A good guy with a gun versus a bad one with a gun???

[2aguy]

Inevitably, gun nuts will be heralding that it is now absolutely necessary for EVERYONE to have a gun......even folks who [supposedly] attend a religious service,praising Jesus and calling out for peace and harmony in the world.

How essentially different are these gun nuts in mixing guns and Bibles, than their counterparts Jihadists who mix bomb vests with the Koran?

/-----/

Inevitably, gun nuts will be heralding that it is now absolutely necessary for EVERYONE to have a gun......even folks who [supposedly] attend a religious service,praising Jesus and calling out for peace and harmony in the world.

How essentially different are these gun nuts in mixing guns and Bibles, than their counterparts Jihadists who mix bomb vests with the Koran?

/-----/ View attachment 158958

When did Obama say you shouldnt have a gun? We do know the first 5 in the first row were racists.

He let his judges on the 9th circuit and the 4th circuit as well as Gov. Cuomo and Gov. Brown do it for him...

 

[2aguy]

A man with a gun is a man who can kill at any moment. Even police!!!!

A good man with a gun is a man who can fight an evil man intent on murdering innocents.....and those good men and women with guns in America use them 1,500,000 times a year to stop evil people from committing rapes, robberies and murders, and yes...even mass public shootings...as the good guy with the AR-15 civilian rifle did....

 

[2aguy]

a little info for you Nat . --- Good Guy with a Gun: Stephen Willeford Named as Man Who Stopped Texas Shooter - Breitbart --- and icing on the cake is that this Gent is also a motorcyclist Nat !!

The real charm of that story....He used an AR-15 civilian rifle to stop the shooter......that is freaking golden....

 

[2aguy]

Inevitably, gun nuts will be heralding that it is now absolutely necessary for EVERYONE to have a gun......even folks who [supposedly] attend a religious service,praising Jesus and calling out for peace and harmony in the world.

How essentially different are these gun nuts in mixing guns and Bibles, than their counterparts Jihadists who mix bomb vests with the Koran?

Well, the Walmart shooter had a whole stack of bibles.

So there's that.

As did the church goers murdered by the atheist in that Texas church.....

 

[2aguy]

That was just odd.

Want some more "comparisons"???

• Who is all for denying a woman's right to choose what goes on in her womb?

• Who is anti-gay and...left alone in their mob mentality would also throw gays off a roof?

• Who is all for intertwining religion with government?

No one.....who is for keeping a woman from killing an unborn human being?

Who is for forcing Americans to work against their religious beliefs....also protected by the 1st Amendment...?

Who is for government controlling every aspect of life....?

 

[charwin95]

a little info for you Nat . --- Good Guy with a Gun: Stephen Willeford Named as Man Who Stopped Texas Shooter - Breitbart --- and icing on the cake is that this Gent is also a motorcyclist Nat !!

The real charm of that story....He used an AR-15 civilian rifle to stop the shooter......that is freaking golden....

After he murdered 26. That is not a freaking golden dude.
As I told you before this will happen again and again because of people like you. Your are part of the problem.

 

[2aguy]

Inevitably, gun nuts will be heralding that it is now absolutely necessary for EVERYONE to have a gun......even folks who [supposedly] attend a religious service,praising Jesus and calling out for peace and harmony in the world.

How essentially different are these gun nuts in mixing guns and Bibles, than their counterparts Jihadists who mix bomb vests with the Koran?

Do Jihadists use the bombs for self defense?

We learn something new every day. The leftist views are truly illuminating.

High capacity mags are getting them closer to that goal.

Nonetheless, that's lame.

Fact is, most shooters are christian, most domestic terrorists are christian, most prisoners are christian.

No.....magazine capacity has no bearing on how many are murdered by atheists....

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----

How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

(1) the shooter was reloading, or because

(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

 

[Nosmo King]

All we know for sure, is that Progressive government and unarmed citizens leave a 9 figure body count

How can you point to politics as the reason for a high body count when it could not reach those numbers without assault weapons? A high body count using a revolver is six.

 

[2aguy]

a little info for you Nat . --- Good Guy with a Gun: Stephen Willeford Named as Man Who Stopped Texas Shooter - Breitbart --- and icing on the cake is that this Gent is also a motorcyclist Nat !!

The real charm of that story....He used an AR-15 civilian rifle to stop the shooter......that is freaking golden....

After he murdered 26. That is not a freaking golden dude.
As I told you before this will happen again and again because of people like you. Your are part of the problem.

No...it will happen over and over because morons like you have created gun free zones that are getting innocent people targeted by these killers.....you are the problem.....that, and people like you keep letting violent gun offenders back on the streets, then bitch about law abiding gun owners....

 

[MarkDuffy]

The Latest: 15 empty magazines of 30 rounds each at scene

Jesus, the scumbag went around afterwards shooting the victims over and over until he ran outta ammo.

The good guy with a gun saved NO ONE

 

[2aguy]

All we know for sure, is that Progressive government and unarmed citizens leave a 9 figure body count

How can you point to politics as the reason for a high body count when it could not reach those numbers without assault weapons? A high body count using a revolver is six.

