A Note Of Gratitude

[sealadaigh]

A bump and a thank you to our Veterans, today and always.

go raibh ma agat, mo chara.

 

[sealadaigh]

I happen to disagree with you on this point. If you do not pay your taxes you are playing in their home court.

You have to get the government to play in your home court.

i was making a suggestion of non-violent resistance to what appears to be a pacifist.

....indeed "wars are fought by people'...however they are planned and implemented by politicians...in fact history is one long, weary episode of a tiny group of men sending millions off to fight for reasons most of them never begin to comprehend...Iraq and Afghanistan are ideal examples....the media consciously equated these wars of aggression with somehow defending U.S. freedoms---and sure enough the mindless masses heeded the call. Until the powers that initiate these criminal wars are challenged---nothing will change, and we will continue to turn our childrens' lives over to bureaucratic monsters...

those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war.

poverty is what turns our children's lives over to bureaucratic monsters. the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us.

 

[Hossfly]

....indeed "wars are fought by people'...however they are planned and implemented by politicians...in fact history is one long, weary episode of a tiny group of men sending millions off to fight for reasons most of them never begin to comprehend...Iraq and Afghanistan are ideal examples....the media consciously equated these wars of aggression with somehow defending U.S. freedoms---and sure enough the mindless masses heeded the call. Until the powers that initiate these criminal wars are challenged---nothing will change, and we will continue to turn our childrens' lives over to bureaucratic monsters...

If we listen to and heed your wisdom, we will be enjoying Shariah in no time flat.

predictably this has to be one of the single dumbest statements I've read yet...you seem to be locked in competition with yourself for ever greater frontiers of stupidity.....YES HOSS-FACE!!!! THE DREADED ISLAMIC HORDES ARE COMING TO ENSLAVE YOU ...LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IF I LAUGH ANY HARDER I FEAR A DOUBLE HERNIA....

Right on, unbeliever. What is the aim of Islam? When it happens I will force you to wear a pink burkha and high-heeled tennis shoes.

 

[sealadaigh]

i was making a suggestion of non-violent resistance to what appears to be a pacifist.

....indeed "wars are fought by people'...however they are planned and implemented by politicians...in fact history is one long, weary episode of a tiny group of men sending millions off to fight for reasons most of them never begin to comprehend...Iraq and Afghanistan are ideal examples....the media consciously equated these wars of aggression with somehow defending U.S. freedoms---and sure enough the mindless masses heeded the call. Until the powers that initiate these criminal wars are challenged---nothing will change, and we will continue to turn our childrens' lives over to bureaucratic monsters...

If we listen to and heed your wisdom, we will be enjoying Shariah in no time flat.

i think you are fear mongering. there are a lot of laws based upon religious tracts that lay a good foundation for people to live. c heck out biblical law (the judeo-christian ethic) and the talmud, which influences us. taake the worst of it and you are going to have a pretty screwed up society.

 

[MHunterB]

What is this 'we' BS, Ima - are you claiming to be an American?

One who just happens to post pictures of Russia - a lot of them.

 

[MHunterB]

i was making a suggestion of non-violent resistance to what appears to be a pacifist.

....indeed "wars are fought by people'...however they are planned and implemented by politicians...in fact history is one long, weary episode of a tiny group of men sending millions off to fight for reasons most of them never begin to comprehend...Iraq and Afghanistan are ideal examples....the media consciously equated these wars of aggression with somehow defending U.S. freedoms---and sure enough the mindless masses heeded the call. Until the powers that initiate these criminal wars are challenged---nothing will change, and we will continue to turn our childrens' lives over to bureaucratic monsters...

those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war.

poverty is what turns our children's lives over to bureaucratic monsters. the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us.

While this those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war is true,that the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us. is a common misconception.

Actually, there is a strong tradition amongst the 'elite' of US and UK society of joining the military. And many families from the middle class also have a tradition of serving in the military as a form of service to the country. This goes back at least to the US Civil War, when the wealthy could legally buy their way out of service - but many did not.

I've read 'socio-economic' analyses of the casualties in the Vietnam War - and the stats do not agree with the quote above. I also know that 4 of the 5 of my kin who served, did so as enlisted. As did most of those I knew in school, before and after.

