2/3 say ditch individual health care mandate

[Mr. Shaman]

My own thought on ObamaCare (or what we used to call RomneyCare) is that it really doesn't address the real problem.... that health care costs are increasing at three times the rate of regular inflation, combined with a demographically aging society.

....Which is exactly WHY BU$HCO's MEDICARE D is gettin'.....​

....DEEP-SIXED!!!!!

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Addressing Overpayments to Big Insurance Companies
Effective January 1, 2011​

"Today, Medicare pays Medicare Advantage insurance companies over $1,000 more per person on average than is spent per person in Original Medicare. This results in increased premiums for all Medicare beneficiaries, including the 77% of beneficiaries who are not currently enrolled in a Medicare Advantage plan. The new law levels the playing field by gradually eliminating this discrepancy. People enrolled in a Medicare Advantage plan will still receive all guaranteed Medicare benefits, and the law provides bonus payments to Medicare Advantage plans that provide high quality care."

 

[JoeB131]

Remind me what the right wants to force. And no, abortion doesn't count.
I don't give a shit about "every other industrialized nation." That is crap. It is a non-argument. Every other industrialized nation has lower corporate tax rates than we do. Do you support lower taxes on corporations?

Yeah, not letting a woman get an abortion DOES count as the right trying to force their way. Sorry.

Not talking about tax rates on Corporations. They have higher income taxes on the wealthy to compensate, and hey, "Corporations are people, too". They tax the profits at the individual level.

Now, please go back on track. How is it the rest of the industrialized world pays less per capita, lives longer, has a lower infant mortality rate, if single payer, socialized medicine or universal health care is just sooooo darned awful?

Why is there no country that is out there clamoring for "American Style Health Care". They kind of look at us like we're fat retards . And in this case, they are probably right.

 

[8537]

Except those costs are rising in part because of gov't interference. Obamacare will make that trend worse, much worse.

So in countries that have more government "interference", we should see more expensive health care costs?

Hmm...let's look around and see if that's the case, shall we?

 

[LoneLaugher]

OK........but you simply cannot look beyond our borders. America is exceptional and what they do in other countries does not apply here.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Except those costs are rising in part because of gov't interference. Obamacare will make that trend worse, much worse.

So in countries that have more government "interference", we should see more expensive health care costs?

Hmm...let's look around and see if that's the case, shall we?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxNhOBemsic]Q&A: T.R. Reid - YouTube[/ame]

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[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi1acHg3mhw]BILL MOYERS JOURNAL | Single Payer Health Insurance | PBS - YouTube[/ame]​

 

[FA_Q2]

My own thought on ObamaCare (or what we used to call RomneyCare) is that it really doesn't address the real problem.... that health care costs are increasing at three times the rate of regular inflation, combined with a demographically aging society.

In fact, it makes the problem worse by holding the public hostage to insurance companies when what we really need is less insurance on the base cases with more for the extreme cases. I need insurance for cancer, not birth control. Missing limbs, not a broken arm. When you get a cold there is no reason to have the insurance company pay for the doctor visit - it is asinine.

I actually kind of agree with this. But here's the thing, this is how the doctors make their money.

I had an operation that is usually considered "elective", but I had a medical reason for it. My doctor charged my insurance company $32,000. A co-worker tried to get the same operation, but in her case, it really was elective and the insurance company wouldn't cover it. Same Doctor. Same procedure. They did it for her for $17,000.

That's because of market forces drives cost down (not to mention affordability). We NEED to go to a system that allows competitive pricing.

The problem with "Pay as you go" health coverage is that people will neglect that cold until it turns into Pneumonia. They'll hobble around on that broken ankle hoping it will get better on its own.

Some will, yes. And many others will not. Some do that now. What is the difference? There is none. There are more things required to drive costs down and there are going to be problems with all of them but pay as you go for minor incidents is by far the best that I can see with the least in consequences.

