every German decided to kill the jewish neighbours. Or already wanted to.
It sunk gradually in the peoples mind and in wartime most germans hid behind their own problems.

The separation of the Jews started early after 1933 and became very gradually worse.
It was difficult to judge, where all the new laws were directed.
I.e.: After 1933 german jewish pupils were excluded from certain sport festivities in school.
This might have caused some irritation, but is at least not so bad. Then it was forbidden for german jews as doctors to pratice on the so-called "Aryan Germans". Might irritate, but also at least not so dangerous. So gradually the jewish part of the germans was step by step separated from the rest and the people got used to the idea that these jews were distinctively different. And they were not so visible anymore.
There has been some form of protest, but this was easily quelled. Any form of discontent might have been reported to the almighty Gestapo and therefore people kept their mouth shut.
Also, a certain antisemitism was there as well. A lot of large businesses were owned by jews, so some agreed, that they had too much influence and so on. Also, as most jews were rather middle-class, a certain grudge against the alledgedly richer and cleverer jews was there as well. (Dr. Goldstein is rich, my savings are gone due to inflaltion - it has to do with him beeing Jew).

And everything of these things was done by proper bureaucratic procedure.
Behind this a lot of people have easily hidden (An order is an order !).

The real bloody work was done by a rather small minority of either very brutal or very cool and coldhearted killers apart from Germany. It is no surprise, that all extermination camps were in Poland. What was in Germany was still gruesome enough, but these were also apart from the cities.

And we should never forget, that although Germany had the biggest and decisive part in this, a lot of people from other nationalities wholeheartly helped with the killing. Some had no other choice (beeing occupied) some plainly refused (Denmark) some were ideologically on the same level (Croatia back then).

Therefore, my answer would be:

A certain number of factors were already there, a lot of factors were personalized in Hitler himself and a lot of things were coincidence.

I would bet, that nearly every society can single out a certain group (Peasants, Intellectuals, Muslims, Jews - whatever) and slowly degrade them.
From there to the will of total extinction it is only a small step.

There is only one small and nearly invisible line after which barbarism begins.
Therefore I always feel uneasy, when a certain group is singled out as scapegoat for whatever. I think it already starts at this point.

What now exactly lied behind the antisemistism of Hitler I still can not grasp. If you read his works it all runs down "It were the Jews". If you then firmly believe this, the next logical step is to get rid of them.
By the Way, Hitler was also not very fond of Christianity (made the germans too soft), Liberals, Conservatives, the Disabled, the Blacks, Homosexuals, Sinti and Roma - they also died in the camps, but formed a too small number individually to be remembered. It were not only six million jews, but also nearly 3,4 million soviet soldiers and the above groups which were considered as unworthy to live. The number of people killed in concentration camps are about 11 million.
And for these, there was no preexisting hatred or cultural anti-whatever within the german culture.

Never forget: The first who died in German Concetration Camps were .... Germans.

Regards

the germanguy

I did not read the book to take the authors perspective nor did I pay attention to any theory, I should of qualified this but I had forgotten about this aspect. I just think if you want a book that discusses the history of germany leading to the holocaust this book fills in some big gaps. I dont need a scholar to tell me why human nature is what it is.

The holocaust although a unique event in history was just an example of human nature that exsists in all people, given the right set of circumstances we may see this type of human nature repeated.

I dont disagree with what you posted and as far as a theory goes I would have to go back to the book and see, what was usefull in the book is history not stated elsewhere. The history of the 1800's which is forgotten, ignored, or never known by so many when they speak of the holocaust.

I would like to defend the book with some clever lines and some nice quotes but I am traveling and my copy is at home, what I will say is this book is definately the best book on understanding.

Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen

I ignored the theory, for me it was a useful source of some history I did not know.

 

[germanguy]

You realize you pretty much validated Goldhagen's hypothesis, right?

Did I ?
On the contrary.
Goldhagen stated, that the antisemitism in Germany was different from anywhere else. It already incorporated the idea of the extinction of the jews.
My point was that antisemitism existed, but was rather aimed to limit the emancpation of jews or to prevent them of "intruding" elite circles like the military or the judicary in germany.
I really doubt that this was much different in other countries in Europe around 1900.
I have no numbers, but the fact that there simply were not much high-ranking officers of jewish origin in France, Russia or Britain tells us something.

