Why Must We Abandon Our Religious Beliefs to Operate A Business?

[bodecea]

It's discrimination. It is marginalizing people. If you have the right to walk into a business expecting to be served and not be humiliated or inconvenienced, than every one does. Creating an environment where people do have to think about those things because of who they are is a form of control

But there is a fine line. Can you think of a situation where someone obscene is pushing a private business into refusing service?

Someone obscene?? Please rephrase the question

The example I like is does the Jewish tattoo artist have to give a guy a nazi tattoo?

I would say no because public accommodation laws and laws against discrimination do not cover political affiliation or ideology. Just as an aside , I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

What about the Miami bars that wouldn’t let us in? Apparently not cool enough

Why didn't they let you in?

 

[DOTR]

I can see how you can make your point by talking about "masters" and trying to generate fear that christians are being persecuted by making them actually follow the laws. What's next? Crying persecution because christians have to follow safety laws? Crying persecution because christians have to follow health laws?

Christians are being persecuted by overturning their laws and making them follow fiat instead. You can lie to yourself but I will keep calling you on it. We had laws we passed and they have been overturned by unelected judges.
If christian pass safety laws then yes they have to follow them. If safety laws are imposed by fiat then no...they have no duty to follow them. That is the essence of freedom.
This is something a serf like yourself simply cant grasp about the way free people think.
You are a loser. You could never get a law passed outlawing school prayer, legalizing abortion or creating homosexual marriage. So you got courts to do it. And you cant abide that any one person still is unbowed so you remind them that force will be used if they dont comply.

 

[DOTR]

Do you think it's ok for businesses to discriminate against christians because of their deep-seated beliefs about christians?

Do you think thats your business at all?

 

[DOTR]

No....if you'd been paying attention to how our government works, then you would know that if you feel a law is unjust you can work to have it judicially reviewed and perhaps struck down as unConstititional. And even if a law, such as PA laws are deemed Constitutional, you can still get your state to repeal them. So.....what have you actively been doing to make that happen in your state?

LOL. Not one word about convincing your fellow citizens or legislative branch to pass laws! Typical. Rule by the fiat of lifetime appointed judges...and if you dont like it see if you can get a judge in your own pocket.

 

[sealybobo]

But there is a fine line. Can you think of a situation where someone obscene is pushing a private business into refusing service?

Someone obscene?? Please rephrase the question

The example I like is does the Jewish tattoo artist have to give a guy a nazi tattoo?

I would say no because public accommodation laws and laws against discrimination do not cover political affiliation or ideology. Just as an aside , I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

What about the Miami bars that wouldn’t let us in? Apparently not cool enough

Why didn't they let you in?

Not dressed right, we were nobodies, exclusive, rich, famous people might go there.

It could be because you don’t have women with you but we were with my sister in laws. One was a 6 the other a 7 and that’s in Michigan. This was Miami. Lol. Deduct a point.

 

[sealybobo]

But there is a fine line. Can you think of a situation where someone obscene is pushing a private business into refusing service?

Someone obscene?? Please rephrase the question

The example I like is does the Jewish tattoo artist have to give a guy a nazi tattoo?

I would say no because public accommodation laws and laws against discrimination do not cover political affiliation or ideology. Just as an aside , I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

Oh my God, WHY do you imbeciles insist on thinking "this should be the law, because this is what the law is now" is somehow a sensible, valid argument?

At the point where you said, "He does have to . . ." you became wrong, immoral, and a fascist. Congratulations.

The fact is that it is the law. Deal with it. A fascist ? Really?

Yes or no a Jewish tattoo artist must give a nazi tattoo to a nazi

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

It's discrimination. It is marginalizing people. If you have the right to walk into a business expecting to be served and not be humiliated or inconvenienced, than every one does. Creating an environment where people do have to think about those things because of who they are is a form of control

But there is a fine line. Can you think of a situation where someone obscene is pushing a private business into refusing service?

Someone obscene?? Please rephrase the question

The example I like is does the Jewish tattoo artist have to give a guy a nazi tattoo?

I would say no because public accommodation laws and laws against discrimination do not cover political affiliation or ideology. Just as an aside , I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

What about the Miami bars that wouldn’t let us in? Apparently not cool enough

Dress code? Private club?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Someone obscene?? Please rephrase the question

The example I like is does the Jewish tattoo artist have to give a guy a nazi tattoo?

I would say no because public accommodation laws and laws against discrimination do not cover political affiliation or ideology. Just as an aside , I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

Oh my God, WHY do you imbeciles insist on thinking "this should be the law, because this is what the law is now" is somehow a sensible, valid argument?

At the point where you said, "He does have to . . ." you became wrong, immoral, and a fascist. Congratulations.

The fact is that it is the law. Deal with it. A fascist ? Really?

Yes or no a Jewish tattoo artist must give a nazi tattoo to a nazi

Already been answered:

"I would say no because public accommodation laws and laws against discrimination do not cover political affiliation or ideology. Just as an aside , I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake"

I will add that the artist could also post a notice saying that he does not provide political symbolism for anyone at any time. Game over. No discrimination

 

[bodecea]

I can see how you can make your point by talking about "masters" and trying to generate fear that christians are being persecuted by making them actually follow the laws. What's next? Crying persecution because christians have to follow safety laws? Crying persecution because christians have to follow health laws?

