Will White Privilege End Affirmative Action?

[Lisa558]

I see a big difference between excuses and reasons. A student may make up an excuse for not having done homework - "My dog ate it." But if his mom suddenly took ill and they had to rush her to the hospital, that would be a legitimate reason for homework not being done. I believe throughout our U.S. history white folks have made up many excuses for their treatment of Native Americans, blacks and other minorities. Having to live and work within a discriminatory system is a reason, not an excuse.

You are talking about historically.

Since the 1970s, white students are the ones who are living within a discriminatory system, and it is unfair to make two generations of white teenagers pay the price for what other white people, generations removed, did to blacks and Native Americans.

I worked in higher ed admissions, for a prestigious and competitive program, and the discrepancy between the scores and grades of blacks who were admitted and whites who were rejected was SIGNIFICANT. The black students admitted under the “black standards” (it was estimated that 2 out of 3 black kids would have been rejected if standards were applied equally, and 1 out of 3 black kids would have been accepted under his own merit) struggled throughout the years there, and tutors had to work with them consistently to help them keep up with their more qualified peers.

Schools struggle to justify their “social justice” endeavor, and that is why they came up with the concept of holistic admissions, devising questions that they could score blacks higher on. The most recent and striking example of this is the “personality test,” in which they clobbered the Asians.

The damage here is twofold:

1) obviously, it is damaging to the higher-achieving white and Asian students who were rejected to make room for the lower-achieving black students.

2) it is also damaging to the one out of three black students who would have been accepted anyway, based solely on merit. Employers know that most blacks are admitted into these programs for which they would not qualify if they were white, and thus the blacks who truly were “on par” with the white students are given short shift and unfairly judged to have been admitted under the lesser standards.

(I don’t recall you and I conversing before, but I have suggested a more equitable AA system. I will address it on the next post.)

 

[Lisa558]

A more equitable alternative to the racist (anything that uses skin color to influence decisions is racist) AA policies is one that combines academic achievements with SES of the family. Since it is said that blacks are, on average, poorer than whites due to historical racism, they - the poorer blacks - would still benefit from this new AA policy:

We should admit the top 5% in each high school to the state university, free of charge, as long as their families have a HHI of less than $100,000. (We continue to “drop down” until we capture 5%, given the SES requirement.)

The beauty in this is that poorer students, black or white, who have exceeded academically, get admitted to college, tuition-free. It answers the problem of inner-city blacks in poor, inferior schools who have to compete with affluent white kids for admission, since they would compete within their own cohort. At the same time, it awards the poor white kid, who despite his family’s financial limitations, scored among the top in his middle-class school, competing against black and white kids both, whose parents paid for special after-school tutoring while the poor white kid had to work a part-time job.

 

[JoeB131]

You are talking about historically.

Since the 1970s, white students are the ones who are living within a discriminatory system, and it is unfair to make two generations of white teenagers pay the price for what other white people, generations removed, did to blacks and Native Americans.

Because, dummy, those white teens gained the benefits of what those previous generations of awful white people did to blacks and Native Americans.

I've been working for the last 30 years since I left the Army. You know what, nearly every person who hired me was a fellow white male. I think one or two were white women. The best boss I ever had was a lesbian.

In that time, I've seen one black woman who was given a job she didn't merit due to AA. I've seen a lot of white people given advancement because of nepotism or the good old boy network or because the bitch was sleeping with the boss. (That last one was the worst.)

Check. Your. Privilege.

I worked in higher ed admissions, for a prestigious and competitive program, and the discrepancy between the scores and grades of blacks who were admitted and whites who were rejected was SIGNIFICANT. The black students admitted under the “black standards” (it was estimated that 2 out of 3 black kids would have been rejected if standards were applied equally, and 1 out of 3 black kids would have been accepted under his own merit) struggled throughout the years there, and tutors had to work with them consistently to help them keep up with their more qualified peers.

Well, it's kind of sad that someone as bigoted and racist as you works in Higher Ed Admissions, which might be a large part of the problem.

The real problem is that we have 'prestigious" programs and schools that perpetuate white privilege. Why is it we decide a bachelor's from Harvard is so much better than a bachelor's from UIC, or a bachelor's from The University of Phoenix?

If we are going to award privilege to association with these institutions, then you should do whatever you have to do to make sure that privilege is distributed equally.

