Yes Mr Desantis, the Palestinians are indigenous

[The Sage of Main Street]

We can't 'educate' ourselves out of our problems.

The best and brightest still have "the serpent within".

High IQs Are the Serpent's Prey

 

[Shusha]

"Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing on those territories, or parts of them."

"The word 'indigenous' refers to the notion of a place-based human ethnic culture that has not migrated from its homeland, and is not a settler or colonial population."

Indigeneity is not measured with DNA. It is a cultural designation.

 

[rylah]

"Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing on those territories, or parts of them."

"The word 'indigenous' refers to the notion of a place-based human ethnic culture that has not migrated from its homeland, and is not a settler or colonial population."

Indigeneity is not measured with DNA. It is a cultural designation.

Yeah, indeed, it's not called
the "Exodus of Israel"....

Because Jewish heritage itself,
is kinda the cultural preservation of
the cultural root cause of all those past civilizations.
"Eating nations" is more about cultural DNA than anything else.

 

[surada]

ActionJackson

Thought this might interest you.

 

[ActionJackson]

ActionJackson

Thought this might interest you.

I'm not seeing anything.

 

[ActionJackson]

Some will find this disturbing, but they have learned a lot from DNA and archaeology. Plus, they have tablets from the Ugarit in Ras Shamra. So they are brothers.

Yes, Mr. DeSantis, Palestinians are Indigenous, Descended from the Canaanites, and Palestinian Identity is not New

Ann Arbor (Informed Comment) - Here is Part 2 of my argument with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis concerning his uninformed and bigoted comments about Palestinians. Part I is here Who are the Palestinians? Nowadays, they are the Arabic-speaking inhabitants of the area stretching from the Jordan...

www.juancole.com

What we now call Palestinians are for the most part descendants of groups who have been in the Near East for four thousand years, at least.

A branch of the Canaanites became Jews, while others became Nabataeans and Phoenicians.

Rome conquered this region beginning in the first century BCE and then extended its holdings into Nabataea (106 AD), Syria and Lebanon. From the 300s the Roman state increasingly backed Christianity, so that most Levantines adopted that religion, though large numbers of Jews held out.

From the 630s the Near East began coming under Arab Muslim rule and over hundreds of years many people converted to Islam, including many Jews and Christians. So some of the ancestors of today’s Palestinians were themselves Jewish converts to Christianity or Islam.

“Palestine” as a term for a geographical unit and sometimes a regional identity appears in Arab Muslim sources. The “Jund Filastin” (Filastin is the Arabic transcription of Palestine) was a military district of Syria (Sham) in the Umayyad and Abbasid Empires. The chroniclers of later empires that ruled this area referred to it as “Filastin.” There were mints for coins there and the word occurs on some medieval coins.

The great Israeli historian Haim Gerber writes in his “Palestine” and Other Territorial Concepts in the 17th Century,” (IJMES 1998): “Little-used sources from the 17th and 18th centuries indicate some remarkable traces of awareness of territorial consciousness that deserve closer scrutiny. The main source in question is a two-volume fatwa (legal opinion) composed by the Palestinian Mufti Khayr al-Din al-Ramli (1585-1670), which on many occasions mentions the concepts Filastin, biladuna (our country), al-Sham (Syria), Misr (Egypt), and diyar (country), in senses that go far beyond “mere” objective.”

As for Jews, as far as geneticists can tell, around 800 CE a large male trading colony of Levantine Jews left the Abbasid Empire and crossed the Mediterranean to settle in Rome. That the Jewish diaspora derived from their expulsion by the Roman Empire after the Bar Kochba revolt is a myth.

There were lots of Jews in Roman Palestine. Of those who went to Europe for trade, some members eventually moved into what is now Poland, Ukraine and Russia. They tended to take local wives, who converted to Judaism when they married. These became the Ashkenazi Jews.

They typically have some Canaanite genetic heritage, though Ashkenazi women are genetically mostly gentiles, and mostly unrelated to one another.

The trick here, though, is that geneticists can only trace genealogy through the male y chromosome or though the female mitochondrial DNA. All the other genes split and join with new ones in every generation, so that nothing can be traced. So an Ashkenazi, European Jewish man is descended from all those gentile great-great grandmothers of the past, but they left no permanent trace in the way that the male line of Jewish descent did. And Ashkenazi women have a lot of heritage from their Jewish male ancestors that can no longer be detected.

