A serious question about Jewish history

[SAYIT]

And...............one of the main reasons (IMHO) that Muslims hate Jews is because Abraham kicked Hagar and Ishmael out of his tribe because Sarah told him that Issac was supposed to be the next leader of the tribe due to the fact that Ishmael (the older of the two) was born from a handmaiden for Sarah, and not his first wife.

Muslims have always treated Jews very well compared with the way Christians have treated them. Do not mix religion up with reactions to the nazi occupation of Palestine and its child-killing. There is nothing 'Jewish' about racist killers, though the zionist propaganda machine is working full out to equate decency with anti-semitism, as you might expect from disciples of the Great Leader.

There was no Nazi occupation of Palestine.

 

[Indofred]

The hatred towards the Jews throughout history didn't happen in a vacuum.

It was a product of cause and effect.

Obviously something about the jews demeanor or behavior brought out intense animosity towards them..........

Must be. I know everytime I see a woman walking down the street unescorted by male family members I think she deserves to be raped.

I dislike your post but dislike Sunni's more.
Something must have caused all of these events but my early seaches suggests at least some were nothing to do with anything the Jews of the time did wrong.
Frankly, I was expecting to find bad deeds but I have not when looking at the first event.

That suggests it was purely a church led attack, not a popular fear or hatred of those Jews.

Lots more events to go at and they may have different stories.

I suggest posters actually look at the evidence regarding each event and post it, not make blind, uneducated clsims with nothing to back them up.
I see both sides doing the same. They seem to want to hate more than they want to learn.

Are you so scared you may be wrong, you'll have to stop hating each other?

 

[Indofred]

Because:
a - Muslims don't hate Jews; some Muslims hate Jews
b - It's nothing to do with the thread

What has been suggested, many times, is Jews are targeted because of stereotypes about them getting rich off the misery of the general population.

BBC News - Payday lenders told to improve by OFT

"Payday lenders" provide a service to those who can't get loans elsewhere but provide a 'service' that is highly unpopular.

If enough members of the Jewish groups (before any given historical event) were engaged in this sort of work, it may well explain where the majority were targeted.
Add the suggestions, Jews lived in enclaves, looked different and dressed differently to the local majority and we have a hypothesis.



That may well hold some truth but, for that to be a total explanation, all other minority in similar positions must be proven to have the same problems.

I know Gypsies have been far less than popular for a very long time but have they had an equal number of problems, pro rata?

Gypsies: A Persecuted Race : Center for Holocaust & Genocide Studies : University of Minnesota

Seems there may be a simple explanation as far as the interaction between non Christians and the Christian church goes.

So we have a theory in progress as far as Christian areas go.
The church was clearly very powerful so, if the established church didn't like you, you were basically buggered.

Question is, can we prove or disprove this theory with research into the subject?

Sunni has a deep hatred for Jews, it's obvious by his posts. He probably wishes he were one, instead of what he is (if I post what he is, I'll inexplicably get banned, go figure).
Loan sharking isn't exceptional to the Jews either. But if you're looking for a separate reason for the Jews as a minority and why they got hosed so many times, it's probably because they are a racist minority, very closed to gentiles. And as a racist minority, that can rub a majority the wrong way, especially when the majority is trying to be racist towards a minority that is thumbing their own racist noses at them.

I'm going to tell you why Jews have separated themselves within host countries.
1) Going to synagogue was only done on foot.
2) Jewish learning meant being near the schools
3) Maintaining the kosher laws required access to a kosher butcher and a centralized place one could acquire kosher foods.
4) Many communities "ghettoized" their Jews, forcing them to live together while restricting mainstream opportunities. Those restrictions along with the rigors of Jewish studies meant many Jews were poor making them a target of Gentile hate and scorn.
Harsh conditions were imposed upon them and then blame was placed on them for the conditions in which they lived. Some still blame them.

Potential for interest there.
Was this a factor in any of the events listed in my OP?
Links please.

 

[SAYIT]

The hatred towards the Jews throughout history didn't happen in a vacuum.

It was a product of cause and effect.

Obviously something about the jews demeanor or behavior brought out intense animosity towards them..........

Must be. I know everytime I see a woman walking down the street unescorted by male family members I think she deserves to be raped.

I dislike your post but dislike Sunni's more.
Something must have caused all of these events but my early seaches suggests at least some were nothing to do with anything the Jews of the time did wrong.
Frankly, I was expecting to find bad deeds but I have not when looking at the first event.

That suggests it was purely a church led attack, not a popular fear or hatred of those Jews.

Lots more events to go at and they may have different stories.

You were expecting to find bad deeds? Seems to me you started your search for "truth" with pre-conceived ideas.