The other part of the problem is that instead of just paying people, and letting them get a policy that fits their needs, we've made health insurance a form of compensation. While wages for working folks have remained flat in the last 30 years, the cost of health insurance has ballooned.

If we just paid people what their insurance cost and made them go out and get their own insurance, the system would collapse. It would become like car insurance, and older people would be like the ones who get frequent accidents- they'd be uninsurable.

I don't think you are correct here. I am on the complete other side of this issue and while I am a small government guy, the beast we have created with employer HC needs to be killed. The only way I see that happening is making it ILLEGAL for employers to offer HC plans. That's right, it should be illegal. You are creating an inherent problem in the system when you separate the customer from the product. With healthcare, insurance does this. By having the employer involved it simply adds another layer to the problem. In essence, you have the user (you) covered by an insurance company that is beholden to the employer's desires paying for a product the employer never uses. You are completely removed from the process AND your doctor.

The system would not collapse. Quite the contrary, insurance companies would actually have to cater to the users of their service rather than some vaunted third party. It would also address the problems that occur when you lose your job and suddenly your insurance is gone.


IAW: have you ever had to deal with healthcare in one of these 'better' countries. I have been through the German HC system and can say, without a single doubt, our system is FAR better. Many of the things you note in your last post about those countries that have single payer systems are not so cut and dry as you made them out to be.

 

[Claudette]

My own thought on ObamaCare (or what we used to call RomneyCare) is that it really doesn't address the real problem.... that health care costs are increasing at three times the rate of regular inflation, combined with a demographically aging society.

All ObamaCare does is spread the costs around a little more by forcing people into the system, subsidzing others, and reducing a few costs like eliminating the people who use emergency rooms as their family doctors.

Because we see Health Coverage as a form of compensation rather than as a public service like every other sensible country does, we come up with these creative concepts of how you've "earned" your health care when in fact, when you need it, you are taking more than you ever put in.

"Forcing" is the key word here. I don't want government "forcing" its citizens into anything short of national emergency.
That is the difference. The Left wants to force people to behave in certain ways. The Right only wants to force them not to behave in certain ways.
Health insurance is fundamentally no different from any other insurance. That is why it is compensation when paid by employers.
Obamacare is a demonstrated disaster waiting to happen. Every state that has tried this system has had exactly the same experience: exploding costs. Tennessee dismantled Tenncare for exactly this reason. Why anyone thinks it will be different this time is beyond me.
If yoy think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free.[/QUOTE

How right you are.

This bill does nothing to address the problem with HC, The cost.

The idiot Dems passed this clusterfuck in the face of strong opposition from the people. They, of course, know whats good for you and you the taxpayer are an idiot in need of guidance.

Yep. If you think HC is expensive now just wait this Obamacare drops on us like a fucking bomb.

The only winners will be those that couldn't afford HC before Obamacare. The rest of us will be footing the bills.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Disingenuous nutters.

The high cost of health care is due to the fact that it is a "for profit" industry. Health care should be nationalized, paid for with tax revenues and delivered without regard for profit........to the same degree to all.

 

[8537]

This bill does nothing to address the problem with HC, The cost.
.

How do you suggest we address this problem? Ration services or ration access?

 

[The Rabbi]

Remind me what the right wants to force. And no, abortion doesn't count.
I don't give a shit about "every other industrialized nation." That is crap. It is a non-argument. Every other industrialized nation has lower corporate tax rates than we do. Do you support lower taxes on corporations?

Yeah, not letting a woman get an abortion DOES count as the right trying to force their way. Sorry.

Not talking about tax rates on Corporations. They have higher income taxes on the wealthy to compensate, and hey, "Corporations are people, too". They tax the profits at the individual level.

Now, please go back on track. How is it the rest of the industrialized world pays less per capita, lives longer, has a lower infant mortality rate, if single payer, socialized medicine or universal health care is just sooooo darned awful?

Why is there no country that is out there clamoring for "American Style Health Care". They kind of look at us like we're fat retards . And in this case, they are probably right.

Wow. Like predictable or what. Or course with abortion there is another person involved.