While it is absolutely true that the US military in particular has offered some of the very poorest of our citizens an unparalleled opportunity for education and leadership (multiple advanced degrees) - it is not true that the main reason most people enlist is because they have no other possible opportunities.

Sure, I was never in uniform. I'm just the daughter, SIL, cousin, wife of military vets - and the one I've been married to all these years was in charge of overseeing training of enlisted troops for many years of his service as 1Sgt and CSM. I dislike these attempts to portray our military personnel as ignorant boobs who are patsies of the 'corporate elites', as the usual class warfare drivel tends to go. People are NOT simpletons nor fools for wishing to serve in the military - nor were they unimaginative or unintelligent for not attempting to evade the Vietnam era draft.

 

[MHunterB]

There's been at least as much 'mindless pacifism' of young fools chanting 'No Blood for Oil' and other idiotic slogans.

I listened to the speeches at the so-claimed 'peace rallies' over 20 years ago, wanting to understand what my fellow citizens were so agitated about. I heard a long line of people speaking about what they hated and felt was wrong with the US: I didn't agree with very much that they claimed at all. And they seemed - EVERY LAST ONE! - to be so much more focused on how they hated this or that about the way they saw our nation, than they were on what they DID want. I heard an incredible amount of demagoguery and outright propaganda from those 'anti-war' speakers as well. And a lot of it was the selfsame rhetoric I'd heard back in the '60's and '70's, yes.

When I talked with my Mom, she'd heard an awful lot of the same talk back in the late '30's and into the '40's..... I have heard reports from older people that some similar ideas were voiced with regard to WW1.

Now, I'm not naive enough to think there'd only be propaganda on one side of any issue - but there certainly was a lot of readily-identifiable stuff coming out of these 'anti-war' speakers.

My main 'issue' remains that they were focused on negative aspects - and not a one offered anything by way of a potential alternative to going to war. That, and their continual demonizing of anyone within the government, led me to conclude their primary thought was NOT 'peace', but 'regime change' AT HOME. And by not necessarily peaceful means, either, as they glorified 'resistance' quite often.

 

[Hossfly]

....indeed "wars are fought by people'...however they are planned and implemented by politicians...in fact history is one long, weary episode of a tiny group of men sending millions off to fight for reasons most of them never begin to comprehend...Iraq and Afghanistan are ideal examples....the media consciously equated these wars of aggression with somehow defending U.S. freedoms---and sure enough the mindless masses heeded the call. Until the powers that initiate these criminal wars are challenged---nothing will change, and we will continue to turn our childrens' lives over to bureaucratic monsters...

those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war.

poverty is what turns our children's lives over to bureaucratic monsters. the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us.

While this those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war is true,that the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us. is a common misconception.

Actually, there is a strong tradition amongst the 'elite' of US and UK society of joining the military. And many families from the middle class also have a tradition of serving in the military as a form of service to the country. This goes back at least to the US Civil War, when the wealthy could legally buy their way out of service - but many did not.

I've read 'socio-economic' analyses of the casualties in the Vietnam War - and the stats do not agree with the quote above. I also know that 4 of the 5 of my kin who served, did so as enlisted. As did most of those I knew in school, before and after.

While it is absolutely true that the US military in particular has offered some of the very poorest of our citizens an unparalleled opportunity for education and leadership (multiple advanced degrees) - it is not true that the main reason most people enlist is because they have no other possible opportunities.

Sure, I was never in uniform. I'm just the daughter, SIL, cousin, wife of military vets - and the one I've been married to all these years was in charge of overseeing training of enlisted troops for many years of his service as 1Sgt and CSM. I dislike these attempts to portray our military personnel as ignorant boobs who are patsies of the 'corporate elites', as the usual class warfare drivel tends to go. People are NOT simpletons nor fools for wishing to serve in the military - nor were they unimaginative or unintelligent for not attempting to evade the Vietnam era draft.

I was born at the onset of WWII and my formative years were overwhelmed by the war. All my relatives and neighbors were involved in the wars and anyone with kith and kin kept maps with colored pins to mark the progress of their loved ones. I can't remember when I did not want to serve my country as I felt it was my duty. And so I've been serving the country to this day and I don't regret one second. My current projects are greeting returning troops at the airport USO, transporting vets from their homes to the VA clinics, donating to WWP and collecting for needy military families. Duty, Honor, Country.