While genetic history is working itself into various forms of nationalism, I wish it wouldn’t. For one thing, human beings just aren’t that different from one another, even if they carry distinctive haplotypes. Haplotypes are “a set of DNA variants along a single chromosome that tend to be inherited together.” But humans are always evolving and intermarrying, and haplotypes come and go. Some really old human DNA has yielded haplotypes that don’t seem even to exist any more. We all have diverse ancestries, most of which can no longer be traced.

But the reverse is also true. Naive nationalists misuse genealogical history to exclude and demonize. Some Jewish nationalists or Zionists seem to really mind the scientific finding that today’s Palestinians and other Levantine Arabs show strong genetic continuity with the Canaanites.

This dismay derives from the Canaanite city-states and small kingdoms having preceded Israel in history, such that they have a stronger claim on being indigenous. If Palestinians are the descendants of the Canaanites, do they have a superior claim on today’s Israel/Palestine?

Sure, if haplotypes were all that mattered. They aren’t. Human beings today have individual rights, incorporated into treaty law via UN instruments.

Palestinians and Israelis both have a Canaanite heritage. That is irrelevant to their present-day human rights. Both should have the right to basic human freedoms, to citizenship in a state, to their own property and livelihoods and to self-fulfilment. Both should be able to live free of violence. These basic rights matter more than from whom they are descended or where their ancestors used to live.

The Books if Ezra & Nehemiah chronicle the fact that when the tribes of Judah and Benjamin were released from Babylonian captivity and allowed to return to Jerusalem to rebuild that city that both Prophets were angry that the men of Judah had married non-Israelite wives who bore mixed children. So the pure line of Judah (original Jews) was diluted. It is likely that the wives were of Canaanite heritage.


As for DeSantis? We know where his allegiance lies:

 

[surada]

The Books if Ezra & Nehemiah chronicle the fact that when the tribes of Judah and Benjamin were released from Babylonian captivity and allowed to return to Jerusalem to rebuild that city that both Prophets were angry that the men of Judah had married non-Israelite wives who bore mixed children. So the pure line of Judah (original Jews) was diluted. It is likely that the wives were of Canaanite heritage.


As for DeSantis? We know where his allegiance lies:

Many men refused to abandon foreign wives and children so they left Palestine for Damascus, Aleppo, Alexandria etc.

 

[surada]

But you nor any Israeli Government calls themselves Canaanites.

As you admit in the article, the term Palestine is not a state at all.
Notice even the Arabs call GAZA a place for Arabs since they want to destroy the Jews, as well as the West Bank which it seems is less violent than those in Gaza.

As with things done in America , from time to time, this bs creates a nation that is not in existence and one shunned by most of the world.

I consider this a piss poor diversion from the attacks by the Arabs on the Jews forcing the Jews to defend themselves and stomp out the Hamas.

It been Syria Palestine since 500 BC. Palestine is a province of Syria. Didn't you ever read the old testament?

 

[surada]

Even the Bible proves Jews were indigenous to the land. And tell me, which came first? Soloman's Temple or the Al Aqsa Mosque? So lets see now --- who's land is it? Boy thats a tough one huh?

My God, you're dumb. David bought Jerusalem from a Jebusite.

 

[surada]

Some will find this disturbing, but they have learned a lot from DNA and archaeology. Plus, they have tablets from the Ugarit in Ras Shamra. So they are brothers.

Yes, Mr. DeSantis, Palestinians are Indigenous, Descended from the Canaanites, and Palestinian Identity is not New

Ann Arbor (Informed Comment) - Here is Part 2 of my argument with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis concerning his uninformed and bigoted comments about Palestinians. Part I is here Who are the Palestinians? Nowadays, they are the Arabic-speaking inhabitants of the area stretching from the Jordan...

www.juancole.com

What we now call Palestinians are for the most part descendants of groups who have been in the Near East for four thousand years, at least.

A branch of the Canaanites became Jews, while others became Nabataeans and Phoenicians.

