A very serious thread about race relations

[Divine Wind]

Is there anyone here, or does anyone here know of anyone, who wants to see race relations improve?

No, I don't mean "beat" the other "side". No, I don't mean punishing the other side for their opinions. No, I'm not talking about the political angles, particularly pointing the finger and blaming the other guy.

I mean, is anyone aware of anyone whose top priority is better, more open, more positive, more civil, more constructive, more fruitful human relationships between the races?

Dead serious question. Examples would be great. Links would be great.
.

I know people talk about it, but "top priority"? No. There are a lot bigger problems in the world besides trying to legislate stupid people (AKA racist dimwits).

Scientifically, it would be interesting to know why some people feel skin tone is such a big deal. Most of our differences are cultural, not genetic. Genetically, we're 99.5-99.9% alike. Skin tone, eye and hair color are simply superficial differences. Culturally, we can be as different as night and day. Consider the "Death Culture" of the Palestinians versus the culture of those who are willing to die rather than harm another person?

My guess is that humans are tribal in nature and feel more comfortable when they belong to a group.

So as it pertains to politics, we "pick" a "side" and run with it, spinning & deflecting & attacking for our "side" because we want to belong.

I know that sounds simplistic, but sometimes the simple answer is the right one.
.

Agreed on "tribal nature". As Desmond Morris wrote in his famous book, We're still just "naked apes" at our most basic.

While you are certainly correct about some people picking sides for a sense of belonging, the one's we're most familiar here are on the fringe; ardent partisans who put their backs to the wall and call anyone who opposes them names or their enemy. Forums are a safe place for them because if they did this IRL, they'd get their asses kicked on a regular basis.

What's worrying me is that - at least anecdotally - I'm seeing more and more of this behavior in "real life". People who, in regular conversation, are ready to launch off into some canned tirade against the other "side". With real anger.

I hope what I'm detecting is incorrect, that's for damn sure.
.

It's a phase. They're acting just like our leaders, celebrities and the talking heads on television. The louder others talk, the louder a person might shout in order to be heard. After a few more shootings and mass murders, most people will come to their senses. It's a natural cycle.

All you really need to worry about is not being caught in one of those demonstrations where people are most likely to end up on the news....or the morgue.

 

[Correll]

...and yet, you parrot the same exact same talking points as thousands of other old white men who consider themselves to be "above" racism, but think that everything was just fine back before black people started whining about how much it sucks for them.

I'm an old white man. White as the driven snow. All four grandparents emigrated from Norway or Democrat after the turn of the last century. I was born on an Army post during WW-II. My Mom moved back to Chicago after my Ol' Man shipped out to France in July 1944. He joined us in Chicago after 2 years in a military hospital in Texas. We lived in my grandparent's apartment building until we moved to Miami when I was nine. One of my three best friends was Asian, one was half Native American and one was like me. I never met a black person. I had seen black men, they delivered the coal for the apartments and they picked up the garbage in the alley.

I met my first black person when we arrived in Miami. That would have been our maid. In Miami, Homestead actually, I attended all white schools. Public water fountains were indeed labeled and our doctor had two waiting rooms. One labeled White and the other Colored. My senior year in high school was immediately after schools were integrated. We were a brand new school and it had been all white since the day it opened. We had a student body of about 1,500 students. That last year we were considered to be integrated. We had two black students.

Roll the calendar forward until 1974 when I went into real estate profession. One of my first sales was to a mixed couple, very rare at the time, who had been referred to me by a Lt. Com. whom I had sold a house to the previous year. He was head of the ROTC at FA&M University. In the 1980's since no one else wanted to teach such a complex issue with so many difficult questions, I began teaching Fair Housing for our local assn's orientation. I went on to get my instructors license and I auditioned for and began teaching 3 and 4 hour Fair Housing courses for our state association. When it came out, I auditioned for and began teaching a Diversity Course for our National Association traveling all across the U.S. and all over Florida. I was one of the best in Florida and the nation.

