Why OCare and Socialized Medicine will inevitably Fail in the US - (Democrats Agree)

[tooAlive]

Why won't Obamacare and other forms of socialized medicine work here in the US? Those models are working so well in quasi-socialist wonderlands like Sweden.

The simple answer: We don't have enough doctors.

Lets compare the facts. Source

The US has 2.4 doctors for every 1,000 patients compared to Sweden's 3.8, Norway's 4.2, Austria's 4.9 and Greece's 6.2.

That's also the reason why healthcare in the united states is so expensive. We're extremely undermanned in the medical field. There's a large demand for doctors but the supply simply isn't there. Supply & demand.

I've also heard people say that there are 45 million uninsured Americans. Assuming that figure is accurate, what will happen if an additional 45 million people were insured and subsequently went to seek medical attention from an already limited pool of doctors?

It's also commonly known that the healthcare systems in socialist countries often suffer from long wait times due to a large amount of people seeking the same service simultaneously, what would happen here with sometimes up to 3 times less doctors as they do?

So before we try to implement a healthcare system like Obamacare that will "insure everyone" or a socialized system like they have in Sweden, we need to address the issue of not enough doctors.

How do we do that?

We can start by having the American Medical Association (quasi-union) stop artificially limiting the number of medical schools which artificially raises the cost of tuition, limits the number of students and consequently limits the amount of licensed doctors.

Over the last 100 years the number of medical schools has dropped by 22%, even with the increase in population. You can thank the AMA for that.

Can we all agree that this is an issue that needs to be addressed?

 

[Vox]

Why won't Obamacare and other forms of socialized medicine work here in the US? Those models are working so well in quasi-socialist wonderlands like Sweden.

The simple answer: We don't have enough doctors.

Lets compare the facts. Source

The US has 2.4 doctors for every 1,000 patients compared to Sweden's 3.8, Norway's 4.2, Austria's 4.9 and Greece's 6.2.

That's also the reason why healthcare in the united states is so expensive. We're extremely undermanned in the medical field. There's a large demand for doctors but the supply simply isn't there. Supply & demand.

I've also heard people say that there are 45 million uninsured Americans. Assuming that figure is accurate, what will happen if an additional 45 million people were insured and subsequently went to seek medical attention from an already limited pool of doctors?

It's also commonly known that the healthcare systems in socialist countries often suffer from long wait times due to a large amount of people seeking the same service simultaneously, what would happen here with sometimes up to 3 times less doctors as they do?

So before we try to implement a healthcare system like Obamacare that will "insure everyone" or a socialized system like they have in Sweden, we need to address the issue of not enough doctors.

How do we do that?

We can start by having the American Medical Association (quasi-union) stop artificially limiting the number of medical schools which artificially raises the cost of tuition, limits the number of students and consequently limits the amount of licensed doctors.

Over the last 100 years the number of medical schools has dropped by 22%, even with the increase in population. You can thank the AMA for that.

won't change shit.

if you have to spend at least 12 years in training and start working with a half-million debt - with no prospect of repaying it ( the physician's income has dropped in the current system, in socialized it would be the nursing level) - you won't have idiots willing to be enslaved for nothing.

You want more doctors? you have to change the way the medical education is acquired.
and payed.

One I can say for sure - socialized medicine is going to lower the standard of care substantially.
Leftards are not going to tell you that.
You want it as in the UK - you going to get it - but forget the level of medical care you have NOW.
And it is the best in the world.
For now.
Swiss can be compared, but Swiss is NOT a socialized medicine.
Everything else is not even close.

 

[tooAlive]

One I can say for sure - socialized medicine is going to lower the standard of care substantially.
Leftards are not going to tell you that.
You want it as in the UK - you going to get it - but forget the level of medical care you have NOW.
And it is the best in the world.
For now.

Understandably so.

All I'm saying is that if we made it easier for people to become doctors, medical care would automatically become more affordable in our current system.

If the AMA didn't limit the number of medical schools those sky-high tuition costs you mentioned would also be significantly lower. So that's one thing we can do to make things better and not compromise the quality of our healthcare.