 

[The Irish Ram]

And...............one of the main reasons (IMHO) that Muslims hate Jews is because Abraham kicked Hagar and Ishmael out of his tribe because Sarah told him that Issac was supposed to be the next leader of the tribe due to the fact that Ishmael (the older of the two) was born from a handmaiden for Sarah, and not his first wife.

Muslims have always treated Jews very well compared with the way Christians have treated them. Do not mix religion up with reactions to the nazi occupation of Palestine and its child-killing. There is nothing 'Jewish' about racist killers, though the zionist propaganda machine is working full out to equate decency with anti-semitism, as you might expect from disciples of the Great Leader.

There was no Nazi occupation of Palestine.

ABS hit the nail on the head. And God's prophesy about Ishmael being a wild ass whose hand would be against everyone, was never more apparent than now.
The only thing that the Muslims hate more than each other is the Jew. And us.

 

[Indofred]

You were expecting to find bad deeds? Seems to me you started your search for "truth" with pre-conceived ideas.

Yes, and I was wrong.

All the stuff I read on various forums tends to mention money lending and various other unpopular occupations. I fully expected to find these as factors in many or most of the events on the list.
I'm still on the first event but there is nothing to suggest this was true as far as that case went.
The only references to this are on unreliable, extremist white power sites and they provide no evidence to back up their claims so must be discounted.

I was wrong.

 

[Indofred]

I've gone as far as I can on the first event so I'm making a start on number 2, 224 C.E. Italy Forced Conversion.

 

[Indofred]

My, gawd, searching this stuff out is like wading through treacle.

White power sites are easily the worst for posting total rubbish but a few Muslim sites are pretty crap as well.
Searching the pro Jewish sites is almost as bad because they just claim everything is down to people who hate Jews but never explore the reasons why.

Has no one ever bothered to look at this issue?

 

[Saigon]

One thing that is often overlooked is that Jews are not the only people who are resented for their education, wealth and onften inward-focused culture - it's just the one most evident in Europe.

But Armenians, Tutsi, Mestizo South Americans...even Ethiopians have their share of detractors, and for much the same reasons as Jews. Any sense that one group of people are acting as an elite, and they will be attacked.

 

[Indofred]

The second event occurred in AD 224.
So far, I have little but it was pre-Constantine and pre the Christian period in Italy so that's less likely to be a major factor.
Jews, along with everyone else in Roman occupied lands, were granted Roman citizenship in AD 212.

The gospel by Matthew had blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus and a few other bits and bobs that were likely to really bug the new Christians.
However, just 10 years after that, a ruddy great big synagogue was built; that suggests no official discrimination as such.
However, my first exploration suggests, Jews were seen as backwards and weren't very welcome but were not actually bothered with.
Jewish slaves were taken to Rome after various cities fell to Roman troops but this seems to have been pretty much normal for every defeated city, not just Jewish ones.
There also seems to be some diplomatic relationship but that's disputed.
Jews seem to have been very actively proselytising Romans to their faith and seem to have been quite successful.
Vespasian seems to have been a bit anti but that was probably due to his battles in Jewish areas and a couple of Jewish revolts against Roman occupation.
Still nothing to explain the forced conversion and what exactly they were converted to.
I'll have to look at the rise of Christian power in the country but it's starting to look like that may be the thing.
There is no argument about Constantine's anti Jewish rule but what went before him and how much power was in the hands of the early church?

 

[Indofred]

One thing that is often overlooked is that Jews are not the only people who are resented for their education, wealth and onften inward-focused culture - it's just the one most evident in Europe.

But Armenians, Tutsi, Mestizo South Americans...even Ethiopians have their share of detractors, and for much the same reasons as Jews. Any sense that one group of people are acting as an elite, and they will be attacked.

A reasonable theory but the ancient events I'm looking at are clouded in time and a lot of biased sites, all claiming to have the truth all sorted out but none offering any evidence of any sort.
It's clear, there was a reasonable size Jewish community in Italy at the time of the second event but there is nothing so far to suggest those people lived in the manner you suggest.

 

[Indofred]

This BBC site suggests the early Christians were pretty much dog food as Nero looked for a nice scapegoat to blame for the fires and divert attention from his musical inabilities.

I'm finding a lot of stuff that says, Romans were seriously anti circumcision, considering it an attack on mankind. Seems slaves who were forced into this were considered to be free men by many Romans.
This seems to have been a major issue of the time.

 

[ima]

On topic

Much of the anti-semitism has come, and comes today from muslims.

That cannot be denied.

So far I can't figure out why (jealousy perhaps?), so let's call it illogical, shall we?