Like all other stereotypes, I don't fit the mold. Go figure.

That seems very nice. Do you want a cookie?

I didn't call you a racist, but thanks for the defense.

Great post, if you were trying to be dismissive and insulting.


Now, if he insults you back, will you get on your high horse?

 

[ricechickie]

Is there anyone here, or does anyone here know of anyone, who wants to see race relations improve?

No, I don't mean "beat" the other "side". No, I don't mean punishing the other side for their opinions. No, I'm not talking about the political angles, particularly pointing the finger and blaming the other guy.

I mean, is anyone aware of anyone whose top priority is better, more open, more positive, more civil, more constructive, more fruitful human relationships between the races?

Dead serious question. Examples would be great. Links would be great.
.

Yeah, I am interested. I don't know how to implement something on a wide scale. I only know what I've tried to do:

1. Meet many different kinds of people, make friends, listen to their experiences.

2. Look for common ground over differences.

3. Be a good neighbor.

4. Assume the best in individuals until they prove you wrong.

5. Stop putting expectations on people based on their race, religion, sexuality....

Well in general, that would be my approach too.

Screaming & shouting & attacking & insulting are not going to do it. It's lazy and cowardly, and it only makes things worse.

We have to do the hard work of communicating. Of expecting people with whom we agree to be honest and look in the mirror, expecting our "side" hold up its end of the bargain too. We have to admit that both ends of this argument have to clean their own house before pointing the finger.

But look at this thread, for example. Are you seeing any of that?
.

Oh, I don't know. This is more civil than the dreck that usually ends up in the Race forum.....

This thread seems pretty representative of the national "conversation" (ha) to me, you don't think so?
.

Yeah, but it's better than most USMB race discussions.

 

[Mac1958]

Is there anyone here, or does anyone here know of anyone, who wants to see race relations improve?

No, I don't mean "beat" the other "side". No, I don't mean punishing the other side for their opinions. No, I'm not talking about the political angles, particularly pointing the finger and blaming the other guy.

I mean, is anyone aware of anyone whose top priority is better, more open, more positive, more civil, more constructive, more fruitful human relationships between the races?

Dead serious question. Examples would be great. Links would be great.
.

I know people talk about it, but "top priority"? No. There are a lot bigger problems in the world besides trying to legislate stupid people (AKA racist dimwits).

Scientifically, it would be interesting to know why some people feel skin tone is such a big deal. Most of our differences are cultural, not genetic. Genetically, we're 99.5-99.9% alike. Skin tone, eye and hair color are simply superficial differences. Culturally, we can be as different as night and day. Consider the "Death Culture" of the Palestinians versus the culture of those who are willing to die rather than harm another person?

My guess is that humans are tribal in nature and feel more comfortable when they belong to a group.

So as it pertains to politics, we "pick" a "side" and run with it, spinning & deflecting & attacking for our "side" because we want to belong.

I know that sounds simplistic, but sometimes the simple answer is the right one.
.

Agreed on "tribal nature". As Desmond Morris wrote in his famous book, We're still just "naked apes" at our most basic.

While you are certainly correct about some people picking sides for a sense of belonging, the one's we're most familiar here are on the fringe; ardent partisans who put their backs to the wall and call anyone who opposes them names or their enemy. Forums are a safe place for them because if they did this IRL, they'd get their asses kicked on a regular basis.

What's worrying me is that - at least anecdotally - I'm seeing more and more of this behavior in "real life". People who, in regular conversation, are ready to launch off into some canned tirade against the other "side". With real anger.

I hope what I'm detecting is incorrect, that's for damn sure.
.

It's a phase. They're acting just like our leaders, celebrities and the talking heads on television. The louder others talk, the louder a person might shout in order to be heard. After a few more shootings and mass murders, most people will come to their senses. It's a natural cycle.

I do hope you're right.
.