 

[Vox]

One I can say for sure - socialized medicine is going to lower the standard of care substantially.
Leftards are not going to tell you that.
You want it as in the UK - you going to get it - but forget the level of medical care you have NOW.
And it is the best in the world.
For now.

Understandably so.

All I'm saying is that if we made it easier for people to become doctors, medical care would automatically become more affordable in our current system.

If the AMA didn't limit the number of medical schools those sky-high tuition costs you mentioned would also be significantly lower. So that's one thing we can do to make things better and not compromise the quality of our healthcare.

nursing care is more affordable, too. and that is what the obamacare and any socialized medicine is aimed at.
our medical care is so good only because it has incentive to be such.
making it socialized takes incentive away and lowers the standards of care to the minus points.
AMA has nothing to do with the shortage of doctors, BTW.

It is the Medicare/medicaid or the government which limits the number of doctors.
Number of medical students is irrelevant( one can get the education anywhere in the world and it is happening) - number of RESIDENCY positions is not.
And the number of residency slots is strictly regulated by the government.

 

[Liberal]

America does not currently have a better standard of care compared to the rest of the world.

Yet as of 2003 we have been spending more out of pocket then the next 4 countries combined and we spend more out of tax dollars than the next 6 countries combined.

So we are paying more tax dollars per person than a country that actually has SOCIALIZED medicine and we have nothing to show for it.

"Quality of care" is not going to go down, just maybe the number of 1 ton maple burl boardroom tables and 3 story indoor waterfalls.

 

[francoHFW]

It'll work, just like insurer based systems in Holland and Switzerland. It'll be tinkered with forever, and hopefully they'll decide more doctors are need. That would be Dems doing that, as long as the new bs GOP is against any kind of intelligent investment in the country...Maybe more doctors interested in the care rather than the money will come...

 

[ClosedCaption]

Socialized Medicine?

 

[g5000]

Why won't Obamacare and other forms of socialized medicine work here in the US? Those models are working so well in quasi-socialist wonderlands like Sweden.

The simple answer: We don't have enough doctors.

Lets compare the facts. Source

The US has 2.4 doctors for every 1,000 patients compared to Sweden's 3.8, Norway's 4.2, Austria's 4.9 and Greece's 6.2.

That's also the reason why healthcare in the united states is so expensive. We're extremely undermanned in the medical field. There's a large demand for doctors but the supply simply isn't there. Supply & demand.

I've also heard people say that there are 45 million uninsured Americans. Assuming that figure is accurate, what will happen if an additional 45 million people were insured and subsequently went to seek medical attention from an already limited pool of doctors?

It's also commonly known that the healthcare systems in socialist countries often suffer from long wait times due to a large amount of people seeking the same service simultaneously, what would happen here with sometimes up to 3 times less doctors as they do?

So before we try to implement a healthcare system like Obamacare that will "insure everyone" or a socialized system like they have in Sweden, we need to address the issue of not enough doctors.

How do we do that?

We can start by having the American Medical Association (quasi-union) stop artificially limiting the number of medical schools which artificially raises the cost of tuition, limits the number of students and consequently limits the amount of licensed doctors.

Over the last 100 years the number of medical schools has dropped by 22%, even with the increase in population. You can thank the AMA for that.

Can we all agree that this is an issue that needs to be addressed?

While it would be nice if we had more doctors, to state this is the primary reason socialized medicine would fail here is a Single Cause Fallacy.

This is a multi-faceted problem requiring several bullets, not a silver one.

A part of any solution is going to have to be the raising of the retirement age. We are living decades longer than our ancestors and it is outrageous we are retiring at the same age they did. This means we are unproductive and not contributing to the national treasury for decades longer than our ancestors. It's ridiculous.

We are living longer, we should be working longer. Common sense.

A shortage of doctors is not why medical care is so expensive. It is expensive because we have the most innovative and best medical system in the world. It is also expensive because the government is in the medical care business and gets to write the rules for its competitors, and hamstrings them to give itself the advantage. The government needs to either get all the way out of the healthcare business (which I prefer) or all in. This incremental shit is death by a thousand cuts.

