Why Must We Abandon Our Religious Beliefs to Operate A Business?

[Lastamender]

Don't. Give. A. Fuck.

They don't want to bake you a cake. Doesn't matter why. Go find another baker. Give them a shitty review on Yelp and Facebook. But hauling them into court and closing down their livelihood because your feewings are hurt? Get the fuck over yourself.

I agree, that's the way the law should be.

Although that doesn't preclude the discussion what the law actually is or correcting people when they make up alternative facts to fit a narrative instead of the real facts of the case(s).



>>>>

the law should not and doesn't allow bigoted lowlife twits to decide they can jim crow others when they're working in or running a public business.

Have I thanked you yet for showing up and dropping the IQ of the entire discussion by 10 points just by your presence?

Hmmmmm....is that a christian response

Hmmmmm....is that a christian response

Better than an Islamic one , your head would be on one side of the room and your keyboard on the other. Count your blessings, you dumb fuck.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I wonder how much these folks screaming "abomination!" are enjoying their lives as Hasidic Jews. I don't think they have ever read what the Christians refer to as the Old Testament. Genesis is interesting, but so are Leviticus and Deuteronomy. I guess if any have a brother who dies childless, they will have sex with their brother's widow to produce a child in their brother's name. Oh, there is lots in the OT. Any of you need to purify yourselves? Do any of you believe in the Republic, or are you still monarchists? And then there is the rule against adultery that made it in to the Top Ten, as did the prohibition of theft. Hummm.

I wonder why you think anyone gives a rat's furry fat ass WHAT you think about them or their beliefs.

Would you fascists PLEASE put this on a poster over your desks? YOUR OPINION MATTERS TO NO ONE BUT YOU. NO ONE NEEDS YOUR PERMISSION OR APPROVAL. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

I swear, you'd think I was speaking in Urdu or something, the way you nimrods can't comprehend this.

 

[bodecea]

That's the point the religious people would have to be selective and only allow people who aren't sinners to join their private cake club

Yes, that all sounds a LOT simpler and more logical than you just going and finding another fucking baker.

Why would a christian wanting a wedding cake have to go find another baker if they were refused service based on being christian?

because a particular Christian PROFESSIONAL cake baker may not want to meet the specifications of that particular
Christian's desired cake

do they advertise as Bakers of Faith?

does not matter. A professional does not have to
compromise his principles in the commission of his
art

A business person with a business license must follow business law. If you are an artist and think of yourself as such....then you don't need a business license.....then you don't have to follow business laws.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

I'm also not pushing for religious people being able to control how others live. Me refusing to do business with you isn't the same as me controlling how you live. Me offering jobs for voluntary applicants but not offering birth control as compensation is not the same as me controlling how you live. Just like lumping in hate and oppression with this level of discrimination, you're just trying to use hyperbole to make the concept we're discussing -feel- more threatening. I'm not interested in emotional appeals or some random website operator's opinions on history.

It's discrimination. It is marginalizing people. If you have the right to walk into a business expecting to be served and not be humiliated or inconvenienced, than every one does. Creating an environment where people do have to think about those things because of who they are is a form of control

But there is a fine line. Can you think of a situation where someone obscene is pushing a private business into refusing service?

Someone obscene?? Please rephrase the question

The example I like is does the Jewish tattoo artist have to give a guy a nazi tattoo?

I would say no because public accommodation laws and laws against discrimination do not cover political affiliation or ideology. Just as an aside , I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

 

[jillian]

Don't. Give. A. Fuck.

They don't want to bake you a cake. Doesn't matter why. Go find another baker. Give them a shitty review on Yelp and Facebook. But hauling them into court and closing down their livelihood because your feewings are hurt? Get the fuck over yourself.

I agree, that's the way the law should be.

Although that doesn't preclude the discussion what the law actually is or correcting people when they make up alternative facts to fit a narrative instead of the real facts of the case(s).



>>>>

the law should not and doesn't allow bigoted lowlife twits to decide they can jim crow others when they're working in or running a public business.

Have I thanked you yet for showing up and dropping the IQ of the entire discussion by 10 points just by your presence?

Hmmmmm....is that a christian response

Hmmmmm....is that a christian response

Better than an Islamic one , your head would be on one side of the room and your keyboard on the other. Count your blessings, you dumb fuck.

psssst..... muslims wouldn;t get to refuse serving you in this country. so no one really cares about that "Islamic" response.

nutcase

 

[bodecea]

Don't. Give. A. Fuck.

They don't want to bake you a cake. Doesn't matter why. Go find another baker. Give them a shitty review on Yelp and Facebook. But hauling them into court and closing down their livelihood because your feewings are hurt? Get the fuck over yourself.