Or we can do something as breathtakingly rational as saying, "I don't care what school you graduated from, I'm judging you purely on your results!"

Because, honestly, looking at the last 40 years of American Politics and Business where the scions of these elite schools have just led us from one policy disaster to another, maybe it's better to put the working class kids from State universities in charge. (And yes, I blame BOTH parties for this. The only difference between the Dems and Republicans is the Republicans replace the Ph.D.s and J.D.'s with MBA's.)

Schools struggle to justify their “social justice” endeavor, ans that is why they came up with the concept of holistic admissions, devising questions that they could score blacks higher on. The most recent and striking example of this is the “personality test,” in which they clobbered the Asians.

Still waiting for you to prove that this test exists. I mean, at least you aren't still trying to claim that Asians are "unattractive".

The damage here is twofold:

1) obviously, it is damaging to the higher-achieving white and Asian students who were rejected to make room for the lower-achieving black students.

So what? "But Mommy, I didn't get into Harvard, so I had to settle for UIC!" Um, okay. UIC isn't that bad, and if you work hard.

Here's the thing about my beloved Alma Mater.. It was originally established in the 1960's to be the Urban campus for the inner city kids.

Today, black enrollment at UIC is 8% in a city that is 35% black.

2) it is also damaging to the one out of three black students who would have been accepted anyway, based solely on merit. Employers know that most blacks are admitted into these programs they would not for which they would not qualify if they were white, and thus the blacks who truly were “on par” with the white students are given short shift and unfairly judged to have been admitted under the lesser standards.

So your argument is that because the white people who run the C-Suites in most companies are racist like you are, that is the fault of black people?

So do you go down to the Rape Crisis Center and tell those sluts they were wearing short dresses and it was their own damned fault?

(I don’t recall you and I conversing before, but I have suggested a more equitable AA system. I will address it on the next post.)

Oh, please don't. Here's the more equitable program. Quit your job, so that your obnoxious bigotry isn't ruining the lives of young black people who are working hard to better themselves.

 

[Blues Man]

Sooner or later affirmative action has to end.

 

[JoeB131]

A more equitable alternative to the racist (anything that uses skin color to influence decisions is racist) AA policies is one that combines academic achievements with SES of the family. Since it is said that blacks are, on average, poorer than whites due to historical racism, they - the poorer blacks - would still benefit from this new AA policy:

We should admit the top 5% in each high school to the state university, free of charge, as long as their families have a HHI of less than $100,000. (We continue to “drop down” until we capture 5%, given the SES requirement.)

The beauty in this is that poorer students, black or white, who have exceeded academically, get admitted to college, tuition-free. It answers the problem of inner-city blacks in poor, inferior schools who have to compete with affluent white kids for admission, since they would compete within their own cohort. At the same time, it awards the poor white kid, who despite his family’s financial limitations, scored among the top in his middle-class school, competing against black and white kids both, whose parents paid for special after-school tutoring while the poor white kid had to work a part-time job.

Isn't that kind of like rewarding failure.

If a white person devolved down into what we lovingly refer to as "White Trash", despite all the obscene advantages of being white in this society, why should we reward it?

Conversely, why should we put more obstacles in the way of people of color who have succeeded despite the institutionalized racism in this country.

I would agree that the inequities of our educational system SHOULD be addressed before the college level. That would mean inner city schools should get the same funding as Suburban schools.

 

[JoeB131]

Sooner or later affirmative action has to end.

Absolutely. It should end as soon as full racial equality is achieved.

 

[Blues Man]

Absolutely. It should end as soon as full racial equality is achieved.

And how do you define that naive goal?

 

[Turtlesoup]

Because, dummy, those white teens gained the benefits of what those previous generations of awful white people did to blacks and Native Americans.

I've been working for the last 30 years since I left the Army. You know what, nearly every person who hired me was a fellow white male. I think one or two were white women. The best boss I ever had was a lesbian.

In that time, I've seen one black woman who was given a job she didn't merit due to AA. I've seen a lot of white people given advancement because of nepotism or the good old boy network or because the bitch was sleeping with the boss. (That last one was the worst.)

Check. Your. Privilege.



Well, it's kind of sad that someone as bigoted and racist as you works in Higher Ed Admissions, which might be a large part of the problem.

The real problem is that we have 'prestigious" programs and schools that perpetuate white privilege. Why is it we decide a bachelor's from Harvard is so much better than a bachelor's from UIC, or a bachelor's from The University of Phoenix?