 

[sealadaigh]

....indeed "wars are fought by people'...however they are planned and implemented by politicians...in fact history is one long, weary episode of a tiny group of men sending millions off to fight for reasons most of them never begin to comprehend...Iraq and Afghanistan are ideal examples....the media consciously equated these wars of aggression with somehow defending U.S. freedoms---and sure enough the mindless masses heeded the call. Until the powers that initiate these criminal wars are challenged---nothing will change, and we will continue to turn our childrens' lives over to bureaucratic monsters...

those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war.

poverty is what turns our children's lives over to bureaucratic monsters. the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us.

While this those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war is true,that the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us. is a common misconception.

Actually, there is a strong tradition amongst the 'elite' of US and UK society of joining the military. And many families from the middle class also have a tradition of serving in the military as a form of service to the country. This goes back at least to the US Civil War, when the wealthy could legally buy their way out of service - but many did not.

I've read 'socio-economic' analyses of the casualties in the Vietnam War - and the stats do not agree with the quote above. I also know that 4 of the 5 of my kin who served, did so as enlisted. As did most of those I knew in school, before and after.

While it is absolutely true that the US military in particular has offered some of the very poorest of our citizens an unparalleled opportunity for education and leadership (multiple advanced degrees) - it is not true that the main reason most people enlist is because they have no other possible opportunities.

Sure, I was never in uniform. I'm just the daughter, SIL, cousin, wife of military vets - and the one I've been married to all these years was in charge of overseeing training of enlisted troops for many years of his service as 1Sgt and CSM. I dislike these attempts to portray our military personnel as ignorant boobs who are patsies of the 'corporate elites', as the usual class warfare drivel tends to go. People are NOT simpletons nor fools for wishing to serve in the military - nor were they unimaginative or unintelligent for not attempting to evade the Vietnam era draft.

most of the people during the vietnam era that were drafted came from poorer families, as far as i could tell. i detested those who attempted to evade the draft. many of them, who were so anti-war when they were draft eligible, as soon as they were deferred, could have cared less.

i implied none of what you seem to suggest i implied. most of the people i was with were about what the average civilian population was, intelligence wise.

that middle class tradition usually comes from tthose whose ancestors came from poverty. many irish, native, and latino kids are in that category.

i enlisted in the middle of college myself. a lot of factors come into play. as far as i can tell, an e-1 today makes more than an e-1 of the vietnam era, adjusted...way, way, more.

 

[ima]

What is this 'we' BS, Ima - are you claiming to be an American?

One who just happens to post pictures of Russia - a lot of them.

Show me where I ever posted a picture of Russia or else

 

[kvetch]

predictably this has to be one of the single dumbest statements I've read yet...you seem to be locked in competition with yourself for ever greater frontiers of stupidity.....YES HOSS-FACE!!!! THE DREADED ISLAMIC HORDES ARE COMING TO ENSLAVE YOU ...LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IF I LAUGH ANY HARDER I FEAR A DOUBLE HERNIA....

Right on, unbeliever. What is the aim of Islam? When it happens I will force you to wear a pink burkha and high-heeled tennis shoes.

"when it happens"???? OWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!~! Please hoss-face...I beg you for some measure of mercy...I cannot laugh like this and maintain prime health. Does the image of me wearing a pink burkha and heels run your flag up the pole??? ....and I thought the goats were kinky....sigh

no codgie you are the dumbest poster here; worse than the zionuts
please laugh your ass off and try and stop talkin through it

 

[kvetch]

those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war.

poverty is what turns our children's lives over to bureaucratic monsters. the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us.

While this those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war is true,that the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us. is a common misconception.

Actually, there is a strong tradition amongst the 'elite' of US and UK society of joining the military. And many families from the middle class also have a tradition of serving in the military as a form of service to the country. This goes back at least to the US Civil War, when the wealthy could legally buy their way out of service - but many did not.

I've read 'socio-economic' analyses of the casualties in the Vietnam War - and the stats do not agree with the quote above. I also know that 4 of the 5 of my kin who served, did so as enlisted. As did most of those I knew in school, before and after.

While it is absolutely true that the US military in particular has offered some of the very poorest of our citizens an unparalleled opportunity for education and leadership (multiple advanced degrees) - it is not true that the main reason most people enlist is because they have no other possible opportunities.