I agree, that's the way the law should be.

Although that doesn't preclude the discussion what the law actually is or correcting people when they make up alternative facts to fit a narrative instead of the real facts of the case(s).



>>>>

the law should not and doesn't allow bigoted lowlife twits to decide they can jim crow others when they're working in or running a public business.

Have I thanked you yet for showing up and dropping the IQ of the entire discussion by 10 points just by your presence?

Hmmmmm....is that a christian response

Hmmmmm....is that a christian response

Better than an Islamic one , your head would be on one side of the room and your keyboard on the other. Count your blessings, you dumb fuck.

Another christian response, right?

 

[Cecilie1200]

This is Masterpiece Cakeshop's advertising:

Are Black People Cursed? The Curse of Ham - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries

"Select from one of our galleries or order a custom design. Call or come in. We look forward to serving you!"

Discrimination, from a legal standpoint, means discriminating against a person based on that person's identity. If you're willing to do business with the person in question and offer them exactly the same product that you're offering everyone else, you're not discriminating between customers, you're discriminating between different types of products that you're willing or not willing to produce.

When you conflate these two concepts in order to "win" the argument, you're the one being obtuse.

#1 There was never any discussion of design (so saying things about requiring two grooms is false). This is agreed to in court documents in the Statement of Facts. To say different means you think Mr. Phillips (the baker) is a liar.

#2 The bakers (both Masterpiece Cakeshop and Sweetcakes by Melissa) both admit in court documents that the provided the product in question "i.e. wedding cakes".

#3 When you refuse to sell the exact same product based on who the people are, than yea you are discriminating between customers.


Below is one of the wedding cakes in the Masterpiece Cakeshop catalog (Wedding | MASTERPIECE CAKESHOP). Mr. Phillips would sell the cake to a different-sex couple, but would refuse to sell it to a same-sex couple. Same cake different people, basis then is the customers.

Don't. Give. A. Fuck.

They don't want to bake you a cake. Doesn't matter why. Go find another baker. Give them a shitty review on Yelp and Facebook. But hauling them into court and closing down their livelihood because your feewings are hurt? Get the fuck over yourself.

You are blaming the wrong people. Don't try to shove the responsibility on the would-be customers, who were legitimately there and who properly reported their experience to the state human-rights commission. Why do you think that people should shoulder the burden for people like phillips, drive all over the place, and possibly be subjected to more mistreatment, and keep silent to protect his conduct?They are not responsible for phillip's thoughts. He is. The onus is on him. If he wants to stay in business, he needs to get his personal shit together. It's not the responsibility of the general public to mollycoddle him.

And, actually, the case ended up in court when this guy challenged the decision of the state commission. The couple did not haul him into court. He hauled the state commission into court. He is entirely responsible for being in court and for his livelihood.

Whoa up there, Dobbins. "Drive all over the place"? What is this, 1980? Do we not have Internet and telephones and all manner of devices to find this shit out without "driving all over the place"? If you can't find a listing of gay-friendly, or even GAY-OWNED, bakeries and other wedding service providers, on the Internet within five minutes, you're more tech-clueless than my 80-year-old mother, or you're just not trying.

And can we please dispense with the quaint, and utterly dishonest, fiction that this couple didn't know prior to asking what this baker's beliefs were, and that they didn't ask SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of getting their feewings hurt so they could pitch a hissy fit about it? Puh-frigging-leeze.

Oh, and can I just point out that THEY HAD TO GO SOMEPLACE ELSE ANYWAY, and just doing so is a hell of a lot less trouble than doing so AND filing a fucking court case? So I'm gonna have to guess that speed and convenience PROBABLY was not a motivating factor in the decision process here.

 

[DOTR]

, I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

Never give a (((liberal))) an inch.

 

[jillian]

I'm also not pushing for religious people being able to control how others live. Me refusing to do business with you isn't the same as me controlling how you live. Me offering jobs for voluntary applicants but not offering birth control as compensation is not the same as me controlling how you live. Just like lumping in hate and oppression with this level of discrimination, you're just trying to use hyperbole to make the concept we're discussing -feel- more threatening. I'm not interested in emotional appeals or some random website operator's opinions on history.

It's discrimination. It is marginalizing people. If you have the right to walk into a business expecting to be served and not be humiliated or inconvenienced, than every one does. Creating an environment where people do have to think about those things because of who they are is a form of control

But there is a fine line. Can you think of a situation where someone obscene is pushing a private business into refusing service?