 

[Divine Wind]

...and yet, you parrot the same exact same talking points as thousands of other old white men who consider themselves to be "above" racism, but think that everything was just fine back before black people started whining about how much it sucks for them.

I'm an old white man. White as the driven snow. All four grandparents emigrated from Norway or Democrat after the turn of the last century. I was born on an Army post during WW-II. My Mom moved back to Chicago after my Ol' Man shipped out to France in July 1944. He joined us in Chicago after 2 years in a military hospital in Texas. We lived in my grandparent's apartment building until we moved to Miami when I was nine. One of my three best friends was Asian, one was half Native American and one was like me. I never met a black person. I had seen black men, they delivered the coal for the apartments and they picked up the garbage in the alley.

I met my first black person when we arrived in Miami. That would have been our maid. In Miami, Homestead actually, I attended all white schools. Public water fountains were indeed labeled and our doctor had two waiting rooms. One labeled White and the other Colored. My senior year in high school was immediately after schools were integrated. We were a brand new school and it had been all white since the day it opened. We had a student body of about 1,500 students. That last year we were considered to be integrated. We had two black students.

Roll the calendar forward until 1974 when I went into real estate profession. One of my first sales was to a mixed couple, very rare at the time, who had been referred to me by a Lt. Com. whom I had sold a house to the previous year. He was head of the ROTC at FA&M University. In the 1980's since no one else wanted to teach such a complex issue with so many difficult questions, I began teaching Fair Housing for our local assn's orientation. I went on to get my instructors license and I auditioned for and began teaching 3 and 4 hour Fair Housing courses for our state association. When it came out, I auditioned for and began teaching a Diversity Course for our National Association traveling all across the U.S. and all over Florida. I was one of the best in Florida and the nation.

Like all other stereotypes, I don't fit the mold. Go figure.

That seems very nice. Do you want a cookie?

I didn't call you a racist, but thanks for the defense.

Great post, if you were trying to be dismissive and insulting.


Now, if he insults you back, will you get on your high horse?

LOL. Funny, but in all fairness, Doc and Dogmaphobe were going cats and dogs first.

 

[ricechickie]

I do not think many black people are looking for improved race relations. I think we are simply looking to be RESPECTED, which blacks have never been in this country. From respect comes improved relationships.

I don't mean to make a trite response. But, respect has to be earned.

And it is earned by proving we deserve it. Showing we've worked hard to educate ourselves, maintaining and doing a good job, showing that we are honest and trustworthy, treating others with respect, and so on. There is no magic to it.

Except, that simply "demanding" respect, or acting tough, is stupid; it doesn't work. And it shouldn't. Again: respect has to be earned. Then, respect will be given, and it will be genuine.

The "respect" random people or casual acquaintances want is usually "common courtesy" or "manners." I don't think we are talking about the kind of respect that is earned. We are talking about how you speak to someone, your tone and your words and your body language. I'm sure there are exceptions, but The Golden Rule has served me well.

If I need to rant or vent, that's what political message boards are for lol.

I agree with everyting you've written. Of course people should treat other people with simple respect. In casual meetings, etc. That's just part of having decent manners and knowing how to conduct ourselves around others.

In my earlier post I was talking about the kind of serious respect that people often yearn for. That kind of respect has to be earned.

But you can't go around rioting and looting and expect anyone to respect you. It's not gonna happen. All that will accomplish is to convince decent people that they should move as far as possible from you.

Who are you talking to? Who is doing the rioting and looting?

Maybe you didn't mean to, but you seem to be accusing people of rioting and looting, and witholding respect until they can prove their innocence in such activity.

When you wrote "you," who was your intended audience?

 

[Correll]

Holy crap, that goes against all my impulses, but I'm open to anything at this point.

Let's not forget that it's Identity Politics, the division of people, that has so many (including myself) at odds with the Left.

Maybe the author might argue that it would depend on the way it's done. If it's done in a combative, divisive way, it simply can't work, because that's what got us here. If there's a way to do it in a civil, cooperate way, then maybe. Of course it takes two to tango...
.

