Zone1 A Question For Pro-Choicers

[ding]

Pretty bold statement considering we don't know of any other self aware beings it produced in its 13+ billion year history.

It's just statistics. SETI exists for logical reasons.

 

[ding]

Solar wind, photons, neutrinos, cosmic rays, etc.

Can you explain to me where they came from if you don't believe they are products of the creation of space and time. Because everything you mentioned isn't new energy/matter that had it's own special created into existence from nothing moment.

 

[alang1216]

It's not an insult. It's a statement of fact. For you to deny that consciousness did indeed involve and continues to evolve is to deny evolution itself. Consciousness did indeed involve unless of course you belief life went from non-self aware single cell organisms to highly complex, self aware beings magically. Apparently this was beyond your level to comprehend. Because if you did comprehend it then it would be much simpler to see that everything continues to evolve. All aspects of evolution; stellar, chemical and biological continue to evolve. Consciousness is most certainly a stage of the evolution of space and time. The most important one. It's when the universe literally became self aware. So for you to fail to acknowledge this self evident fact can only be because it is beyond your ability to comprehend it. So it wasn't an insult. It was a factual statement.

You do realize that you've entirely changed the discussion don't you? You started by claiming that MY consciousness evolves and now you're saying life has evolved consciousness. I agree with the latter but that is not where you started.

Stars go through cycles of birth and death I wouldn't call that evolution since there are no external forces influencing the process. It is also misleading to say the 'universe literally became self aware' when only a miniscule part of it, namely us or creatures like us, evolved self-awareness. The universe itself is blissfully unaware of itself except for the influence of natural forces like gravity.

 

[alang1216]

Can you explain to me where they came from if you don't believe they are products of the creation of space and time. Because everything you mentioned isn't new energy/matter that had it's own special created into existence from nothing moment.

Again you change the discussion. You started with particles, if you now say matter and energy or more accurately fields, well they are the universe and they are products of the BB. Their field form has changed since the BB, particles to energy and energy to particles.

 

[ding]

You do realize that you've entirely changed the discussion don't you? You started by claiming that MY consciousness evolves and now you're saying life has evolved consciousness. I agree with the latter but that is not where you started.

Stars go through cycles of birth and death I wouldn't call that evolution since there are no external forces influencing the process. It is also misleading to say the 'universe literally became self aware' when only a miniscule part of it, namely us or creatures like us, evolved self-awareness. The universe itself is blissfully unaware of itself except for the influence of natural forces like gravity.

I suggest you go back to the first post you replied to concerning evolution. I don't think I could have spelled it out any clearer.

@alang1216

Evolution and God are not mutually exclusive. Evolution is anything which moves from a lower state to a higher state; a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. There have been 5 stages of evolution of space and time; cosmic evolution, stellar evolution, chemical evolution, biological evolution and evolution of consciousness.

In his book, "The Phenomenon of Man" Pierre Teilhard de Chardin describes evolution as a process that leads to increasing complexity, culminating in a Christ consciousness. He limited his observations to biological evolution but the same observation can be made about all stages of the evolution of space and time. The complexification of matter increased until it naturally and logically made the leap to the next stage. The last and final stage of evolution of space and time is consciousness. So it seems logical that consciousness would also increase in complexity until it to made the leap to the next stage which Chardin describes as Christ consciousness.

1. The universe began as a soup of subatomic particles and radiation and naturally and logically complexified into hydrogen and helium. This is what is called the cosmic stage of the evolution of space and time.
2. Hydrogen and helium then naturally and logically complexified into structures like stars and galaxies. This is what is called the stellar stage of the evolution of space and time.
3. From the life cycle of galaxies and stars all of the other elements and compounds were naturally and logically formed. This is what is called the chemical stage of the evolution of space and time.
4. As chemical evolution naturally and logically complexified the leap to biological life was made. This is what is called the biological stage of the evolution of space and time.
5. As life logically and naturally evolved and complexified the leap to consciousness was made. This is what is called the conscious stage of of the evolution of space and time.

So we can see that each successive stage of the evolution of space and time complexified until it made the leap to the next stage. And it did so naturally and logically. So Chardin's assumption that consciousness will make the leap to a Christ consciousness is logical because it presumes that consciousness will evolve and complexify and make the leap to the next level because every other stage of the evolution of space and time did so too before it.

 

[ding]

You do realize that you've entirely changed the discussion don't you? You started by claiming that MY consciousness evolves and now you're saying life has evolved consciousness. I agree with the latter but that is not where you started.

Stars go through cycles of birth and death I wouldn't call that evolution since there are no external forces influencing the process. It is also misleading to say the 'universe literally became self aware' when only a miniscule part of it, namely us or creatures like us, evolved self-awareness. The universe itself is blissfully unaware of itself except for the influence of natural forces like gravity.

Does that mean you do agree that consciousness evolved? Because if so, then it goes to reason that consciousness continues to evolve, correct?