If we are going to award privilege to association with these institutions, then you should do whatever you have to do to make sure that privilege is distributed equally.

Or we can do something as breathtakingly rational as saying, "I don't care what school you graduated from, I'm judging you purely on your results!"

Because, honestly, looking at the last 40 years of American Politics and Business where the scions of these elite schools have just led us from one policy disaster to another, maybe it's better to put the working class kids from State universities in charge. (And yes, I blame BOTH parties for this. The only difference between the Dems and Republicans is the Republicans replace the Ph.D.s and J.D.'s with MBA's.)



Still waiting for you to prove that this test exists. I mean, at least you aren't still trying to claim that Asians are "unattractive".



So what? "But Mommy, I didn't get into Harvard, so I had to settle for UIC!" Um, okay. UIC isn't that bad, and if you work hard.

Here's the thing about my beloved Alma Mater.. It was originally established in the 1960's to be the Urban campus for the inner city kids.

Today, black enrollment at UIC is 8% in a city that is 35% black.



So your argument is that because the white people who run the C-Suites in most companies are racist like you are, that is the fault of black people?

So do you go down to the Rape Crisis Center and tell those sluts they were wearing short dresses and it was their own damned fault?



Oh, please don't. Here's the more equitable program. Quit your job, so that your obnoxious bigotry isn't ruining the lives of young black people who are working hard to better themselves.

Check your priviledge---WTF are you babbling about?

Blacks are given affirmative action and are giving EXTRA POINTs just for being black in most all corporations, fed jobs and fed contractors including the postal service and military. Then there is college and government and private paid for the poor wittle blacks that discriminates against everyone else.

Check you fucking priviledge you whinny baby.

Most whites grow up poor idiot-----many still work their ways up despite their bad starts in life.

Want to help blacks---get rid of welfare and start treating blacks equally to everyone else. Work instead of welfare ........no more special privileges for blacks failing. No more rewarding the worst, the most violent, and the most ignorant with a government check for pushing out kids that they don't take care of.

 

[Lisa558]

Because, dummy, those white teens gained the benefits of what those previous generations of awful white people did to blacks and Native Americans.

I've been working for the last 30 years since I left the Army. You know what, nearly every person who hired me was a fellow white male. I think one or two were white women. The best boss I ever had was a lesbian.

In that time, I've seen one black woman who was given a job she didn't merit due to AA. I've seen a lot of white people given advancement because of nepotism or the good old boy network or because the bitch was sleeping with the boss. (That last one was the worst.)

Check. Your. Privilege.

I should have stopped reading when you called me “dummy,“ but I couldn’t resist. Not ALL white teens living today gained, nor have all black teens living today lost. That is just the bigoted thinking of a leftist. There are plenty of middle-clsss blacks getting in over poorer whites, despite the fact the latter had far superior grades and scores.

Well, it's kind of sad that someone as bigoted and racist as you works in Higher Ed Admissions, which might be a large part of the problem.

Being opposed to a policy that uses skin color to justify admissions is the very opposite of being bigoted. Only do liberal bigots such as yourself yell “raaaaacist” when someone suggests we revamp a race-bases policy to be more equitable across the board, and one which ignores race.
.

The real problem is that we have 'prestigious" programs and schools that perpetuate white privilege. Why is it we decide a bachelor's from Harvard is so much better than a bachelor's from UIC, or a bachelor's from The University of Phoenix?

Too bad. Why is it so necessary for a black kid who does not qualify for Harvard to go there, rather than join his academic peers, black and white, at Boston College, of Wheaton College, or wherever, where he can keep up with the program without having need for tutors? Your jump down to the University of Phoenix is ridiculous, unless you are claiming that if a black kid is rejected from Harvard, he is so awful that he couldn’t be accepted at ANY college in the country?

If we are going to award privilege to association with these institutions, then you should do whatever you have to do to make sure that privilege is distributed equally.

Or we can do something as breathtakingly rational as saying, "I don't care what school you graduated from, I'm judging you purely on your results!"

Because, honestly, looking at the last 40 years of American Politics and Business where the scions of these elite schools have just led us from one policy disaster to another, maybe it's better to put the working class kids from State universities in charge. (And yes, I blame BOTH parties for this. The only difference between the Dems and Republicans is the Republicans replace the Ph.D.s and J.D.'s with MBA's.)