Step one would debunking the idea that it is taboo to even talk about whites as a group, with a culture and interests of their own.

Otherwise, it just degenerates into the same old same old.

Yes, agreed, but there should be a Step One for each side of this argument. That's how effective communication works. For example, Step One could be (a) to reject any notion that criticism of blacks is racist on its face, AND (b) an admission that old fashioned, ignorant, bigoted racism does indeed still exist and must be culturally eradicated.

Those are the biggest impediments I see in this, among others.
.

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

Agreed here. Most of our "race" problems are really cultural problems. Regardless of how those differences came to be, they need to be addressed or they will never be resolved. If a college has a problem with underage drinking or date rape, they address it. Some don't like it being addressed, but most will benefit from it being addressed. Same with "race" relations.

One solution that is not working is just throwing money at it. How can a person have self-respect if they know their life is being a mooch? A sponge? A parasite on society? Better if they are given the opportunities to prove their value as human beings and go home respecting themselves.

Best place to start is more and better jobs.

 

[Divine Wind]

I know people talk about it, but "top priority"? No. There are a lot bigger problems in the world besides trying to legislate stupid people (AKA racist dimwits).

Scientifically, it would be interesting to know why some people feel skin tone is such a big deal. Most of our differences are cultural, not genetic. Genetically, we're 99.5-99.9% alike. Skin tone, eye and hair color are simply superficial differences. Culturally, we can be as different as night and day. Consider the "Death Culture" of the Palestinians versus the culture of those who are willing to die rather than harm another person?

My guess is that humans are tribal in nature and feel more comfortable when they belong to a group.

So as it pertains to politics, we "pick" a "side" and run with it, spinning & deflecting & attacking for our "side" because we want to belong.

I know that sounds simplistic, but sometimes the simple answer is the right one.
.

Agreed on "tribal nature". As Desmond Morris wrote in his famous book, We're still just "naked apes" at our most basic.

While you are certainly correct about some people picking sides for a sense of belonging, the one's we're most familiar here are on the fringe; ardent partisans who put their backs to the wall and call anyone who opposes them names or their enemy. Forums are a safe place for them because if they did this IRL, they'd get their asses kicked on a regular basis.

What's worrying me is that - at least anecdotally - I'm seeing more and more of this behavior in "real life". People who, in regular conversation, are ready to launch off into some canned tirade against the other "side". With real anger.

I hope what I'm detecting is incorrect, that's for damn sure.
.

It's a phase. They're acting just like our leaders, celebrities and the talking heads on television. The louder others talk, the louder a person might shout in order to be heard. After a few more shootings and mass murders, most people will come to their senses. It's a natural cycle.

I do hope you're right.
.

Not sure of your age, but the 1960s was a pretty scary time. Not just the social unrest and mass domestic causalities from riots and entire city blocks on fire, but from both Viet Nam (over 56,000 Americans D-E-A-D) and the constant threat of WWIII and global nuclear annihilation. This is nothing compared to that. Sure, some people will end up dead, but it will be nothing like this:

Watts Riot begins - Aug 11, 1965 - HISTORY.com
The five days of violence left 34 dead, 1,032 injured, nearly 4,000 arrested, and $40 million worth of property destroyed. The Watts riot was the worst urban riot in 20 years and foreshadowed the many rebellions to occur in ensuing years during the 1967 Detroit Riots, the Newark Riots, and other violence.

 

[ricechickie]

Mac, I heard a guy on the news a few nights ago who has just written a book. His claim is that we can defeat racism by being MORE into our "identities," into being tribal, really building feeling of community around us and feeling of belonging in our own cultures, which defeats the reason for racist recruitment--needing a feeling of belonging, of a specific identity. If we have a strong sense of identity, of who we are, we will be more secure and less likely to be hostile or uncomfortable with other groups. Just being white isn't enough. It's way too global and ephemeral.
Wish I could remember where I heard him. It was an interesting and practical idea, actually. Some of the groups that try to "rehabilitate" racists claim the same underlying lack of a positive identity that sucks them in. The racist org gives broken folk a place to feel accepted and gives them a "tribe." Not so different from the lure of gang culture, actually.