I do not think, that a majority of germans around 1910 would have agreed that there was a "jewish question" awaiting a solution. Many disliked jews, many saw them as strange or apart from other germans and many simply did not bother.

Only after World War I, when the Nazis became a political force, politics and antisemitism were successfully connected. And still, a lot of Nazis were "only" interested in getting the Jews out of Germany.

I remember what my grandmother told me about this time.
She had jewish neighbours she neither liked or disliked. That these neighbours were orderly and behaving themselves according to the standards of the time was far more important to her than their religion. She more disliked catholics, beeing a protestant.

On the other hand she always told me, that she disliked the jewish influence on the economy. To cut that back seemed to her a good idea. (As well as cutting back any foreign influence).

When her neighbours emigrated to the Netherlands she helped them to smuggle out cash-money (so she told). She told me, that she did not understand why the government said that her nice and orderly neighbours had to leave the country. But furious opposition also was not her thing.

She simply did not connect her general antisemitism to her neighbours.
At no time she had the idea of killing all Jews or even that there was an existing problem crossed her mind. After 1945 she met anything about the Holocaust with disbelief. Only when she was confronted with the facts, she believed it.

And that is my point I hold against Goldhagens thesis:

There was antisemitism in Germany and it was widespread. Nontheless, it was not automatically leading to the Holocaust. This needed more ingredients.

Also, Goldhagen states, that Germany after the war became a liberal democracy and learned it´s lesson.
And there I see the problem of his thesis.

For centuries the germans had uphold antisemitism, nurtured it and lived it out in the Holocaust, when having the chance.
Then, after total defeat, they were able to make a total turn, embrace western ideas and build up a remarkably liberal democracy.

Or to put it simpler: Before 1945 we were culturally a bunch of people eager to kill, when given the chance and then after 1945, we had learned our lesson and shook off this attitude. (Or so we hope)

I think this is too simple.

The german democracy of 1949 had roots and traditions going back to it´s own history and was therefore not necessarily something to be totally invented anew. Also, there were political forces using antisemitism, but only the Nazis made a political program out of it.
This was disgusting enough, but still not aiming for the Holocaust.

I think that Goldhagens answer to the question why the Holocaust happened is therefore too simple. He only cites the sources suppporting his thesis and ignores other sources contrdicting it.

Notwithstanding, his thesis has it´s merits, as you have to look closely in to Germanys past to understand what happened.

My personal thesis is, that any society can single out a certain group and kill it.
This happened in Ruanda, in Yugoslavia and a lot of other places. We are alltogether quite bloodthirsty apes.
But in Germany this was done by one of the biggest industrial powers and by one of the most skilled and sophisticated people. This made a difference.

regards
ze germanguy

 

[The Rabbi]

I dont recall Goldhagen saying that German anti semitism was different. My memory may be poor. But he does say that non-Jewish Germans believed the existence of Jewish Germans constituted a problem. You've pretty much said this yourself.
The other countries werent a lot better, look at Drefuss in France. But an unfortunate combination of factors led to the Endloessung.
My favorite Holocaust memorial btw is in Altona. You should see it sometime.

 

[germanguy]

My Lady Rachel, you posts seem good, I dont have time to respond in detail nor do I feel a need to. However a fact of history right to the end is ordinary germans willingly participated in the holocaust. Sure some through fear, but the majority that participated did so because they wanted to. Not because they were tricked by Nazi propaganda but simply because this is what the german people beleived. This is documented. The hatred did not come from Hitler, it came from German culture, a culture that developed well before the 1900's.

Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen

Read this book, its the most important book on the subject, well maybe the second most important next to the "The Black Book".

Well , as a german I am somewhat biased in this question, but nonetheless an answer must be given to this.

First of all, I totally disagree with Goldhagen. I have read the book, but I do not follow it´s conclusions.
The theory, that the Germans had a culture with an antisemitism incorporated, that was directed to exterminate, is at least doubtful.
Also, the explanation why antisemitism was not virulent after 1945 is also plain stupid.
It is because we were culturally educated by the US and the British to not continue this.
I do not buy this.
Then any danger would end with the germans.

In 1900, if you would have asked any european, who might try to kill every Jew in Europe, most people would have guessed Russia or France. Germany would have been perhaps on a fourth or fifth place.