Rome conquered this region beginning in the first century BCE and then extended its holdings into Nabataea (106 AD), Syria and Lebanon. From the 300s the Roman state increasingly backed Christianity, so that most Levantines adopted that religion, though large numbers of Jews held out.

From the 630s the Near East began coming under Arab Muslim rule and over hundreds of years many people converted to Islam, including many Jews and Christians. So some of the ancestors of today’s Palestinians were themselves Jewish converts to Christianity or Islam.

“Palestine” as a term for a geographical unit and sometimes a regional identity appears in Arab Muslim sources. The “Jund Filastin” (Filastin is the Arabic transcription of Palestine) was a military district of Syria (Sham) in the Umayyad and Abbasid Empires.

The chroniclers of later empires that ruled this area referred to it as “Filastin.” There were mints for coins there and the word occurs on some medieval coins.

The great Israeli historian Haim Gerber writes in his “Palestine” and Other Territorial Concepts in the 17th Century,” (IJMES 1998): “Little-used sources from the 17th and 18th centuries indicate some remarkable traces of awareness of territorial consciousness that deserve closer scrutiny.

The main source in question is a two-volume fatwa (legal opinion) composed by the Palestinian Mufti Khayr al-Din al-Ramli (1585-1670), which on many occasions mentions the concepts Filastin, biladuna (our country), al-Sham (Syria), Misr (Egypt), and diyar (country), in senses that go far beyond “mere” objective.”

As for Jews, as far as geneticists can tell, around 800 CE a large male trading colony of Levantine Jews left the Abbasid Empire and crossed the Mediterranean to settle in Rome. That the Jewish diaspora derived from their expulsion by the Roman Empire after the Bar Kochba revolt is a myth.

There were lots of Jews in Roman Palestine. Of those who went to Europe for trade, some members eventually moved into what is now Poland, Ukraine and Russia. They tended to take local wives, who converted to Judaism when they married. These became the Ashkenazi Jews.

They typically have some Canaanite genetic heritage, though Ashkenazi women are genetically mostly gentiles, and mostly unrelated to one another.

The trick here, though, is that geneticists can only trace genealogy through the male y chromosome or though the female mitochondrial DNA.

All the other genes split and join with new ones in every generation, so that nothing can be traced. So an Ashkenazi, European Jewish man is descended from all those gentile great-great grandmothers of the past, but they left no permanent trace in the way that the male line of Jewish descent did. And Ashkenazi women have a lot of heritage from their Jewish male ancestors that can no longer be detected.

While genetic history is working itself into various forms of nationalism, I wish it wouldn’t. For one thing, human beings just aren’t that different from one another, even if they carry distinctive haplotypes.

Haplotypes are “a set of DNA variants along a single chromosome that tend to be inherited together.” But humans are always evolving and intermarrying, and haplotypes come and go. Some really old human DNA has yielded haplotypes that don’t seem even to exist any more. We all have diverse ancestries, most of which can no longer be traced.

But the reverse is also true. Naive nationalists misuse genealogical history to exclude and demonize.

Some Jewish nationalists or Zionists seem to really mind the scientific finding that today’s Palestinians and other Levantine Arabs show strong genetic continuity with the Canaanites.

This dismay derives from the Canaanite city-states and small kingdoms having preceded Israel in history, such that they have a stronger claim on being indigenous. If Palestinians are the descendants of the Canaanites, do they have a superior claim on today’s Israel/Palestine?

Sure, if haplotypes were all that mattered. They aren’t. Human beings today have individual rights, incorporated into treaty law via UN instruments.

Palestinians and Israelis both have a Canaanite heritage. That is irrelevant to their present-day human rights. Both should have the right to basic human freedoms, to citizenship in a state, to their own property and livelihoods and to self-fulfilment. Both should be able to live free of violence. These basic rights matter more than from whom they are descended or where their ancestors used to live.

 

[Robert W]

It been Syria Palestine since 500 BC. Palestine is a province of Syria. Didn't you ever read the old testament?

Actually, no I do not.

 

[Sixties Fan]

It been Syria Palestine since 500 BC. Palestine is a province of Syria. Didn't you ever read the old testament?

Is that why the Romans called Judea the Province of Judea instead of Syrian Palestine AFTER the revolts?