Sure, I was never in uniform. I'm just the daughter, SIL, cousin, wife of military vets - and the one I've been married to all these years was in charge of overseeing training of enlisted troops for many years of his service as 1Sgt and CSM. I dislike these attempts to portray our military personnel as ignorant boobs who are patsies of the 'corporate elites', as the usual class warfare drivel tends to go. People are NOT simpletons nor fools for wishing to serve in the military - nor were they unimaginative or unintelligent for not attempting to evade the Vietnam era draft.

most of the people during the vietnam era that were drafted came from poorer families, as far as i could tell. i detested those who attempted to evade the draft. many of them, who were so anti-war when they were draft eligible, as soon as they were deferred, could have cared less.

i implied none of what you seem to suggest i implied. most of the people i was with were about what the average civilian population was, intelligence wise.

that middle class tradition usually comes from tthose whose ancestors came from poverty. many irish, native, and latino kids are in that category.

i enlisted in the middle of college myself. a lot of factors come into play. as far as i can tell, an e-1 today makes more than an e-1 of the vietnam era, adjusted...way, way, more.

so what were you doin in west belfast, seal??

not escapin the yankee nam draft....

IRA???? Sinn Fein?? Civil Rights Movement...SDLP??? just lookin? Tourist?

 

[kvetch]

those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war.

poverty is what turns our children's lives over to bureaucratic monsters. the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us.

While this those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war is true,that the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us. is a common misconception.

Actually, there is a strong tradition amongst the 'elite' of US and UK society of joining the military. And many families from the middle class also have a tradition of serving in the military as a form of service to the country. This goes back at least to the US Civil War, when the wealthy could legally buy their way out of service - but many did not.

I've read 'socio-economic' analyses of the casualties in the Vietnam War - and the stats do not agree with the quote above. I also know that 4 of the 5 of my kin who served, did so as enlisted. As did most of those I knew in school, before and after.

While it is absolutely true that the US military in particular has offered some of the very poorest of our citizens an unparalleled opportunity for education and leadership (multiple advanced degrees) - it is not true that the main reason most people enlist is because they have no other possible opportunities.

Sure, I was never in uniform. I'm just the daughter, SIL, cousin, wife of military vets - and the one I've been married to all these years was in charge of overseeing training of enlisted troops for many years of his service as 1Sgt and CSM. I dislike these attempts to portray our military personnel as ignorant boobs who are patsies of the 'corporate elites', as the usual class warfare drivel tends to go. People are NOT simpletons nor fools for wishing to serve in the military - nor were they unimaginative or unintelligent for not attempting to evade the Vietnam era draft.

I was born at the onset of WWII and my formative years were overwhelmed by the war. All my relatives and neighbors were involved in the wars and anyone with kith and kin kept maps with colored pins to mark the progress of their loved ones. I can't remember when I did not want to serve my country as I felt it was my duty. And so I've been serving the country to this day and I don't regret one second. My current projects are greeting returning troops at the airport USO, transporting vets from their homes to the VA clinics, donating to WWP and collecting for needy military families. Duty, Honor, Country.

hossy

so bloody sad that no yank ever read the history of afghanistan or learned anything

so many includin brits........4 times in the 19th century, the soviets etc tried and failed to occuoy those pathans................it just cannot be done

what USA did post 9/11 was highly intelligent gettin the taliban out

since then so many USA Brits and others' lives have been wasted for no reason that will last long

very very sad...dont you feel when you meet the poor bloody infantry as we call them in UK

who suffer for the fools that sent them stupidly to their fates

 

[kvetch]

There's been at least as much 'mindless pacifism' of young fools chanting 'No Blood for Oil' and other idiotic slogans.

I listened to the speeches at the so-claimed 'peace rallies' over 20 years ago, wanting to understand what my fellow citizens were so agitated about. I heard a long line of people speaking about what they hated and felt was wrong with the US: I didn't agree with very much that they claimed at all. And they seemed - EVERY LAST ONE! - to be so much more focused on how they hated this or that about the way they saw our nation, than they were on what they DID want. I heard an incredible amount of demagoguery and outright propaganda from those 'anti-war' speakers as well. And a lot of it was the selfsame rhetoric I'd heard back in the '60's and '70's, yes.