Back on topic:

muslims are the most anti-semetic group in all of history.

Now THAT'S a fact.

When you accuse, you must prove what you say is true.
My first post gave a list of serious events. I'm still working on the first one so I don't have enough evidence to say either way.

I suggest, people knowing how right they are without bothering to check is the cause of most of the hate in history.

You have the list so post your research and prove your position.

You and sunni are muslims, you should know best, why don't you two just confirm it for us?

 

[ima]

This BBC site suggests the early Christians were pretty much dog food as Nero looked for a nice scapegoat to blame for the fires and divert attention from his musical inabilities.

I'm finding a lot of stuff that says, Romans were seriously anti circumcision, considering it an attack on mankind. Seems slaves who were forced into this were considered to be free men by many Romans.
This seems to have been a major issue of the time.

This is a serious thread about Jewish history. Please stay on topic.

 

[Sunni Man]

ABS hit the nail on the head. And God's prophesy about Ishmael being a wild ass whose hand would be against everyone, was never more apparent than now.
The only thing that the Muslims hate more than each other is the Jew. And us.

XXXXXXX

Here is the verse:

Genesis 16:12 "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

1) The prophecy only talks about Ishmael and says nothing about his children, grandchildren, or descendants.....just him.

2) It says nothing about muslims.

3) Only 25% of muslims in the world are arabs.....who are descends of Ishmael.

Yet, you take that verse in Genesis and apply it to all muslims of today......asians, africans, and other people; who have no connections to the middle east or arabs.

Very dishonest...........

 

[ima]

ABS hit the nail on the head. And God's prophesy about Ishmael being a wild ass whose hand would be against everyone, was never more apparent than now.
The only thing that the Muslims hate more than each other is the Jew. And us.

Here is the verse:

Genesis 16:12 "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

1) The prophecy only talks about Ishmael and says nothing about his children, grandchildren, or descendants.....just him.

2) It says nothing about muslims.

3) Only 25% of muslims in the world are arabs.....who are descends of Ishmael.

Yet, you take that verse in Genesis and apply it to all muslims of today......asians, africans, and other people; who have no connections to the middle east or arabs.

Very dishonest...........

The immense hatred of the Jews began in the time of Mohammed, by Mohammed, and it is alleged that Allah gave the command. The Qur’an, the hadiths, and the events in Mohammed’s life will explain the hatred that began with Mohammed and continued in his followers to this day.

1. The Qur’anic data

Q. 5:60 Say (O Muhammad to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped Taghut (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hellfire), and far more astray from the Right Path."

This quote is in contradiction to the verses quoted below from the Bible about the Jews as God’s chosen people. Did not Allah “remember” what he told Abraham and others? There seems to be a lot of self-serving comments in the Qur’an that reveal Mohammed’s hatred of the Jews in his area rather than the words of Yahweh.

One must understand that the Jewish rejection of the prophethood of Mohammed deeply affected him. Mohammed wanted to be accepted as a prophet and his pride could not stand the rejection.

Q. 2:61 “And when ye said: O Moses! We are weary of one kind of food; so call upon thy Lord for us that He bring forth for us of that which the earth groweth - of its herbs and its cucumbers and its corn and its lentils and its onions. He said: Would ye exchange that which is higher for that which is lower? Go down to settled country, thus ye shall get that which ye demand. And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression.”

 

[Sunni Man]

XXXXXXX

The expulsions and pogroms against jews historically took place in Europe by christians

And had nothing to do with muslims.

 

[ima]

XXXXXXX

The expulsions and pogroms against jews historically took place in Europe by christians

And had nothing to do with muslims.

So are you saying that muslims are whiter than snow when it comes to anti-semitism?

 

[Sunni Man]

I am saying that anti-semitism was well established and a part of european culture centuries before Muhammad was born or there were any muslims.

Since the OP has basically asked for the root cause of hatred towards the jews.

Then we must look at christian europe and not arabia.........

 

[ima]

I am saying that anti-semitism was well established and a part of european culture centuries before Muhammad was born or there were any muslims.

Since the OP has basically asked for the root cause of hatred towards the jews.

Then we must look at christian europe and not arabia.........

"So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?"
Which also includes the Middle East. And Mohammed was the source of muslim hatred towards Jews. You can't escape the fact that muslims are the biggest jew haters around today. And that hatred can be traced to your Prophet Mohammed, a sick pervert who married a 9 year old girl.
Other groups throughout history have had issues with Jews, no argument here about that, but the other groups have been able to realize that it's not to hate minorities, except for muslims, who continue to this day to harass and abuse Jews, among other minorities/infidels that they want to kill.