It is also expensive because of employer-sponsored health insurance. This boondoggle needs to be eliminated. We should be buying our health insurance the same way we buy our auto, home, and life insurance.

More doctors, and certainly more nurses and PAs, would also have to be a part of the solution.

 

[nicolondon]

I'd advise people to go and read about the French system which is well regarded. It's far better than the NHS in the UK and your system in the USA.

They also spend far less than the USA in terms of GDP and with a much better outcome.Of course the problem with it is that the payment is taken out of your salary, its not classed as a tax but a health insurance.

It's not socialized in that sense, the government just regulates minimum standards, buys equipment which makes it cheaper and you have total freedom in terms of doctor etc.

 

[Vox]

America does not currently have a better standard of care compared to the rest of the world.

Yet as of 2003 we have been spending more out of pocket then the next 4 countries combined and we spend more out of tax dollars than the next 6 countries combined.

So we are paying more tax dollars per person than a country that actually has SOCIALIZED medicine and we have nothing to show for it.

"Quality of care" is not going to go down, just maybe the number of 1 ton maple burl boardroom tables and 3 story indoor waterfalls.

Yes, it does.

and much better results.

if one considers REAL frontiers of the medicine, not the backdoor of free vaccinations( which is "free" in the US as well)

 

[Vox]

I'd advise people to go and read about the French system which is well regarded. It's far better than the NHS in the UK and your system in the USA.

They also spend far less than the USA in terms of GDP and with a much better outcome.Of course the problem with it is that the payment is taken out of your salary, its not classed as a tax but a health insurance.

It's not socialized in that sense, the government just regulates minimum standards, buys equipment which makes it cheaper and you have total freedom in terms of doctor etc.

key words here.

swiss system is even better.

but none of those can be even thought about before EMTALA and tort reform - nowhere in Europe anything of the stupidity of those two aspects is even close to American one.

The best way to fund the universal healthcare ( by minimal standards) is through federal sales tax - only then it will be FAIR and never ending.

But as I have said before - it can not be enacted if EMTALA is not changed and without tort reform.

 

[HenryBHough]

The shortage of doctors is real but it's easily dealt with.

1. Coming soon, age-limits on treatment. Get sick and die. Therefore fewer deeded.

2. Mandatory aptitude tests at eighth grade levels. Show an aptitude for medicine and be put on a fast-track for government mandated medical training. Of course no passports will be issued for anyone "voluntarily" enrolled in the "program". Think that can't happen? Then why has the Obama regime not disbanded the no-longer-needed Selective Service (Draft) Boards?

 

[Liberal]

America does not currently have a better standard of care compared to the rest of the world.

Yet as of 2003 we have been spending more out of pocket then the next 4 countries combined and we spend more out of tax dollars than the next 6 countries combined.

So we are paying more tax dollars per person than a country that actually has SOCIALIZED medicine and we have nothing to show for it.

"Quality of care" is not going to go down, just maybe the number of 1 ton maple burl boardroom tables and 3 story indoor waterfalls.

Yes, it does.

and much better results.

if one considers REAL frontiers of the medicine, not the backdoor of free vaccinations( which is "free" in the US as well)

Much better results? We are 33rd in life expectancy in the world, yet we pay more out of pocket and taxes than any other developed country.

What fucking planet do you live on?

 

[nicolondon]

And heres a no bullshit view of our NHS in the UK. I don't follow some mantra that our system is great because its not, theres been some shocking recent stories of ill treatment or non-treatment mainly of the elderly.

So here are the facts here in the UK, we pay about 7percent less overall in terms of GDP for healthcare compared to the USA, you won't die in the UK because of having no healthcare, or become bankrupt but overall standards between hospitals vary widely, there are too many managers and people sitting on their arse staring at a computer screen.

In an emergency you're fine but things like for example waiting for a hip replacement etc can have you waiting several months. There is no perfect system, the NHS is passable, you can have a great experience or be unlucky and end up in a crappy hospital.