When I talked with my Mom, she'd heard an awful lot of the same talk back in the late '30's and into the '40's..... I have heard reports from older people that some similar ideas were voiced with regard to WW1.

Now, I'm not naive enough to think there'd only be propaganda on one side of any issue - but there certainly was a lot of readily-identifiable stuff coming out of these 'anti-war' speakers.

My main 'issue' remains that they were focused on negative aspects - and not a one offered anything by way of a potential alternative to going to war. That, and their continual demonizing of anyone within the government, led me to conclude their primary thought was NOT 'peace', but 'regime change' AT HOME. And by not necessarily peaceful means, either, as they glorified 'resistance' quite often.

what you notably omit in your casual denunciation of those "young fools chanting "no blood for oil" was the simple fact that they were right on the money!!!!....when everyone else was lapping up the cheesy propaganda spun out of the Bush/Cheney administration, those of us who had the balls to reject it were typically demonized in the media...very much the same way that the OWS movement was demonized. It is an astonishing doctrinal victory to actually induce the public to support issues that actually place them at a disadvantage...to this end those who dare to express dissent are excoriated irrespective of the legitimacy and relative accuracy of their message....

hunter the peaceniks were right about WW1...it was a stoopid war

wrong about WW2..that was a just war you should have been in not leaving us brits alone to fight hitler for 2 years

no blood for oil is too simple, I agree, and not accurate, either

the stupidest peace slogan i saw in hawaii during the kuwait war by our dyke sisters

READ MY LIPS; READ MY LABIA
US OUT OF SAUDI ARABIA

some times the peace niks are right; others wrong

neither you nor codgie seem able to exercise any discrimination at all

it aint black or white y'know

 

[Hossfly]

While this those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war is true,that the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us. is a common misconception.

Actually, there is a strong tradition amongst the 'elite' of US and UK society of joining the military. And many families from the middle class also have a tradition of serving in the military as a form of service to the country. This goes back at least to the US Civil War, when the wealthy could legally buy their way out of service - but many did not.

I've read 'socio-economic' analyses of the casualties in the Vietnam War - and the stats do not agree with the quote above. I also know that 4 of the 5 of my kin who served, did so as enlisted. As did most of those I knew in school, before and after.

While it is absolutely true that the US military in particular has offered some of the very poorest of our citizens an unparalleled opportunity for education and leadership (multiple advanced degrees) - it is not true that the main reason most people enlist is because they have no other possible opportunities.

Sure, I was never in uniform. I'm just the daughter, SIL, cousin, wife of military vets - and the one I've been married to all these years was in charge of overseeing training of enlisted troops for many years of his service as 1Sgt and CSM. I dislike these attempts to portray our military personnel as ignorant boobs who are patsies of the 'corporate elites', as the usual class warfare drivel tends to go. People are NOT simpletons nor fools for wishing to serve in the military - nor were they unimaginative or unintelligent for not attempting to evade the Vietnam era draft.

I was born at the onset of WWII and my formative years were overwhelmed by the war. All my relatives and neighbors were involved in the wars and anyone with kith and kin kept maps with colored pins to mark the progress of their loved ones. I can't remember when I did not want to serve my country as I felt it was my duty. And so I've been serving the country to this day and I don't regret one second. My current projects are greeting returning troops at the airport USO, transporting vets from their homes to the VA clinics, donating to WWP and collecting for needy military families. Duty, Honor, Country.

hossy

so bloody sad that no yank ever read the history of afghanistan or learned anything

so many includin brits........4 times in the 19th century, the soviets etc tried and failed to occuoy those pathans................it just cannot be done

what USA did post 9/11 was highly intelligent gettin the taliban out

since then so many USA Brits and others' lives have been wasted for no reason that will last long

very very sad...dont you feel when you meet the poor bloody infantry as we call them in UK

who suffer for the fools that sent them stupidly to their fates

You will never understand. That's your shortcoming. And misfortune.