Still waiting for you to prove that this test exists. I mean, at least you aren't still trying to claim that Asians are "unattractive".

Please don’t tell me that you haven’t heard how Harvard devised subjective measures such as having an attractive personality to justify rejecting higher-scoring Asians to make room for lower-scoring blacks! Don’t the liberal media you follow report the truth at all??

So what? "But Mommy, I didn't get into Harvard, so I had to settle for UIC!" Um, okay. UIC isn't that bad, and if you work hard.

Here's the thing about my beloved Alma Mater.. It was originally established in the 1960's to be the Urban campus for the inner city kids.

Today, black enrollment at UIC is 8% in a city that is 35% black.



So your argument is that because the white people who run the C-Suites in most companies are racist like you are, that is the fault of black people?

OK, now you’re with the “you’re racist” shit again, and I’m going to stop. When you arrogant, holier-than-thou leftists learn to debate an issue without screeching “you’re RAAAAACIST,!” then perhaps you will deserve my continued attention. Adios.

So do you go down to the Rape Crisis Center and tell those sluts they were wearing short dresses and it was their own damned fault?



Oh, please don't. Here's the more equitable program. Quit your job, so that your obnoxious bigotry isn't ruining the lives of young black people who are working hard to better themselves.

 

[Lisa558]

Check your priviledge---WTF are you babbling about?

Blacks are given affirmative action and are giving EXTRA POINTs just for being black in most all corporations, fed jobs and fed contractors including the postal service and military. Then there is college and government and private paid for the poor wittle blacks that discriminates against everyone else.

Check you fucking priviledge you whinny baby.

Most whites grow up poor idiot-----many still work their ways up despite their bad starts in life.

Want to help blacks---get rid of welfare and start treating blacks equally to everyone else. Work instead of welfare ........no more special privileges for blacks failing. No more rewarding the worst, the most violent, and the most ignorant with a government check for pushing out kids that they don't take care of.

Thank you! That Joe poster is the very epitome of a leftist who supports racist policies while yelling “raaacist” at anyone who puts forth an idea for a policy that is race-blind. IOW, leftists view anyone who doesn’t go along with racist policies to give unfair advantages to blacks as racist, when the opposite is true.

The AA policy I suggested, giving priority to bright and high-achieving students frim modest families, regardless of race, is one that does not favor one skin color over another but still would end up benefiting blacks from poor, inner-city schools. But that’s not enough for these leftists: they want to make sure Tanika from suburbia, whose middle-class parents pay for special tutoring, gets in over Billy, whose poor parents not only can’t afford tutoring but need Billy to work a part-time job to help the family finances, even though her grades and scores are lower than Billy’s.

 

[JoeB131]

I should have stopped reading when you called me “dummy,“ but I couldn’t resist. Not ALL white teens living today gained, nor have all black teens living today lost. That is just the bigoted thinking of a leftist. There are plenty of middle-clsss blacks getting in over poorer whites, despite the fact the latter had far superior grades and scores.

Uh, sorry, in the aggregate, even the poorest piece of white trash from Jesusland has an advantage over a black kid from the burbs.

Being opposed to a policy that uses skin color to justify admissions is the very opposite of being bigoted. Only do liberal bigots such as yourself yell “raaaaacist” when someone suggests we revamp a race-bases policy to be more equitable across the board, and one which ignores race.

Uh, yeah, I've seen you whine here every day about Hispanics and Blacks on subjects other than education... so no wash.

Too bad. Why is it so necessary for a black kid who does not qualify for Harvard to go there, rather than join his academic peers, black and white, at Boston College, of Wheaton College, or wherever, where he can keep up with the program without having need for tutors? Your jump down to the University of Phoenix is ridiculous, unless you are claiming that if a black kid is rejected from Harvard, he is so awful that he couldn’t be accepted at ANY college in the country?

Again, why shouldn't he get a chance, the same chance an underacheiving legacy like Geo. Dubya got.

Please don’t tell me that you haven’t heard how Harvard devised subjective measures such as having an attractive personality to justify rejecting higher-scoring Asians to make room for lower-scoring blacks! Don’t the liberal media you follow report the truth at all??

Uh, well, you have several chances to set me straight, and then I'll find something that proves this is some racist nonsense from the Right Wing Press... so that should be interesting... for a second.