Moron...the Virginia Tech shooter murdered 32...with pistols......

And it wasn't a military rifle.....it was a civilian AR-15....the same rifle the good guy used to stop the killer since the police were nowhere to be found....

The Virginia tech shooter murdered 32 and injured 17....moron.....with pistols..

Virginia Tech shooting - Wikipedia

The Virginia Tech shooting, also known as the Virginia Tech massacre, occurred on April 16, 2007, on the campus of Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, Virginia, United States. Seung-Hui Cho, a senior at Virginia Tech, shot and killed 32 people and wounded 17 others in two separate attacks (another six people were injured escaping from classroom windows), approximately two hours apart, before committing suicide.[6]:92[7][9]:78

 

[charwin95]

A man with a gun is a man who can kill at any moment. Even police!!!!

A good man with a gun is a man who can fight an evil man intent on murdering innocents.....and those good men and women with guns in America use them 1,500,000 times a year to stop evil people from committing rapes, robberies and murders, and yes...even mass public shootings...as the good guy with the AR-15 civilian rifle did....

You assumed that all gun owners are responsible or law abiding citizens.

That massacre took place in Texas where people carry their guns all over because they are so scared pussy they are going to get shot.
Did it stop the massacre? Hell NO.
Let’s say ALL the church goers are armed. How are you going to stop this dude? Before he start spraying.

 

[2aguy]

All we know for sure, is that Progressive government and unarmed citizens leave a 9 figure body count

How can you point to politics as the reason for a high body count when it could not reach those numbers without assault weapons? A high body count using a revolver is six.

Moron....if you ever get your way and ban all semi auto weapons..which is the true goal of gun grabbers...the very next mass shooter will use a bag of 6 shot revolvers and murder just as many people......watch and learn...idiot....

 

[2aguy]

A man with a gun is a man who can kill at any moment. Even police!!!!

A good man with a gun is a man who can fight an evil man intent on murdering innocents.....and those good men and women with guns in America use them 1,500,000 times a year to stop evil people from committing rapes, robberies and murders, and yes...even mass public shootings...as the good guy with the AR-15 civilian rifle did....

You assumed that all gun owners are responsible or law abiding citizens.

That massacre took place in Texas where people carry their guns all over because they are so scared pussy they are going to get shot.
Did it stop the massacre? Hell NO.
Let’s say ALL the church goers are armed. How are you going to stop this dude? Before he start spraying.

They didn't carry their guns in that church.....because of people like you.....so were they scared pussy before or after the atheist burst in and murdered 26 of them...you fucking moron.

No one in the church had a gun to stop the guy...but the guy outside of the gun free zone...he had an AR-15 civilian rifle and stopped the guy...since the police weren't there to do it....

You stop him by taking out your gun and shooting him.....40 to 1 are better odds when some of the 40 have guns....

 

[2aguy]

The Latest: 15 empty magazines of 30 rounds each at scene

Jesus, the scumbag went around afterwards shooting the victims over and over until he ran outta ammo.

The good guy with a gun saved NO ONE

Yeah.....magazine limits have no bearing on these mass shootings....he changed them 15 times.......the problem...no one else had a gun in that church......

And the civilian who stopped him because the police weren't there......hit him 2 times with his AR-15 civilian rifle.......that stopped him from leaving the scene freely, and kept him from tracking down the people he went there to kill.....

 

[Desperado]

A good guy with a gun versus a bad one with a gun???
Bad guy with a gun takes lives
Good guy with a gun saves lives.
Any Questions?

 

[2aguy]

The Latest: 15 empty magazines of 30 rounds each at scene

Jesus, the scumbag went around afterwards shooting the victims over and over until he ran outta ammo.

The good guy with a gun saved NO ONE

Moron...no one in the church had a gun.......had there been more than a few with guns in there, lives would have been saved.....the civilian with the AR-15 ended his killing spree......without that civilian with the AR-15, he would have left without a problem since the police didn't arrive till after he left....but he left with 2 bullets in him which ended his killing spree......

 

[Missourian]

Inevitably, gun nuts will be heralding that it is now absolutely necessary for EVERYONE to have a gun......even folks who [supposedly] attend a religious service,praising Jesus and calling out for peace and harmony in the world.

How essentially different are these gun nuts in mixing guns and Bibles, than their counterparts Jihadists who mix bomb vests with the Koran?

Nothing in the Bible prohibits self defense.

In fact Jesus said..."“But now let he who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let he who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one." ---Luke 22:36

 

[Asclepias]

Looks like it was the good guy maybe 1 and the bad guy 26 and counting.

 

[2aguy]

Looks like it was the good guy maybe 1 and the bad guy 26 and counting.

Yeah...because morons like you made that church a gun free zone....had a few people in the church had guns...lives would have been saved..notice...when the good guy with a gun...had a fucking gun...he stopped the shooter....did you notice that?

Let me repeat that point...you are pretty slow....

The good guy who had the AR-15 civilian rifle.....he actually stopped the shooter.....by being able to shoot him.......