Someone obscene?? Please rephrase the question

The example I like is does the Jewish tattoo artist have to give a guy a nazi tattoo?

I would say no because public accommodation laws and laws against discrimination to not cover political affiliation or ideology. Just as an aside , I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

I'm still not getting the insanity that cause someone to think that they should have the right to put up a sign excluding people from their businesses.

but then again, I guess the jim crow losers have never changed.... only their target.

 

[bodecea]

the S and M queen thinks she can bully everyone. it's so cute.... but then again, I expect nothing less from trash.

You arent dealing with your mother here. Show some respect.

Family attack, eh?

 

[bodecea]

, I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

Never give a (((liberal))) an inch.

View attachment 183680

I see how you can only make a point by grossly misrepresenting the issue AND showing violent threats.

 

[DOTR]

in the commission of his
art

A business person with a business license must follow business law. If you are an artist and think of yourself as such....then you don't need a business license.....then you don't have to follow business laws.[/QUOTE]

And business laws are unassailable and never to be questioned right? Nice way to cut off debate...and enforce compliance.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm also not pushing for religious people being able to control how others live. Me refusing to do business with you isn't the same as me controlling how you live. Me offering jobs for voluntary applicants but not offering birth control as compensation is not the same as me controlling how you live. Just like lumping in hate and oppression with this level of discrimination, you're just trying to use hyperbole to make the concept we're discussing -feel- more threatening. I'm not interested in emotional appeals or some random website operator's opinions on history.

It's discrimination. It is marginalizing people. If you have the right to walk into a business expecting to be served and not be humiliated or inconvenienced, than every one does. Creating an environment where people do have to think about those things because of who they are is a form of control

What in the hell makes you think the rest of us are any more exempt from unpleasant experiences than gay people are? Hell, I rack up at least one encounter with an asshole every time I leave the fucking house. So what? Butch the fuck up and learn what most adults do: no one is entitled to universal approbation, or to always feel spiffy. Cecilie's Rule #1: Humans suck.

No one has to "create an environment" where people have to think about the possibility of unpleasantness entering their lives. We have that environment by default; it's called "a world where other people exist".

 

[DOTR]

, I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

Never give a (((liberal))) an inch.

View attachment 183680

I see how you can only make a point by grossly misrepresenting the issue AND showing violent threats.

What you see is that I see right through your masters. The goal was always control and elimination of christian and cultural norms.

 

[bodecea]

It's discrimination. It is marginalizing people. If you have the right to walk into a business expecting to be served and not be humiliated or inconvenienced, than every one does. Creating an environment where people do have to think about those things because of who they are is a form of control

But there is a fine line. Can you think of a situation where someone obscene is pushing a private business into refusing service?

Someone obscene?? Please rephrase the question

The example I like is does the Jewish tattoo artist have to give a guy a nazi tattoo?

I would say no because public accommodation laws and laws against discrimination to not cover political affiliation or ideology. Just as an aside , I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

I'm still not getting the insanity that cause someone to think that they should have the right to put up a sign excluding people from their businesses.

but then again, I guess the jim crow losers have never changed.... only their target.

I think what WW is saying is that he hopes our nation has progressed so much that people don't need the law to force them to serve all equally, that the court of public opinion would take care of the bigots of all sorts. I don't know if he's being naive tho.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Don't. Give. A. Fuck.

They don't want to bake you a cake. Doesn't matter why. Go find another baker. Give them a shitty review on Yelp and Facebook. But hauling them into court and closing down their livelihood because your feewings are hurt? Get the fuck over yourself.

I agree, that's the way the law should be.

Although that doesn't preclude the discussion what the law actually is or correcting people when they make up alternative facts to fit a narrative instead of the real facts of the case(s).



>>>>

the law should not and doesn't allow bigoted lowlife twits to decide they can jim crow others when they're working in or running a public business.

Have I thanked you yet for showing up and dropping the IQ of the entire discussion by 10 points just by your presence?

Hmmmmm....is that a christian response

the S and M queen thinks she can bully everyone. it's so cute.... but then again, I expect nothing less from trash.

The judgemental, hypocritical prude thinks she can lecture everyone else about sexual freedom. It's so NOT cute. But then again, I expect nothing less from ignorant trash.

 

[DOTR]

Hmmmmm....is that a christian response

Hmmm...would you know a Christian response if you saw one?

 

[Lysistrata]

This is Masterpiece Cakeshop's advertising:

Are Black People Cursed? The Curse of Ham - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries

"Select from one of our galleries or order a custom design. Call or come in. We look forward to serving you!"