The Greeks called it Judea (Greek for Judah)
The Assyrians called it Israel and Judea, both kingdoms.

Small details you do not like to bring up.

 

[surada]

Is that why the Romans called Judea the Province of Judea instead of Syrian Palestine AFTER the revolts?

The Greeks called it Judea (Greek for Judah)
The Assyrians called it Israel and Judea, both kingdoms.

Small details you do not like to bring up.

Judea was a Roman province from 6 to 132 CE.

The Greeks called it Syria -palestine.

 

[Sixties Fan]

My God, you're dumb. David bought Jerusalem from a Jebusite.

What does that have to do with what MJB said.

Yes, King David conquered Jerusalem and paid for it to the Jebusites who lived there. Abraham paid for the place where eventually Sarah and others were buried.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Judea was a Roman province from 6 to 132 CE.

The Greeks called it Syria -palestine.

Who cares.
The Greeks and Romans and Byzantine and following invading Muslims knew that the Jews were the indigenous people of that land. It is recorded in their writings.

No signs of some "Palestinian people" when any of those powers invaded.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Some will find this disturbing, but they have learned a lot from DNA and archaeology. Plus, they have tablets from the Ugarit in Ras Shamra. So they are brothers.

Yes, Mr. DeSantis, Palestinians are Indigenous, Descended from the Canaanites, and Palestinian Identity is not New

Ann Arbor (Informed Comment) - Here is Part 2 of my argument with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis concerning his uninformed and bigoted comments about Palestinians. Part I is here Who are the Palestinians? Nowadays, they are the Arabic-speaking inhabitants of the area stretching from the Jordan...

www.juancole.com

What we now call Palestinians are for the most part descendants of groups who have been in the Near East for four thousand years, at least.

A branch of the Canaanites became Jews, while others became Nabataeans and Phoenicians.

Rome conquered this region beginning in the first century BCE and then extended its holdings into Nabataea (106 AD), Syria and Lebanon. From the 300s the Roman state increasingly backed Christianity, so that most Levantines adopted that religion, though large numbers of Jews held out.

From the 630s the Near East began coming under Arab Muslim rule and over hundreds of years many people converted to Islam, including many Jews and Christians. So some of the ancestors of today’s Palestinians were themselves Jewish converts to Christianity or Islam.

“Palestine” as a term for a geographical unit and sometimes a regional identity appears in Arab Muslim sources. The “Jund Filastin” (Filastin is the Arabic transcription of Palestine) was a military district of Syria (Sham) in the Umayyad and Abbasid Empires.

The chroniclers of later empires that ruled this area referred to it as “Filastin.” There were mints for coins there and the word occurs on some medieval coins.

The great Israeli historian Haim Gerber writes in his “Palestine” and Other Territorial Concepts in the 17th Century,” (IJMES 1998): “Little-used sources from the 17th and 18th centuries indicate some remarkable traces of awareness of territorial consciousness that deserve closer scrutiny.

The main source in question is a two-volume fatwa (legal opinion) composed by the Palestinian Mufti Khayr al-Din al-Ramli (1585-1670), which on many occasions mentions the concepts Filastin, biladuna (our country), al-Sham (Syria), Misr (Egypt), and diyar (country), in senses that go far beyond “mere” objective.”

As for Jews, as far as geneticists can tell, around 800 CE a large male trading colony of Levantine Jews left the Abbasid Empire and crossed the Mediterranean to settle in Rome. That the Jewish diaspora derived from their expulsion by the Roman Empire after the Bar Kochba revolt is a myth.

There were lots of Jews in Roman Palestine. Of those who went to Europe for trade, some members eventually moved into what is now Poland, Ukraine and Russia. They tended to take local wives, who converted to Judaism when they married. These became the Ashkenazi Jews.

They typically have some Canaanite genetic heritage, though Ashkenazi women are genetically mostly gentiles, and mostly unrelated to one another.

The trick here, though, is that geneticists can only trace genealogy through the male y chromosome or though the female mitochondrial DNA.

All the other genes split and join with new ones in every generation, so that nothing can be traced. So an Ashkenazi, European Jewish man is descended from all those gentile great-great grandmothers of the past, but they left no permanent trace in the way that the male line of Jewish descent did. And Ashkenazi women have a lot of heritage from their Jewish male ancestors that can no longer be detected.