There are no death panels or such nonsense banded about by the media, there aren't enough staff and the problems here are the same as in the USA, an ageing population putting a lot more demands on the system. Personally I've always had good experiences with the NHS but its just a bit hit and miss at times.

I applaud Obama for at least trying to do something, I think he had the best of intentions but you can never have a perfect system it just doesn't exist.

 

[g5000]

I'd advise people to go and read about the French system which is well regarded. It's far better than the NHS in the UK and your system in the USA.

They also spend far less than the USA in terms of GDP and with a much better outcome.Of course the problem with it is that the payment is taken out of your salary, its not classed as a tax but a health insurance.

It's not socialized in that sense, the government just regulates minimum standards, buys equipment which makes it cheaper and you have total freedom in terms of doctor etc.

I don't know if you have noticed, but France is teetering on the edge of default. They are in the midst of a serious debt crisis. It is the next domino after Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, and Italy.

So much for social spending like a sailor in a whorehouse, eh?

 

[HenryBHough]

I don't know if you have noticed, but France is teetering on the edge of default. They are in the midst of a serious debt crisis. It is the next domino after Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, and Italy.

So much for social spending like a sailor in a whorehouse, eh?

Don't judge harshly....French people LOVE failure and default. With a badge like that their regime is assured lifetime tenure.

 

[nicolondon]

I'd advise people to go and read about the French system which is well regarded. It's far better than the NHS in the UK and your system in the USA.

They also spend far less than the USA in terms of GDP and with a much better outcome.Of course the problem with it is that the payment is taken out of your salary, its not classed as a tax but a health insurance.

It's not socialized in that sense, the government just regulates minimum standards, buys equipment which makes it cheaper and you have total freedom in terms of doctor etc.

key words here.

swiss system is even better.

but none of those can be even thought about before EMTALA and tort reform - nowhere in Europe anything of the stupidity of those two aspects is even close to American one.

The best way to fund the universal healthcare ( by minimal standards) is through federal sales tax - only then it will be FAIR and never ending.

But as I have said before - it can not be enacted if EMTALA is not changed and without tort reform.

Thanks for the reply, could you possibly explain what EMTALA is and Tort reform I'm not aware of these and why do they cause such problems for Americans?

 

[ron4342]

America does not currently have a better standard of care compared to the rest of the world.

Yet as of 2003 we have been spending more out of pocket then the next 4 countries combined and we spend more out of tax dollars than the next 6 countries combined.

So we are paying more tax dollars per person than a country that actually has SOCIALIZED medicine and we have nothing to show for it.

"Quality of care" is not going to go down, just maybe the number of 1 ton maple burl boardroom tables and 3 story indoor waterfalls.

Yes, it does.

and much better results.

if one considers REAL frontiers of the medicine, not the backdoor of free vaccinations( which is "free" in the US as well)

You could live across the street from the best doctor in the world but if you cannot afford to pay for their services they might as well be on the back side of the moon. To a person working two jobs and barely covering the cost of food and housing that doctor is completely out of reach for them. Where is your best medical system in the world then?

 

[regent]

If the problem is a shortage of doctors and private enterprise cannot fix the problem that's the kind of thing that invites government participation.
As America needs a West Point and other schools to teach people how to kill why not a school to teach people how to cure and treat? Can America can use a good medical school to teach all the facets of medicine, with labs etc, not to compete with other schools but to supplement them. Perhaps we need to make medicine more of a help thing than just a thing to make money?

 

[tooAlive]

If the problem is a shortage of doctors and private enterprise cannot fix the problem that's the kind of thing that invites government participation.
As America needs a West Point and other schools to teach people how to kill why not a school to teach people how to cure and treat? Can America can use a good medical school to teach all the facets of medicine, with labs etc, not to compete with other schools but to supplement them. Perhaps we need to make medicine more of a help thing than just a thing to make money?

This problem is that you have the American Medical Association keeping the number of medical schools artificially low.

The number of medical schools today is actually lower than it was 100 years ago -- even with the growth of the population.

The AMA is like a labour union for doctors and it's in their best interest to keep schools low. Less schools = harder to get in = less doctors = more money to be made.