Let's look at health care in other countries.
Britain: system bankrupt.
Canada: system bankrupt
Germany: system bankrupt
etc
Germany is instituting American style competition to get prices down. We can look at them like bankrupt retards. Which they are.

 

[The Rabbi]

Except those costs are rising in part because of gov't interference. Obamacare will make that trend worse, much worse.

So in countries that have more government "interference", we should see more expensive health care costs?

Hmm...let's look around and see if that's the case, shall we?

All countries with socializes systems are seeing their health care costs exploding. They are all trying desperately to institute changes to control those costs.
Go right ahead and look and see.
Tool.

 

[The Rabbi]

OK........but you simply cannot look beyond our borders. America is exceptional and what they do in other countries does not apply here.

The US is exceptional in its demographics and its geography.

 

[Full-Auto]

There is no explaining the disdain that nutters have for the idea of a healthy society.

That is laughable. I have yet to hear anyone of the nuts say anything in that respect.

The idea was to control costs, the response from the left was OK more freebees.

Remember this from the party on the left.

Any cut is extreme. How much further will the debt take us, all the way to the crash.

 

[LoneLaugher]

And.....apparently in it's high number of greedy fucks who don't mind lying all the time.

 

[The Rabbi]

This bill does nothing to address the problem with HC, The cost.
.

How do you suggest we address this problem? Ration services or ration access?

That is certainly the Democratic approach.
A better one would be putting the individual in charge of his own health care, including costs. People are better spenders of their own money than of someone else's money.

 

[The Rabbi]

And.....apparently in it's high number of greedy fucks who don't mind lying all the time.

But enough about you.

 

[LoneLaugher]

There is no explaining the disdain that nutters have for the idea of a healthy society.

That is laughable. I have yet to hear anyone of the nuts say anything in that respect.

The idea was to control costs, the response from the left was OK more freebees.

Remember this from the party on the left.

Any cut is extreme. How much further will the debt take us, all the way to the crash.

The idea is to get EVERYONE health care. Cost is secondary to that goal. But cost is reduced by making sure EVERYBODY has access to quality health care. Fucking DUH!

 

[Jarhead]

This bill does nothing to address the problem with HC, The cost.
.

How do you suggest we address this problem? Ration services or ration access?

That is certainly the Democratic approach.
A better one would be putting the individual in charge of his own health care, including costs. People are better spenders of their own money than of someone else's money.

That..^^^^.....above in BOLD RED.

Enough said.

 

[The Rabbi]

There is no explaining the disdain that nutters have for the idea of a healthy society.

That is laughable. I have yet to hear anyone of the nuts say anything in that respect.

The idea was to control costs, the response from the left was OK more freebees.

Remember this from the party on the left.

Any cut is extreme. How much further will the debt take us, all the way to the crash.

The idea is to get EVERYONE health care. Cost is secondary to that goal. But cost is reduced by making sure EVERYBODY has access to quality health care. Fucking DUH!

No on is denied health care in this country.
Another myth of the Left.
Recall that Obamacare was supposed to insure coverage for the 13M Americans who were supposedly without. When all is said and done we could have hired a personal physician for every one of those 13M people cheaper than this piece of shit system they've put in place.

 

[Jarhead]

There is no explaining the disdain that nutters have for the idea of a healthy society.

That is laughable. I have yet to hear anyone of the nuts say anything in that respect.

The idea was to control costs, the response from the left was OK more freebees.

Remember this from the party on the left.

Any cut is extreme. How much further will the debt take us, all the way to the crash.

The idea is to get EVERYONE health care. Cost is secondary to that goal. But cost is reduced by making sure EVERYBODY has access to quality health care. Fucking DUH!

the average framily spends more money a year on a roof over their head with heat, electricity, and a cooking facilities than they do on healthcare.

Now...is having a roof over yoiur head as described above any less important than healthcare?

So why is there not a law about thjat as well?

How about a law regarding winter coats for kids.

In other words...whats next?