On the contrary, the jewish community in Germany was very upper-middle-class and therefore well connected with the elite.
In then Germany the jewish population was nearly totally assimilated within the rest of the society. Perhaps a jewish member of the high nobility was still seen as very far away and a jewish Field Marshal would have been still unthinklable. Nonetheless, before WWI, nobody would have thought about killing every german jew.

That 30 years later it would have been thinkable to get rid of the german jews, was very far off the public mind.

The Holocaust simply did not happen because every German decided to kill the jewish neighbours. Or already wanted to.
It sunk gradually in the peoples mind and in wartime most germans hid behind their own problems.

The separation of the Jews started early after 1933 and became very gradually worse.
It was difficult to judge, where all the new laws were directed.
I.e.: After 1933 german jewish pupils were excluded from certain sport festivities in school.
This might have caused some irritation, but is at least not so bad. Then it was forbidden for german jews as doctors to pratice on the so-called "Aryan Germans". Might irritate, but also at least not so dangerous. So gradually the jewish part of the germans was step by step separated from the rest and the people got used to the idea that these jews were distinctively different. And they were not so visible anymore.
There has been some form of protest, but this was easily quelled. Any form of discontent might have been reported to the almighty Gestapo and therefore people kept their mouth shut.
Also, a certain antisemitism was there as well. A lot of large businesses were owned by jews, so some agreed, that they had too much influence and so on. Also, as most jews were rather middle-class, a certain grudge against the alledgedly richer and cleverer jews was there as well. (Dr. Goldstein is rich, my savings are gone due to inflaltion - it has to do with him beeing Jew).

And everything of these things was done by proper bureaucratic procedure.
Behind this a lot of people have easily hidden (An order is an order !).

The real bloody work was done by a rather small minority of either very brutal or very cool and coldhearted killers apart from Germany. It is no surprise, that all extermination camps were in Poland. What was in Germany was still gruesome enough, but these were also apart from the cities.

And we should never forget, that although Germany had the biggest and decisive part in this, a lot of people from other nationalities wholeheartly helped with the killing. Some had no other choice (beeing occupied) some plainly refused (Denmark) some were ideologically on the same level (Croatia back then).

Therefore, my answer would be:

A certain number of factors were already there, a lot of factors were personalized in Hitler himself and a lot of things were coincidence.

I would bet, that nearly every society can single out a certain group (Peasants, Intellectuals, Muslims, Jews - whatever) and slowly degrade them.
From there to the will of total extinction it is only a small step.

There is only one small and nearly invisible line after which barbarism begins.
Therefore I always feel uneasy, when a certain group is singled out as scapegoat for whatever. I think it already starts at this point.

What now exactly lied behind the antisemistism of Hitler I still can not grasp. If you read his works it all runs down "It were the Jews". If you then firmly believe this, the next logical step is to get rid of them.
By the Way, Hitler was also not very fond of Christianity (made the germans too soft), Liberals, Conservatives, the Disabled, the Blacks, Homosexuals, Sinti and Roma - they also died in the camps, but formed a too small number individually to be remembered. It were not only six million jews, but also nearly 3,4 million soviet soldiers and the above groups which were considered as unworthy to live. The number of people killed in concentration camps are about 11 million.
And for these, there was no preexisting hatred or cultural anti-whatever within the german culture.

Never forget: The first who died in German Concetration Camps were .... Germans.

Regards

the germanguy

I did not read the book to take the authors perspective nor did I pay attention to any theory, I should of qualified this but I had forgotten about this aspect. I just think if you want a book that discusses the history of germany leading to the holocaust this book fills in some big gaps. I dont need a scholar to tell me why human nature is what it is.

The holocaust although a unique event in history was just an example of human nature that exsists in all people, given the right set of circumstances we may see this type of human nature repeated.

I dont disagree with what you posted and as far as a theory goes I would have to go back to the book and see, what was usefull in the book is history not stated elsewhere. The history of the 1800's which is forgotten, ignored, or never known by so many when they speak of the holocaust.

I would like to defend the book with some clever lines and some nice quotes but I am traveling and my copy is at home, what I will say is this book is definately the best book on understanding.

Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen

I ignored the theory, for me it was a useful source of some history I did not know.

Hm,
I also agree about the fact, that the book has it´s merits, but from a purely professional point of view (I am an historian as well), I see a lot of technical flaws.
I do not mean, that Goldhagen bend facts or something like that.
But, especially where he describes the actions of Polizeibataillon 101, sometimes historical facts and narrative parts get intermingled. Also I can not follow some of his conclusions.