 

[ding]

Stars go through cycles of birth and death I wouldn't call that evolution since there are no external forces influencing the process.

Probably because you have a very narrow view of evolution. But evolution basically means to change. The universe was created - not from pre-existing matter - and has been evolving (i.e. changing) ever since and that would include all matter and energy that was created at the beginning of time.

 

[ding]

Again you change the discussion. You started with particles, if you now say matter and energy or more accurately fields, well they are the universe and they are products of the BB. Their field form has changed since the BB, particles to energy and energy to particles.

Everything is energy. Particles, matter, waves, fields, etc. The equation E=mc^2 literally gives us the conversion from matter to energy. All energy/matter was created at the beginning of time or as we call it, the big bang.

So I have been perfectly consistent with what I have been saying. It is you who does not understand this science and made the incorrect leap that solar wind, photons, neutrinos, cosmic rays, etc. were not products of the creation of the universe but were created specially unto themselves. Everything in the universe was created 14 billion years ago. Since then it has merely changed form.

 

[alang1216]

I suggest you go back to the first post you replied to concerning evolution. I don't think I could have spelled it out any clearer.

I have no trouble with 'naturally' but, at least to me, logic requires intelligence and I don't see the universe as intelligent. If not for the Permian extinction, dinosaurs may never have dominated. If not for the K-T comet, the mammals may never have dominated. It seems logic does not require chance.

 

[alang1216]

Does that mean you do agree that consciousness evolved? Because if so, then it goes to reason that consciousness continues to evolve, correct?

You confused me because you originally implied my consciousness evolved, not human consciousness. I don't know the future of consciousness since I don't know if there is still selection pressure to drive it. Personally, I doubt it since it is human culture that now evolves, not human biology.

 

[alang1216]

Probably because you have a very narrow view of evolution. But evolution basically means to change.

When it gets cold, does water evolve into ice?

The universe was created - not from pre-existing matter - and has been evolving (i.e. changing) ever since and that would include all matter and energy that was created at the beginning of time.

I don't know how our universe was created so I can't agree or disagree.

 

[alang1216]

Everything is energy. Particles, matter, waves, fields, etc. The equation E=mc^2 literally gives us the conversion from matter to energy. All energy/matter was created at the beginning of time or as we call it, the big bang.

So I have been perfectly consistent with what I have been saying. It is you who does not understand this science and made the incorrect leap that solar wind, photons, neutrinos, cosmic rays, etc. were not products of the creation of the universe but were created specially unto themselves. Everything in the universe was created 14 billion years ago. Since then it has merely changed form.

Except that is not what you wrote, you specifically mentioned particles, not energy. You can convert one to the other but they are still different things.

 

[ding]

Except that is not what you wrote, you specifically mentioned particles, not energy. You can convert one to the other but they are still different things.

They aren't though. Everything began as matter and anti matter sub atomic particles. Nothing new has been created since the big bang. So when you said new particles are being created that is wrong.

 

[ding]

I don't know how our universe was created so I can't agree or disagree.

Which is probably why you should be asking questions instead of making statements like "it [the big bang] didn't create every particle we see today so not every particle was entangled at one time."

 

[ding]

When it gets cold, does water evolve into ice?

No. It has a phase change. It's molecular structure is still H2O. And this proves absolutely nothing at all. Again... you have a very narrow view of evolution. It seems intentionally so because apparently it offends your worldview. Apparently you must see space and time evolving as confirmation of a creator. Because I can't see any logical reason for you to deny the obvious. Especially after the stages of the evolution of space and time was was explained in detail to you and you refuted none of the stages or steps.

 

[ding]

You confused me because you originally implied my consciousness evolved, not human consciousness. I don't know the future of consciousness since I don't know if there is still selection pressure to drive it. Personally, I doubt it since it is human culture that now evolves, not human biology.

We were never discussing YOUR consciousness. Your consciousness was only used as an example.

But you still didn't answer my question. Did consciousness evolve in living things? Because that's pretty undeniable even for you. So if you accept that then you must also accept it will continue to evolve just as aspects of all life continues to evolve.

 

[ding]

I have no trouble with 'naturally' but, at least to me, logic requires intelligence and I don't see the universe as intelligent. If not for the Permian extinction, dinosaurs may never have dominated. If not for the K-T comet, the mammals may never have dominated. It seems logic does not require chance.

You are part of the universe. Are you not intelligent?

Yes, logic does require intelligence. That's my point. We live in a logical universe where every effect had a cause and where rules and information are abundant.

Life cannot be contained it will always strive to reach its potential. You seem to think potentiality being attained is an accident. It's not. If something has potential to happen it will. It is only a matter of conditions and time. Intelligence is literally written into the laws of nature and the fabric of existence.

 

[dblack]

If something has potential to happen it will.

Exactly. This is my retort to creationists.

 

[ding]

Exactly. This is my retort to creationists.

I am not a creationist. But I do believe this is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so.

 

[peacefan]

So you advocate killing the poor?

Damn!

don't twist my words!