While genetic history is working itself into various forms of nationalism, I wish it wouldn’t. For one thing, human beings just aren’t that different from one another, even if they carry distinctive haplotypes.

Haplotypes are “a set of DNA variants along a single chromosome that tend to be inherited together.” But humans are always evolving and intermarrying, and haplotypes come and go. Some really old human DNA has yielded haplotypes that don’t seem even to exist any more. We all have diverse ancestries, most of which can no longer be traced.

But the reverse is also true. Naive nationalists misuse genealogical history to exclude and demonize.

Some Jewish nationalists or Zionists seem to really mind the scientific finding that today’s Palestinians and other Levantine Arabs show strong genetic continuity with the Canaanites.

This dismay derives from the Canaanite city-states and small kingdoms having preceded Israel in history, such that they have a stronger claim on being indigenous. If Palestinians are the descendants of the Canaanites, do they have a superior claim on today’s Israel/Palestine?

Sure, if haplotypes were all that mattered. They aren’t. Human beings today have individual rights, incorporated into treaty law via UN instruments.

Palestinians and Israelis both have a Canaanite heritage. That is irrelevant to their present-day human rights. Both should have the right to basic human freedoms, to citizenship in a state, to their own property and livelihoods and to self-fulfilment. Both should be able to live free of violence. These basic rights matter more than from whom they are descended or where their ancestors used to live.

There is NO, NONE, proof that most Palestinians are descendants of people who lived in the Land of Israel, or even Canaan.

Lie all you like, especially about Israel not giving basic rights to Palestinians which is totally denied by the history of Israel and all the people from Gaza and PA being helped by the Israeli government with health care, education, etc.


What does Hamas, the PA, Fatah and the PLO give their people?

Horror stories about the Jews and Israelis which make some of them, even ten year old children, want to go and kill Jews.


Israel gives decency and respect, Muslims give lies and disrespect and death. Al Hussaini, Arafat, Abbas, etc have turned too many decent people into murderers for a piece of land which does NOT belong to them. They want it for Islam, not for a people, history and culture which never existed. Definitely not before the Mandate for Palestine came to be, and Definitely before Arafat adopted that name in 1964 as a nationality.


The truth matters. SPREAD it.

 

[surada]

Who cares.
The Greeks and Romans and Byzantine and following invading Muslims knew that the Jews were the indigenous people of that land. It is recorded in their writings.

No signs of some "Palestinian people" when any of those powers invaded.

So are the Palestinians. Their ancestors were also Jews and Canaanites. They have been in Palestine for 4,000 years.
That's the point. Some of the Canaanites became Phoenicians. I've told you before there's more to history than Jewish history.

 

[Sixties Fan]

So are the Palestinians. Their ancestors were also Jews and Canaanites. They have been in Palestine for 4,000 years.
That's the point. Some of the Canaanites became Phoenicians. I've told you before there's more to history than Jewish history.

You have moved that date post way too many times. You do not even believe the endless dates you have given.

Yes, Phoenicians were Canaanites and the Israelites had trade with them and dealt with them. And still, no Palestinians during any time of the Phoenician history.

One cannot make Palestinians be the descendants of people they are not. That is lying, cheating for the cause of destroying Israel.


Find some decency some day and live by it.

 

[rampart]

Some will find this disturbing, but they have learned a lot from DNA and archaeology. Plus, they have tablets from the Ugarit in Ras Shamra. So they are brothers.

Yes, Mr. DeSantis, Palestinians are Indigenous, Descended from the Canaanites, and Palestinian Identity is not New

Ann Arbor (Informed Comment) - Here is Part 2 of my argument with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis concerning his uninformed and bigoted comments about Palestinians. Part I is here Who are the Palestinians? Nowadays, they are the Arabic-speaking inhabitants of the area stretching from the Jordan...

www.juancole.com

What we now call Palestinians are for the most part descendants of groups who have been in the Near East for four thousand years, at least.

A branch of the Canaanites became Jews, while others became Nabataeans and Phoenicians.