That's not the ONLY factor or the only solution, but it was harmless and people have actually been talking about it for years--somehow recouping that feeling of belonging in something secure and positive.

Holy crap, that goes against all my impulses, but I'm open to anything at this point.

Let's not forget that it's Identity Politics, the division of people, that has so many (including myself) at odds with the Left.

Maybe the author might argue that it would depend on the way it's done. If it's done in a combative, divisive way, it simply can't work, because that's what got us here. If there's a way to do it in a civil, cooperate way, then maybe. Of course it takes two to tango...
.

Step one would debunking the idea that it is taboo to even talk about whites as a group, with a culture and interests of their own.

Otherwise, it just degenerates into the same old same old.

Yes, agreed, but there should be a Step One for each side of this argument. That's how effective communication works. For example, Step One could be (a) to reject any notion that criticism of blacks is racist on its face, AND (b) an admission that old fashioned, ignorant, bigoted racism does indeed still exist and must be culturally eradicated.

Those are the biggest impediments I see in this, among others.
.

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

 

[Correll]

...and yet, you parrot the same exact same talking points as thousands of other old white men who consider themselves to be "above" racism, but think that everything was just fine back before black people started whining about how much it sucks for them.

I'm an old white man. White as the driven snow. All four grandparents emigrated from Norway or Democrat after the turn of the last century. I was born on an Army post during WW-II. My Mom moved back to Chicago after my Ol' Man shipped out to France in July 1944. He joined us in Chicago after 2 years in a military hospital in Texas. We lived in my grandparent's apartment building until we moved to Miami when I was nine. One of my three best friends was Asian, one was half Native American and one was like me. I never met a black person. I had seen black men, they delivered the coal for the apartments and they picked up the garbage in the alley.

I met my first black person when we arrived in Miami. That would have been our maid. In Miami, Homestead actually, I attended all white schools. Public water fountains were indeed labeled and our doctor had two waiting rooms. One labeled White and the other Colored. My senior year in high school was immediately after schools were integrated. We were a brand new school and it had been all white since the day it opened. We had a student body of about 1,500 students. That last year we were considered to be integrated. We had two black students.

Roll the calendar forward until 1974 when I went into real estate profession. One of my first sales was to a mixed couple, very rare at the time, who had been referred to me by a Lt. Com. whom I had sold a house to the previous year. He was head of the ROTC at FA&M University. In the 1980's since no one else wanted to teach such a complex issue with so many difficult questions, I began teaching Fair Housing for our local assn's orientation. I went on to get my instructors license and I auditioned for and began teaching 3 and 4 hour Fair Housing courses for our state association. When it came out, I auditioned for and began teaching a Diversity Course for our National Association traveling all across the U.S. and all over Florida. I was one of the best in Florida and the nation.

Like all other stereotypes, I don't fit the mold. Go figure.

That seems very nice. Do you want a cookie?

I didn't call you a racist, but thanks for the defense.

Great post, if you were trying to be dismissive and insulting.


Now, if he insults you back, will you get on your high horse?

LOL. Funny, but in all fairness, Doc and Dogmaphobe were going cats and dogs first.

Yes, I saw. And that was the pattern I saw.


Just because you don't use a clear and specific insult does not mean that you are not being insulting.


Utterly dismissing someone's post, then putting on airs when they rightfully act insulted, is a behavior designed to sabotage communication.

 

[Divine Wind]

Step one would debunking the idea that it is taboo to even talk about whites as a group, with a culture and interests of their own.

Otherwise, it just degenerates into the same old same old.