Christians are being persecuted by overturning their laws and making them follow fiat instead. You can lie to yourself but I will keep calling you on it. We had laws we passed and they have been overturned by unelected judges.
If christian pass safety laws then yes they have to follow them. If safety laws are imposed by fiat then no...they have no duty to follow them. That is the essence of freedom.
This is something a serf like yourself simply cant grasp about the way free people think.
You are a loser. You could never get a law passed outlawing school prayer, legalizing abortion or creating homosexual marriage. So you got courts to do it. And you cant abide that any one person still is unbowed so you remind them that force will be used if they dont comply.

"Christians are being persecuted by overturning THEIR laws".......oh, you mean christian sharia laws? Well, we aren't having any of that here in the good ole' U.S. of A. Take your theocratic laws somewhere else.

 

[DOTR]

Have I thanked you yet for showing up and dropping the IQ of the entire discussion by 10 points just by your presence?

Hmmmmm....is that a christian response

Hmmmmm....is that a christian response

Better than an Islamic one , your head would be on one side of the room and your keyboard on the other. Count your blessings, you dumb fuck.

Another christian response, right?

What makes you think it was a Christian response, desperation or stupidity, or both?

So....are you saying that christians can turn their "christianity" on and off like a switch? How convenient is THAT?

Your hatred for Christianity exists no matter what Christians do. You take an inordinate interest in them it seems. Whats it to you how they practice their religion?

 

[bodecea]

Do you think it's ok for businesses to discriminate against christians because of their deep-seated beliefs about christians?

Do you think thats your business at all?

If PA laws protect christians from being discriminated against in business....it's part of the agreement in order to get a business license. Don't you believe that businesses that are licensed should follow business laws?

 

[bodecea]

No....if you'd been paying attention to how our government works, then you would know that if you feel a law is unjust you can work to have it judicially reviewed and perhaps struck down as unConstititional. And even if a law, such as PA laws are deemed Constitutional, you can still get your state to repeal them. So.....what have you actively been doing to make that happen in your state?

LOL. Not one word about convincing your fellow citizens or legislative branch to pass laws! Typical. Rule by the fiat of lifetime appointed judges...and if you dont like it see if you can get a judge in your own pocket.

Do you know what repealing a law requires? Convincing your fellow citizens/legislative branch to REPEAL a law. What are YOU actively doing to get your state to repeal PA laws.....besides name-calling?

 

[DOTR]

"Christians are being persecuted by overturning THEIR laws".......oh, you mean christian sharia laws? Well, we aren't having any of that here in the good ole' U.S. of A. Take your theocratic laws somewhere else.

Sure. Get back to me after you visit Iran. The fact is only in Christian countries can you run your head...and still keep it. And you abuse the privilege. It is a sign of cowardice and little gratitude.

 

[DOTR]

Do you think it's ok for businesses to discriminate against christians because of their deep-seated beliefs about christians?

Do you think thats your business at all?

If PA laws protect christians from being discriminated against in business....it's part of the agreement in order to get a business license. Don't you believe that businesses that are licensed should follow business laws?

Actually no.

Now what do you say?

 

[sealybobo]

But there is a fine line. Can you think of a situation where someone obscene is pushing a private business into refusing service?

Someone obscene?? Please rephrase the question

The example I like is does the Jewish tattoo artist have to give a guy a nazi tattoo?

I would say no because public accommodation laws and laws against discrimination do not cover political affiliation or ideology. Just as an aside , I would bet that the baker could refuse to inscribe a cake with "God Loves Gays" because now we are getting into the area of free speech and artistic expression....but he does have to bake and sell the damned cake

What about the Miami bars that wouldn’t let us in? Apparently not cool enough

Dress code? Private club?

Yea. I’m assuming our Michigan jc penny look didn’t cut it.

 

[DOTR]

No....if you'd been paying attention to how our government works, then you would know that if you feel a law is unjust you can work to have it judicially reviewed and perhaps struck down as unConstititional. And even if a law, such as PA laws are deemed Constitutional, you can still get your state to repeal them. So.....what have you actively been doing to make that happen in your state?

LOL. Not one word about convincing your fellow citizens or legislative branch to pass laws! Typical. Rule by the fiat of lifetime appointed judges...and if you dont like it see if you can get a judge in your own pocket.

Do you know what repealing a law requires? Convincing your fellow citizens/legislative branch to REPEAL a law. What are YOU actively doing to get your state to repeal PA laws.....besides name-calling?

Not what you said. You said "struck down as unconstitutional". The way you have been taught. You are a loser when it comes to repealing laws.

 

[featherlite]

This is Masterpiece Cakeshop's advertising:

Are Black People Cursed? The Curse of Ham - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries

"Select from one of our galleries or order a custom design. Call or come in. We look forward to serving you!"