Goldhagen writes with a very good style and therefore his book is better readable than other, but it is by far not the best book about the Holocaust. IMHO.

In the 1990s this book shook loose a large debate. It made front-page stories and got into national news as top story. But if you start to debate this book and it´s technical flaws, you easily are in uncomfortable neighborhood to far-right idiots. Also, the techno-babble of historians caneasily bore you to death.

Notwithstanding, I can not follow his central thesis of an "exterminational anti-semitism" deeply-rooted in german culture.
It is a little bit like telling a story from the end on. The end then looks inevitable and you only see what lead to this end. That there were twists and turns and other possibilities is then overseen.

In that regard Goldhagen thinks like a lawyer, who rolls up the case from the deed backwards.

Regards
ze germanguy

 

[Sunni Man]

I think it is wrong to blame the German people or any other nationality for having anti-semitism.

In reality, they are the victims and anti-semitism is just a symptom.

I have posted before a list of 109 countries that the Jews have been expelled from since 300 A.D.

This begs several questions:

What do the jews do that makes people turn against them?

The jews have been expelled from just about every country and culture thay come into contact with throughout history. Why?

Is there something in their character or demeanor that causes anti-semitism to rise up out of ordinary people?

It seems that non jewish people are the victims of anti-semitism.

That iit s forced upon them by the jews.

These books are written trying to explain anti-semitism and it's rise among various people and nations.

This is wrong, because it is focusing on the victims.

When the real focus should be on the jews themselves. Who are the true source of all anti-semitism.

 

[germanguy]

I think it is wrong to blame the German people or any other nationality for having anti-semitism.

In reality, they are the victims and anti-semitism is just a symptom.

I have posted before a list of 109 countries that the Jews have been expelled from since 300 A.D.

This begs several questions:

What do the jews do that makes people turn against them?

The jews have been expelled from just about every country and culture thay come into contact with throughout history. Why?

Is there something in their character or demeanor that causes anti-semitism to rise up out of ordinary people?

It seems that non jewish people are the victims of anti-semitism.

That iit s forced upon them by the jews.

These books are written trying to explain anti-semitism and it's rise among various people and nations.

This is wrong, because it is focusing on the victims.

When the real focus should be on the jews themselves. Who are the true source of all anti-semitism.

Freedom of speech is such a sweet thing to have. Sometimes not.

Your argument reads the same as when woman have been raped.
They surely have asked for it, otherwise nobody would have raped them.

You make me sick

no regards
ze germanguy

 

[Sunni Man]

Anti-semitism just didn't appear out of thin air.

The jews brought it with them from the last country they were kicked out of.

Everywhere they go. The jews spread anti-semitism on unsuspecting people and nations.

They never take the blame for what they have unleashed and blame the victims.

 

[jillian]

Depends how you define assimilation.
In regards of the Jews it was a two - way thing.
They needed to be accepted as equal citizens and they needed to accept german citizenship.
But actually there was no proper distinction between a german jew and a non-jewish german. The german jews formed an important part of the german culture (just see how they added to the success of Hollywood - Billy Wilder and Lubitsch I only name).
So they were mostly not someone apart, but in the heart of it. We have thrown that away and this is the even sadder part of the story.

Before the 19th century this was different. In the best cases they were "Schutzjuden", special subjects under protection of the Emperor or local king / prince and therefore with a somewhat shaky status. Also they had limited rights and certain duties to fulfil.
In the middle ages this was even worse, when they were in ghettos and subject to constant danger in many parts.

So, in the period when the nation states were formed, the vast majority of jews in germany became german jews. Somewhat restrained still, but undoubted an important part of what germany was then.
So actually antisemitism formed a problem where there mostly was no problem any more.

IMO the Holocaust changed that deceisively, as now Zionism gave a way out of this process. But with that I touch thin ice, as my knowledge about this subject is limited.

regards
the germanguy

You have hit on a number of very interesting points. I think you are absolutely correct that there was no proper distinction between Jewish and non-Jewish Germans pre-WWII (unlike in the Soviet Union where there were separate passports for Soviets and Jews). That Jews were an integral part of German society and made huge contributions to, and derived great benefit from, German society is incontrovertible. I think that is part of the horror of what later happened post WWI ... at least from a Jewish perspective. It served as a reminder that if things go bad economically or a scapegoat is needed, Jews are not safe. It is one of the reasons that when certain people say they don't understand the need for a Jewish state or think Jews would ever be safe living in a muslim dominated society (e.g, after natural birth rate differences would leave an arab israel if there were ever a "right of return" or a single state solution in the mid east) that it is perceived as anti-semitism.