Probably because it's bullshit like American Renascences or some website like that.

Here's the problem with siding with the racists, honey... When they are done with the blacks and Hispanics, eventually, they get to the Jews.

OK, now you’re with the “you’re racist” shit again, and I’m going to stop. When you arrogant, holier-than-thou leftists learn to debate an issue without screeching “you’re RAAAAACIST,!” then perhaps you will deserve my continued attention. Adios.

Well, stop being racist, and I'll stop pointing it out.

Thank you! That Joe poster is the very epitome of a leftist who supports racist policies while yelling “raaacist” at anyone who puts forth an idea for a policy that is race-blind. IOW, leftists view anyone who doesn’t go along with racist policies to give unfair advantages to blacks as racist, when the opposite is true.

You know, back when I was a dumb college Republican, I remember having these kinds of discussions with black students.. and one of them said, "Would you want to change places?" And clearly, I wouldn't, and neither would you. This society gives obscene advantages for low melanin levels.

 

[JoeB131]

The AA policy I suggested, giving priority to bright and high-achieving students frim modest families, regardless of race, is one that does not favor one skin color over another but still would end up benefiting blacks from poor, inner-city schools. But that’s not enough for these leftists: they want to make sure Tanika from suburbia, whose middle-class parents pay for special tutoring, gets in over Billy, whose poor parents not only can’t afford tutoring but need Billy to work a part-time job to help the family finances, even though her grades and scores are lower than Billy’s.

Why not? Billy has had the advantage of 400 years of white privilege, and his parents still managed to fuck it up. Tanika's parents had to work hard to get to that suburb, and her grandparents had to face water hoses and German Shepherds to get them that far.

Here's the thing. We have given the Harvards and the Yales of the world a special place, in terms of government, business, and academia. So yes, Tanika should get Harvard because she belongs to a group that needs more representation in our elite echelons. And Billy can be happy going to UIC, where he'll get a serviceable degree and access to the middle class. That seems reasonable and fair.

Until we get to the point where we stop treating a piece of paper like it's a fucking stone tablet inscribed by God.

 

[JoeB131]

All the dummies are out today... I guess the Cross Burning Broke up Early.

Check your priviledge---WTF are you babbling about?

Blacks are given affirmative action and are giving EXTRA POINTs just for being black in most all corporations, fed jobs and fed contractors including the postal service and military. Then there is college and government and private paid for the poor wittle blacks that discriminates against everyone else.

Check you fucking priviledge you whinny baby.

I'd be more amused if you could actually SPELL privilege, much less understood the concept.

As I have stated, Every job I have had since I left the army in 1992, the decision to hire me has been made by a white person, usually a white male. The only time in my life a person of color was instrumental in getting me a job was when an Asian American female I helped early in her career gave me a recommendation when we were both a lot further along. And it was still white dudes making the call.

Now, while I think there is STILL a lot of racism in the C-Suites and HR offices, some of it is a LOT more subtle. We tend to favor people who remind of us of ourselves. We see the physical ideal of beauty or handsomeness as white people. So without AA, HR people would just pick other white people.

In fact, the biggest beneficiaries of Affirmative Action have been... wait for it, White Women.

Most whites grow up poor idiot-----many still work their ways up despite their bad starts in life.

Want to help blacks---get rid of welfare and start treating blacks equally to everyone else. Work instead of welfare ........no more special privileges for blacks failing. No more rewarding the worst, the most violent, and the most ignorant with a government check for pushing out kids that they don't take care of.

See, here's more of the same.

The US spends less than 500 Billion a year on "Welfare" - poverty relief programs like Section 8, SNAP, TANF, WIC. And the majority of people on them are white.

The US Spends 2.5 TRILLION on "Middle Class Entitlements" - Social Security, Disability, Medicare, Veteran's Benefits, Unemployment Insurance. Programs designed specifically to keep middle class white people from becoming poor because they run afoul of this thing called "life".

 

[AZrailwhale]

All the dummies are out today... I guess the Cross Burning Broke up Early.



I'd be more amused if you could actually SPELL privilege, much less understood the concept.

As I have stated, Every job I have had since I left the army in 1992, the decision to hire me has been made by a white person, usually a white male. The only time in my life a person of color was instrumental in getting me a job was when an Asian American female I helped early in her career gave me a recommendation when we were both a lot further along. And it was still white dudes making the call.