Rome conquered this region beginning in the first century BCE and then extended its holdings into Nabataea (106 AD), Syria and Lebanon. From the 300s the Roman state increasingly backed Christianity, so that most Levantines adopted that religion, though large numbers of Jews held out.

From the 630s the Near East began coming under Arab Muslim rule and over hundreds of years many people converted to Islam, including many Jews and Christians. So some of the ancestors of today’s Palestinians were themselves Jewish converts to Christianity or Islam.

“Palestine” as a term for a geographical unit and sometimes a regional identity appears in Arab Muslim sources. The “Jund Filastin” (Filastin is the Arabic transcription of Palestine) was a military district of Syria (Sham) in the Umayyad and Abbasid Empires. The chroniclers of later empires that ruled this area referred to it as “Filastin.” There were mints for coins there and the word occurs on some medieval coins.

The great Israeli historian Haim Gerber writes in his “Palestine” and Other Territorial Concepts in the 17th Century,” (IJMES 1998): “Little-used sources from the 17th and 18th centuries indicate some remarkable traces of awareness of territorial consciousness that deserve closer scrutiny. The main source in question is a two-volume fatwa (legal opinion) composed by the Palestinian Mufti Khayr al-Din al-Ramli (1585-1670), which on many occasions mentions the concepts Filastin, biladuna (our country), al-Sham (Syria), Misr (Egypt), and diyar (country), in senses that go far beyond “mere” objective.”

As for Jews, as far as geneticists can tell, around 800 CE a large male trading colony of Levantine Jews left the Abbasid Empire and crossed the Mediterranean to settle in Rome. That the Jewish diaspora derived from their expulsion by the Roman Empire after the Bar Kochba revolt is a myth.

There were lots of Jews in Roman Palestine. Of those who went to Europe for trade, some members eventually moved into what is now Poland, Ukraine and Russia. They tended to take local wives, who converted to Judaism when they married. These became the Ashkenazi Jews.

They typically have some Canaanite genetic heritage, though Ashkenazi women are genetically mostly gentiles, and mostly unrelated to one another.

The trick here, though, is that geneticists can only trace genealogy through the male y chromosome or though the female mitochondrial DNA. All the other genes split and join with new ones in every generation, so that nothing can be traced. So an Ashkenazi, European Jewish man is descended from all those gentile great-great grandmothers of the past, but they left no permanent trace in the way that the male line of Jewish descent did. And Ashkenazi women have a lot of heritage from their Jewish male ancestors that can no longer be detected.

While genetic history is working itself into various forms of nationalism, I wish it wouldn’t. For one thing, human beings just aren’t that different from one another, even if they carry distinctive haplotypes. Haplotypes are “a set of DNA variants along a single chromosome that tend to be inherited together.” But humans are always evolving and intermarrying, and haplotypes come and go. Some really old human DNA has yielded haplotypes that don’t seem even to exist any more. We all have diverse ancestries, most of which can no longer be traced.

But the reverse is also true. Naive nationalists misuse genealogical history to exclude and demonize. Some Jewish nationalists or Zionists seem to really mind the scientific finding that today’s Palestinians and other Levantine Arabs show strong genetic continuity with the Canaanites.

This dismay derives from the Canaanite city-states and small kingdoms having preceded Israel in history, such that they have a stronger claim on being indigenous. If Palestinians are the descendants of the Canaanites, do they have a superior claim on today’s Israel/Palestine?

Sure, if haplotypes were all that mattered. They aren’t. Human beings today have individual rights, incorporated into treaty law via UN instruments.

Palestinians and Israelis both have a Canaanite heritage. That is irrelevant to their present-day human rights. Both should have the right to basic human freedoms, to citizenship in a state, to their own property and livelihoods and to self-fulfilment. Both should be able to live free of violence. These basic rights matter more than from whom they are descended or where their ancestors used to live.

this should be the end of it all, surada. we are all human, with one planet. we can learn to share, and sustain, this planet or we can all die. "god" does not care.

 

[surada]

Indigenous means "we were here first". Lands in the ME have swapped ownership there for millennia. Can so called Palestinians prove they were there before any other people throughout human history? No.

The Akkadian Empire was there first and they were from Arabia.

The stories are not actually history.