I have enjoyed watching your conversation on this topic.

 

[mdn2000]

Germanguy, I have not read your posts in depth, I scanned through them and can see that I agree.

As far as books go I am always open for suggestions. I kind of concentrate on old books. I like to see how people thought back when the events happened.

Many events in history lead up to the Holocaust, in order to understand I must read not one book, not two, but many.

Most people dont have the proper perspective to understand racism and prejudice, its not simply hating for no reason at all, at least when a whole culture is prejudiced.

Goldhagen I beleive stated in his book one must be able to have the perspective of the people of the time in question.

I look at what was their education, their beliefs, superstitions, did they beleive in ghosts, were they afraid of demons in the Teutonic forest (I hope I got that right). What did the religions teach, after all that was the only place anyone got an education at least speaking of the masses. What laws exsisted, where did the Jews live.

The facts are the holocaust happened for many, many, events in history, the money grabbers may of originated from the Rothschilds owning banks, making a fortune from nothing, this created envy, or how about the way the jews dressed, Hitler even stated in his book that the jews dressed bizarre. Imagine the uneducated man of the late 1800's seeing a crazy jew dressed all in black, huge beard, braids, crosses, dressed real crazy, saying his crazy prayer, bowing repeatedly, and than on passover this nut paints the blood of a sheep or goat around the door to his house, I imagine that would send the uneducated man just stepping out of the dark ages for a loop, and it did.

Just look at how people today beleive anything they are told and how hateful they are of those they disagree with, the global warming nuts are good example of this, imagine the same people just stepping out of the dark ages watching a tradional jew paint his door with blood and than going to church to listen to the preist bad mouth the jews and than on his way home he hears that the jews are the problem for his lack of work or food.

The 1800's led to the holocaust
The dark ages led to the holocaust
Hard times and politics played their part
through in a cup of propaganda
incite the masses a bit by being very different
a little human nature for good measure
throw in a war or two
advance all of europe into the industrial age in an exrtremely short time

The holocaust can be repeated, it was human nature. I see little signs of hate everywhere but more so when some are confronted with facts they are unable to argue with, talk about bringing out the worst of some people.

 

[Sunni Man]

Even though anti-semitism seems illogical.

It seems to be the norm.

Whether the jews are in europe, asia, or the middle east. They create anti-semitism.

Anti-semitism pre dates Islam. So you can't blame it on that religion.

Different cultures, languages, religions, governments, and races, have all been the victims of jewish induced anti-semitism.

Again, what is it about the jews, that seems to always give birth to anti-semitism, no matter where they go?

 

[Charles Stucker]

Again, what is it about the jews, that seems to always give birth to anti-semitism, no matter where they go?

They maintain their own language, culture and customs, so they stand out.
Prior to the modern era most people were terribly set against anything different.
Different = Bad
Thus since the Jews were different, by virtue of not fitting in, they had to be bad.
Simple bigotry, that's all.

 

[The Rabbi]

That doesnt really wash. The Amish do all those things but I've never heard anti-Amish sentiment. The oversees Chinese maintain their own language, customs and appearance but I haven't seen anti-Chinese sentiment in this country since the 1920s or so.
So why the difference?

 

[Charles Stucker]

That doesnt really wash. The Amish do all those things but I've never heard anti-Amish sentiment. The oversees Chinese maintain their own language, customs and appearance but I haven't seen anti-Chinese sentiment in this country since the 1920s or so.
So why the difference?

Sorry for not being clear. I was answering why the Jews were hates throughout history.
The US is a modern state in an era which has a history of generally greater tolerance.
Amish are rural farmers; the groups I'm familiar with are predominately in Pennsylvania. They have simple lifestyles which few envy. They live apart so people are not confronted by them daily, and when one does travel through their lands they appear like something form a history lesson.
Chinese still have some people who are jealous of their success and hence distrust/dislike them. Watch tech fields until you see someone complaining about the "Chinese guy" who got the job because they were Chinese and would work for peanuts. It's just a short step from there to intolerance. It is not so noticeable because it gets lost in the general tension between blacks and whites, a tension often exacerbated by black leaders looking to gain political support from their rabble rousing.