Now, while I think there is STILL a lot of racism in the C-Suites and HR offices, some of it is a LOT more subtle. We tend to favor people who remind of us of ourselves. We see the physical ideal of beauty or handsomeness as white people. So without AA, HR people would just pick other white people.

In fact, the biggest beneficiaries of Affirmative Action have been... wait for it, White Women.






See, here's more of the same.

The US spends less than 500 Billion a year on "Welfare" - poverty relief programs like Section 8, SNAP, TANF, WIC. And the majority of people on them are white.

The US Spends 2.5 TRILLION on "Middle Class Entitlements" - Social Security, Disability, Medicare, Veteran's Benefits, Unemployment Insurance. Programs designed specifically to keep middle class white people from becoming poor because they run afoul of this thing called "life".

All of what you are calling “ middle class entitlements” are earned. Don’t serve OUR country at the risk of your life, working long hours under poor conditions, and you don’t qualify for veteran’s benefits. Don’t work all your life and pay into social security and Medicare and you don’t get them. Don’t work and you don’t get unemployment insurance, or disability. Stop complaining about people getting what they earned.

you were, are and always will be an opinionated jackass.

 

[LOIE]

A more equitable alternative to the racist (anything that uses skin color to influence decisions is racist) AA policies is one that combines academic achievements with SES of the family. Since it is said that blacks are, on average, poorer than whites due to historical racism, they - the poorer blacks - would still benefit from this new AA policy:

We should admit the top 5% in each high school to the state university, free of charge, as long as their families have a HHI of less than $100,000. (We continue to “drop down” until we capture 5%, given the SES requirement.)

The beauty in this is that poorer students, black or white, who have exceeded academically, get admitted to college, tuition-free. It answers the problem of inner-city blacks in poor, inferior schools who have to compete with affluent white kids for admission, since they would compete within their own cohort. At the same time, it awards the poor white kid, who despite his family’s financial limitations, scored among the top in his middle-class school, competing against black and white kids both, whose parents paid for special after-school tutoring while the poor white kid had to work a part-time job.

I don't have a lot of knowledge about this subject and I'd need to do some research, but I wonder if you know what the original intent of Affirmative Action was and do you think it has accomplished what it was intended to accomplish?

 

[JoeB131]

All of what you are calling “ middle class entitlements” are earned. Don’t serve OUR country at the risk of your life, working long hours under poor conditions, and you don’t qualify for veteran’s benefits. Don’t work all your life and pay into social security and Medicare and you don’t get them. Don’t work and you don’t get unemployment insurance, or disability. Stop complaining about people getting what they earned.

you were, are and always will be an opinionated jackass.

Okay, let's look at that.

Why should the guy who spent a tour sitting behind a desk filing paperwork (which pretty much describes my military career) get the same bennies as the guy who went to war and got shot at and got PTSD?

Why should the slacker who worked minimum wage jobs get the same Social Security payments (mostly) as the skilled tradesman.

If you want to talk about a real inequity, we can get to medicare. You actually get more money if you DIDN'T take care of yourself.

Our system is "Welfare for me, but not for thee".

Most people who collect welfare when they hit a rough patch are only on it for a few years. But someone who retires at 62 and lives to be 78 can get it for 16 years.

We have just enough socialism to keep people from becoming poor and demanding actual socialism.

 

[LOIE]

You are talking about historically.

Since the 1970s, white students are the ones who are living within a discriminatory system, and it is unfair to make two generations of white teenagers pay the price for what other white people, generations removed, did to blacks and Native Americans.

My initial reaction to this is perhaps white students have to be told what black people have been told all their lives - that is to "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps," to "stop blaming others for your problems," to "work harder, don't be lazy," "suck it up," etc., etc. Maybe two generations of white kids paying for something that wasn't their fault can't be compared to many generations of discrimination against blacks, which also was not their fault. Lots of things in our history were unfair, but blacks have always been told that is not an excuse, so the same should apply to others. I also suppose that white teenagers, even poor ones, have a better support system and people watching out for them, fighting for them, giving them a second chance, than many blacks.

 

[Lisa558]

I don't have a lot of knowledge about this subject and I'd need to do some research, but I wonder if you know what the original intent of Affirmative Action was and do you think it has accomplished what it was intended to accomplish?

I’m glad you are acknowledging that you do not have the knowledge about this subject to debate fully.