Discrimination, from a legal standpoint, means discriminating against a person based on that person's identity. If you're willing to do business with the person in question and offer them exactly the same product that you're offering everyone else, you're not discriminating between customers, you're discriminating between different types of products that you're willing or not willing to produce.

When you conflate these two concepts in order to "win" the argument, you're the one being obtuse.

#1 There was never any discussion of design (so saying things about requiring two grooms is false). This is agreed to in court documents in the Statement of Facts. To say different means you think Mr. Phillips (the baker) is a liar.

#2 The bakers (both Masterpiece Cakeshop and Sweetcakes by Melissa) both admit in court documents that the provided the product in question "i.e. wedding cakes".

#3 When you refuse to sell the exact same product based on who the people are, than yea you are discriminating between customers.


Below is one of the wedding cakes in the Masterpiece Cakeshop catalog (Wedding | MASTERPIECE CAKESHOP). Mr. Phillips would sell the cake to a different-sex couple, but would refuse to sell it to a same-sex couple. Same cake different people, basis then is the customers.

Don't. Give. A. Fuck.

They don't want to bake you a cake. Doesn't matter why. Go find another baker. Give them a shitty review on Yelp and Facebook. But hauling them into court and closing down their livelihood because your feewings are hurt? Get the fuck over yourself.

You are blaming the wrong people. Don't try to shove the responsibility on the would-be customers, who were legitimately there and who properly reported their experience to the state human-rights commission. Why do you think that people should shoulder the burden for people like phillips, drive all over the place, and possibly be subjected to more mistreatment, and keep silent to protect his conduct?They are not responsible for phillip's thoughts. He is. The onus is on him. If he wants to stay in business, he needs to get his personal shit together. It's not the responsibility of the general public to mollycoddle him.

And, actually, the case ended up in court when this guy challenged the decision of the state commission. The couple did not haul him into court. He hauled the state commission into court. He is entirely responsible for being in court and for his livelihood.

Whoa up there, Dobbins. "Drive all over the place"? What is this, 1980? Do we not have Internet and telephones and all manner of devices to find this shit out without "driving all over the place"? If you can't find a listing of gay-friendly, or even GAY-OWNED, bakeries and other wedding service providers, on the Internet within five minutes, you're more tech-clueless than my 80-year-old mother, or you're just not trying.

And can we please dispense with the quaint, and utterly dishonest, fiction that this couple didn't know prior to asking what this baker's beliefs were, and that they didn't ask SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of getting their feewings hurt so they could pitch a hissy fit about it? Puh-frigging-leeze.

You are still trying to transfer responsibility to the customer and away from the phillips and his ilk. No customer needs to inquire into anyone's beliefs before going shopping. How would this couple know about this guy's idiosyncrasies? You are being very dishonest. The couple just went in to order a cake. It was this phillips who turned them down, and they just left. You just can't get it through your head that other people are not responsible for the behavior of people like him. He is entirely responsible for his actions, which were totally inconsistent with his advertising. If he suffered, it was suffering of his own making.

Yes, people who are subjected to discrimination and violations of PA laws have the right to report it to the appropriate authorities. The next time I report someone's misconduct, I'll remember that you think that this is a "hissy fit" and I just should hang my head and "move along," and be silent to protect the imbecile who mistreated me. Oh, puleezzze!

Neither the LGBT community, nor the rest of us, owe people like phillips anything whatsoever.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm also not pushing for religious people being able to control how others live. Me refusing to do business with you isn't the same as me controlling how you live. Me offering jobs for voluntary applicants but not offering birth control as compensation is not the same as me controlling how you live. Just like lumping in hate and oppression with this level of discrimination, you're just trying to use hyperbole to make the concept we're discussing -feel- more threatening. I'm not interested in emotional appeals or some random website operator's opinions on history.

It's discrimination. It is marginalizing people. If you have the right to walk into a business expecting to be served and not be humiliated or inconvenienced, than every one does. Creating an environment where people do have to think about those things because of who they are is a form of control

But there is a fine line. Can you think of a situation where someone obscene is pushing a private business into refusing service?

Someone obscene?? Please rephrase the question

The example I like is does the Jewish tattoo artist have to give a guy a nazi tattoo?

I would say no because public accommodation laws and laws against discrimination do not cover political affiliation or ideology. Just as an aside , I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

Oh my God, WHY do you imbeciles insist on thinking "this should be the law, because this is what the law is now" is somehow a sensible, valid argument?

At the point where you said, "He does have to . . ." you became wrong, immoral, and a fascist. Congratulations.

 

[dblack]

Just as an aside , I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

It's all "in the area" of free speech. It's just not speech you want to tolerate.