 

[kvetch]

I was born at the onset of WWII and my formative years were overwhelmed by the war. All my relatives and neighbors were involved in the wars and anyone with kith and kin kept maps with colored pins to mark the progress of their loved ones. I can't remember when I did not want to serve my country as I felt it was my duty. And so I've been serving the country to this day and I don't regret one second. My current projects are greeting returning troops at the airport USO, transporting vets from their homes to the VA clinics, donating to WWP and collecting for needy military families. Duty, Honor, Country.

hossy

so bloody sad that no yank ever read the history of afghanistan or learned anything

so many includin brits........4 times in the 19th century, the soviets etc tried and failed to occuoy those pathans................it just cannot be done

what USA did post 9/11 was highly intelligent gettin the taliban out

since then so many USA Brits and others' lives have been wasted for no reason that will last long

very very sad...dont you feel when you meet the poor bloody infantry as we call them in UK

who suffer for the fools that sent them stupidly to their fates

You will never understand. That's your shortcoming. And misfortune.

hossy that aint good enough

every week in Uk we see coffins reurning from afghanistan

all brits feel torn with sorrow for the young men includin me

vast majority of us includin our govt know full well their lives were spent in vain

just like nam

i cant believe you dont feel the same

of course its more intense for one who has served as you have

 

[Hossfly]

predictably this has to be one of the single dumbest statements I've read yet...you seem to be locked in competition with yourself for ever greater frontiers of stupidity.....YES HOSS-FACE!!!! THE DREADED ISLAMIC HORDES ARE COMING TO ENSLAVE YOU ...LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IF I LAUGH ANY HARDER I FEAR A DOUBLE HERNIA....

Right on, unbeliever. What is the aim of Islam? When it happens I will force you to wear a pink burkha and high-heeled tennis shoes.

"when it happens"???? OWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!~! Please hoss-face...I beg you for some measure of mercy...I cannot laugh like this and maintain prime health. Does the image of me wearing a pink burkha and heels run your flag up the pole??? ....and I thought the goats were kinky....sigh

I hope the readers are keeping their fingers crossed that FEMA has the right size boxers for Skitzo here. After all, with all this sociopathic laughing he is doing, he needs to change quite often from his unfortunate accidents. How's it going in Manhattan, Skitzo? Keeping warm in the computer room of the public library?

 

[sealadaigh]

While this those who have seen the horrors of war are those who are the loudest voices against unnecessary war is true,that the blood has always been shed by the poorest among us. is a common misconception.

Actually, there is a strong tradition amongst the 'elite' of US and UK society of joining the military. And many families from the middle class also have a tradition of serving in the military as a form of service to the country. This goes back at least to the US Civil War, when the wealthy could legally buy their way out of service - but many did not.

I've read 'socio-economic' analyses of the casualties in the Vietnam War - and the stats do not agree with the quote above. I also know that 4 of the 5 of my kin who served, did so as enlisted. As did most of those I knew in school, before and after.

While it is absolutely true that the US military in particular has offered some of the very poorest of our citizens an unparalleled opportunity for education and leadership (multiple advanced degrees) - it is not true that the main reason most people enlist is because they have no other possible opportunities.

Sure, I was never in uniform. I'm just the daughter, SIL, cousin, wife of military vets - and the one I've been married to all these years was in charge of overseeing training of enlisted troops for many years of his service as 1Sgt and CSM. I dislike these attempts to portray our military personnel as ignorant boobs who are patsies of the 'corporate elites', as the usual class warfare drivel tends to go. People are NOT simpletons nor fools for wishing to serve in the military - nor were they unimaginative or unintelligent for not attempting to evade the Vietnam era draft.

most of the people during the vietnam era that were drafted came from poorer families, as far as i could tell. i detested those who attempted to evade the draft. many of them, who were so anti-war when they were draft eligible, as soon as they were deferred, could have cared less.

i implied none of what you seem to suggest i implied. most of the people i was with were about what the average civilian population was, intelligence wise.

that middle class tradition usually comes from tthose whose ancestors came from poverty. many irish, native, and latino kids are in that category.

i enlisted in the middle of college myself. a lot of factors come into play. as far as i can tell, an e-1 today makes more than an e-1 of the vietnam era, adjusted...way, way, more.

so what were you doin in west belfast, seal??

not escapin the yankee nam draft....