The goal, when it began in the 70s, was not long after the abolishment of Jim Crow laws. It was designed to give blacks who had been held back by the racism of less than a decade earlier a ”hand up“ (even though it meant white students would pay the cost for that).

It has now been two generations. The parents, and the grandparents, of black kids today have enjoyed the benefit. And I see the result of that benefit in my area - lots of middle class and affluent blacks live in McMansions they bought, shop at stores I can’t afford, and eat at steakhouses also beyond my budget.

A small underclass of blacks - the thug types killing each other and looting stores, etc. - exist, and that cannot be blamed on lack of educational opportunities. Something else is at play in that sub-demographic, and it is the rate of OOW births. The correlation between that and low educational attainment is pronounced.

Summary: you cannot continue an anti-white (and increasingly anti-Asian) racist policy for generation after generation in order to “close the gap” between whites and blacks when blacks themselves are INCREASING the rate of a critical behavior that largely contributes to that gap.

 

[Lisa558]

My initial reaction to this is perhaps white students have to be told what black people have been told all their lives - that is to "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps," to "stop blaming others for your problems," to "work harder, don't be lazy," "suck it up," etc., etc. Maybe two generations of white kids paying for something that wasn't their fault can't be compared to many generations of discrimination against blacks, which also was not their fault. Lots of things in our history were unfair, but blacks have always been told that is not an excuse, so the same should apply to others. I also suppose that white teenagers, even poor ones, have a better support system and people watching out for them, fighting for them, giving them a second chance, than many blacks.

Also remember, my suggested approach would still give advantage to poorer blacks, who would compete within their own cohort.

And you say that you suppose poor white teens have a better support system, but that’s not true. Poor teens are in poor families for the same reason blacks teens are - a single, uneducated mother working night shifts at the diner (or whatever), and without the capacity or energy to “fight” for their kids.

It seems that you are trying to set up an argument against my very equitable proposal to change AA to one which is based on SES (along with academic success) rather than continue with a race-based policy. I would like to see all poor(er) kids, regardless of color, who were studious, disciplined, and bright enough to be among the top 5% of their class get a free ride to State U.

As an aside, there are other ways to formulate this. This “5% group” could also be granted the dollars equivalent to State U tuition to apply towards the tuition at any college in the country, to which they gain admittance.

 

[JoeB131]

I’m glad you are acknowledging that you do not have the knowledge about this subject to debate fully.

The goal, when it began in the 70s, was not long after the abolishment of Jim Crow laws. It was designed to give blacks who had been held back by the racism of less than a decade earlier a ”hand up“ (even though it meant white students would pay the cost for that).

It has now been two generations. The parents, and the grandparents, of black kids today have enjoyed the benefit. And I see the result of that benefit in my area - lots of middle class and affluent blacks live in McMansions they bought, shop at stores I can’t afford, and eat at steakhouses also beyond my budget.

So you are upset they are managing their money better than you manage yours?

A small underclass of blacks - the thug types killing each other and looting stores, etc. - exist, and that cannot be blamed on lack of educational opportunities. Something else is at play in that sub-demographic, and it is the rate of OOW births. The correlation between that and low educational attainment is pronounced.

OOW births have increased across the country. In fact 41% of babies are born out of wedlock. In France, that number is 59%, and they don't have the crime problems we have.

We have an inner city crime problem because the kinds of jobs that used to be there have been replaced by automation. No longer does the working class white or black have the opportunity to make a good salary working in a factory. A machine is doing that now, and if they want the good jobs, they need an education.

Summary: you cannot continue an anti-white (and increasingly anti-Asian) racist policy for generation after generation in order to “close the gap” between whites and blacks when blacks themselves are INCREASING the rate of a critical behavior that largely contributes to that gap.

Wow... Just wow. Again, do you go down to the rape crisis center and tell those girls they shouldn't have dressed like sluts?

First, if Asians are getting 26% of the slots at Harvard when they are only 3% of the population, Asians are doing fine.

Second, if you have Generations of white people going to elite schools and being given outsized influence in this country, for no other reason than they went to these elite schools, and you've been doing this for HUNDREDS of years, then it's kind of hard to argue against giving people of color a shot at these opportunities. Because these kinds of schools are just white privilege perpetuating itself.

So the black kids get to go to the elite schools, and the white kids (and some Asians) have to settle for State U. I'm just not seeing the problem here.