Discrimination, from a legal standpoint, means discriminating against a person based on that person's identity. If you're willing to do business with the person in question and offer them exactly the same product that you're offering everyone else, you're not discriminating between customers, you're discriminating between different types of products that you're willing or not willing to produce.

When you conflate these two concepts in order to "win" the argument, you're the one being obtuse.

#1 There was never any discussion of design (so saying things about requiring two grooms is false). This is agreed to in court documents in the Statement of Facts. To say different means you think Mr. Phillips (the baker) is a liar.

#2 The bakers (both Masterpiece Cakeshop and Sweetcakes by Melissa) both admit in court documents that the provided the product in question "i.e. wedding cakes".

#3 When you refuse to sell the exact same product based on who the people are, than yea you are discriminating between customers.


Below is one of the wedding cakes in the Masterpiece Cakeshop catalog (Wedding | MASTERPIECE CAKESHOP). Mr. Phillips would sell the cake to a different-sex couple, but would refuse to sell it to a same-sex couple. Same cake different people, basis then is the customers.

Don't. Give. A. Fuck.

They don't want to bake you a cake. Doesn't matter why. Go find another baker. Give them a shitty review on Yelp and Facebook. But hauling them into court and closing down their livelihood because your feewings are hurt? Get the fuck over yourself.

You are blaming the wrong people. Don't try to shove the responsibility on the would-be customers, who were legitimately there and who properly reported their experience to the state human-rights commission. Why do you think that people should shoulder the burden for people like phillips, drive all over the place, and possibly be subjected to more mistreatment, and keep silent to protect his conduct?They are not responsible for phillip's thoughts. He is. The onus is on him. If he wants to stay in business, he needs to get his personal shit together. It's not the responsibility of the general public to mollycoddle him.

And, actually, the case ended up in court when this guy challenged the decision of the state commission. The couple did not haul him into court. He hauled the state commission into court. He is entirely responsible for being in court and for his livelihood.

Whoa up there, Dobbins. "Drive all over the place"? What is this, 1980? Do we not have Internet and telephones and all manner of devices to find this shit out without "driving all over the place"? If you can't find a listing of gay-friendly, or even GAY-OWNED, bakeries and other wedding service providers, on the Internet within five minutes, you're more tech-clueless than my 80-year-old mother, or you're just not trying.

And can we please dispense with the quaint, and utterly dishonest, fiction that this couple didn't know prior to asking what this baker's beliefs were, and that they didn't ask SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of getting their feewings hurt so they could pitch a hissy fit about it? Puh-frigging-leeze.

Oh, and can I just point out that THEY HAD TO GO SOMEPLACE ELSE ANYWAY, and just doing so is a hell of a lot less trouble than doing so AND filing a fucking court case? So I'm gonna have to guess that speed and convenience PROBABLY was not a motivating factor in the decision process here.

Great idea, lets go backwards with discrimination.What could go wrong.
They arent being forced to perform the ceremony.

 

[bodecea]

Hmmmmm....is that a christian response

Hmmmmm....is that a christian response

Better than an Islamic one , your head would be on one side of the room and your keyboard on the other. Count your blessings, you dumb fuck.

Another christian response, right?

What makes you think it was a Christian response, desperation or stupidity, or both?

So....are you saying that christians can turn their "christianity" on and off like a switch? How convenient is THAT?

Your hatred for Christianity exists no matter what Christians do. You take an inordinate interest in them it seems. Whats it to you how they practice their religion?

I am not a fan of any patriarchal religion that tries to foist their version of sharia law on the rest of us. If your so-called version of christianity does that....then I'm not a fan.

 

[bodecea]

No....if you'd been paying attention to how our government works, then you would know that if you feel a law is unjust you can work to have it judicially reviewed and perhaps struck down as unConstititional. And even if a law, such as PA laws are deemed Constitutional, you can still get your state to repeal them. So.....what have you actively been doing to make that happen in your state?

LOL. Not one word about convincing your fellow citizens or legislative branch to pass laws! Typical. Rule by the fiat of lifetime appointed judges...and if you dont like it see if you can get a judge in your own pocket.

Do you know what repealing a law requires? Convincing your fellow citizens/legislative branch to REPEAL a law. What are YOU actively doing to get your state to repeal PA laws.....besides name-calling?

Not what you said. You said "struck down as unconstitutional". The way you have been taught. You are a loser when it comes to repealing laws.

Your reading comprehension is poor to say the least. You might want to re-read my post about laws being struck down as unConstitutional....that is the purpose of the Supreme Court......don't you know? BUT, that being said, even if the Court says a law IS Constitutional, that does not stop a state from repealing that law if they get enough votes to do so. Didn't you know that?

 

[bodecea]

Do you think it's ok for businesses to discriminate against christians because of their deep-seated beliefs about christians?

Do you think thats your business at all?

If PA laws protect christians from being discriminated against in business....it's part of the agreement in order to get a business license. Don't you believe that businesses that are licensed should follow business laws?

Actually no.

Now what do you say?

So....you support lying in order to get a license. That must be part of the christian way....just like we here that lying is acceptable for muslims to get their way too.