IRA???? Sinn Fein?? Civil Rights Movement...SDLP??? just lookin? Tourist?

i believe i answered some of these questions in the "let's deal with documented facts" thread.

two years, DEROS, early outs, troop withdrawls...

i was a tourist 'round about march, '71. no IRA to be seen then. i think they had some sort of recruiting drive sometime mid-year. called it something like demetrius. pretty successful. brought a lot of good peeps together.

no sinn fein either, for all intents and purposes. SDLP and NICRA...never heard of them much. i think NICRA was off somewhere waving hankies at the paras about a year later...early '72?

who knows?

 

[MHunterB]

Skank posted: "
what you notably omit in your casual denunciation of those "young fools chanting "no blood for oil" was the simple fact that they were right on the money!!!!....when everyone else was lapping up the cheesy propaganda spun out of the Bush/Cheney administration, those of us who had the balls to reject it were typically demonized in the media...very much the same way that the OWS movement was demonized. It is an astonishing doctrinal victory to actually induce the public to support issues that actually place them at a disadvantage...to this end those who dare to express dissent are excoriated irrespective of the legitimacy and relative accuracy of their message...."


Several observations here:

1) Stating that 'no blood for oil' was "right on the money" is nowhere near providing a shred of evidence to suggest it was so. (I called 'em fools because it was NOT so. The biggest oil & gas producer in the next couple of decades will be the US - we do not need that oil, never did I can explain more: my Dad worked in that industry for over 40 years)

2) I specifically stated that there was propaganda on both sides. 'International ANSWER' certainly was not purely a 'peace' group nor without an agenda of its own. If the 'Tea Party' can be slammed for its white-sheet and swastika contingent - then so can OWS for its own hammer and sickle crew. One's no better than the other.

3) My argument was clearly NOT with their 'expressing dissent': it was with their near-total LACK of any alternative presentation. The US has lots of problems - but for the most part it only looks so bad if one is squinting while 'examining' the "competition"

4) I realize that the 'protesters' just love to think of themselves as 'braver' and or/'more moral' than anyone else - but compared to protesters in Iran, Iraq or Afghanistan, just to name a few!, they were hardly in any real physical danger. Not to mention that it's much more difficult to participate in demonstrations for days on end when one has an obligation to be in a workplace and do a job.

 

[MHunterB]

"most of the people during the vietnam era that were drafted came from poorer families, as far as i could tell. i detested those who attempted to evade the draft. many of them, who were so anti-war when they were draft eligible, as soon as they were deferred, could have cared less."

My husband AND his two brothers of similar age were each drafted. Their family was hardly 'poor' by any standards short of a millionaire's (PhD Chemist Dad worked for a large 'blue chip' chem company). Two did serve, one exempted for medical reasons (3 times).

I can only agree with you about the draft dodgers.


i implied none of what you seem to suggest i implied. most of the people i was with were about what the average civilian population was, intelligence wise.

I didn't mean to suggest that you per se had implied that. Very many effete 'liberal intellectuals' can and do imply and state such things outright. My husband and his brothers, like their Phi Beta Kappa parents, test 'in MENSA territory' (150+) and are far, far from 'average' by virtually any measurement except clothing sizes.

that middle class tradition usually comes from tthose whose ancestors came from poverty. many irish, native, and latino kids are in that category.

That's another subjective impression. Virtually everyone who went through the Depression was impoverished, lol! My husband's kin were 'gentleman farmers' who in the '30's and '40
's were sending their daughters to college. But the people to whom the military presented an unparalleled opportunity were like a couple officers we knew: one was a sharecropper's son who got his first pair of new shoes from the Army and collected all the education he could. Another grew up living 'Angela's Ashes' only in Brooklyn - and went to med school care of the military. Neither of those gents was near 'average' - though such stories are far from rare.

i enlisted in the middle of college myself. a lot of factors come into play. as far as i can tell, an e-1 today makes more than an e-1 of the vietnam era, adjusted...way, way, more.

But a person's only an E-1 through Basic.....or if they get busted down to that for selling off the food from the recruit's mess hall! When DH was serving in the Gulf, our military pay (E-8/over 16?) was only 2/3 of his nice civilian salary. It was tolerable, just barely, even with the tax-free status. He retired as an E-9/>30 which would be something like $72K/year as a full-time SALARY these days (NOT including the BAQ, which is probably another $1K/month)

By contrast, as an E-4/>2 we were making $7 too much per month to qualify for food stamps in Hawai'i about 35 years ago (but it was worth it to be there!!!!!)