Yes, agreed, but there should be a Step One for each side of this argument. That's how effective communication works. For example, Step One could be (a) to reject any notion that criticism of blacks is racist on its face, AND (b) an admission that old fashioned, ignorant, bigoted racism does indeed still exist and must be culturally eradicated.

Those are the biggest impediments I see in this, among others.
.

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

Agreed here. Most of our "race" problems are really cultural problems. Regardless of how those differences came to be, they need to be addressed or they will never be resolved. If a college has a problem with underage drinking or date rape, they address it. Some don't like it being addressed, but most will benefit from it being addressed. Same with "race" relations.

One solution that is not working is just throwing money at it. How can a person have self-respect if they know their life is being a mooch? A sponge? A parasite on society? Better if they are given the opportunities to prove their value as human beings and go home respecting themselves.

Best place to start is more and better jobs.

Agreed, but not "busy work". Not "government jobs" where they just show up and collect a paycheck while sitting around talking on cellphones. Self-respect has to be earned.

 

[Divine Wind]

...and yet, you parrot the same exact same talking points as thousands of other old white men who consider themselves to be "above" racism, but think that everything was just fine back before black people started whining about how much it sucks for them.

I'm an old white man. White as the driven snow. All four grandparents emigrated from Norway or Democrat after the turn of the last century. I was born on an Army post during WW-II. My Mom moved back to Chicago after my Ol' Man shipped out to France in July 1944. He joined us in Chicago after 2 years in a military hospital in Texas. We lived in my grandparent's apartment building until we moved to Miami when I was nine. One of my three best friends was Asian, one was half Native American and one was like me. I never met a black person. I had seen black men, they delivered the coal for the apartments and they picked up the garbage in the alley.

I met my first black person when we arrived in Miami. That would have been our maid. In Miami, Homestead actually, I attended all white schools. Public water fountains were indeed labeled and our doctor had two waiting rooms. One labeled White and the other Colored. My senior year in high school was immediately after schools were integrated. We were a brand new school and it had been all white since the day it opened. We had a student body of about 1,500 students. That last year we were considered to be integrated. We had two black students.

Roll the calendar forward until 1974 when I went into real estate profession. One of my first sales was to a mixed couple, very rare at the time, who had been referred to me by a Lt. Com. whom I had sold a house to the previous year. He was head of the ROTC at FA&M University. In the 1980's since no one else wanted to teach such a complex issue with so many difficult questions, I began teaching Fair Housing for our local assn's orientation. I went on to get my instructors license and I auditioned for and began teaching 3 and 4 hour Fair Housing courses for our state association. When it came out, I auditioned for and began teaching a Diversity Course for our National Association traveling all across the U.S. and all over Florida. I was one of the best in Florida and the nation.

Like all other stereotypes, I don't fit the mold. Go figure.

That seems very nice. Do you want a cookie?

I didn't call you a racist, but thanks for the defense.

Great post, if you were trying to be dismissive and insulting.


Now, if he insults you back, will you get on your high horse?

LOL. Funny, but in all fairness, Doc and Dogmaphobe were going cats and dogs first.

Yes, I saw. And that was the pattern I saw.


Just because you don't use a clear and specific insult does not mean that you are not being insulting.


Utterly dismissing someone's post, then putting on airs when they rightfully act insulted, is a behavior designed to sabotage communication.

Well said and agreed.

 

[Divine Wind]

Holy crap, that goes against all my impulses, but I'm open to anything at this point.

Let's not forget that it's Identity Politics, the division of people, that has so many (including myself) at odds with the Left.

Maybe the author might argue that it would depend on the way it's done. If it's done in a combative, divisive way, it simply can't work, because that's what got us here. If there's a way to do it in a civil, cooperate way, then maybe. Of course it takes two to tango...
.

Step one would debunking the idea that it is taboo to even talk about whites as a group, with a culture and interests of their own.

Otherwise, it just degenerates into the same old same old.

Yes, agreed, but there should be a Step One for each side of this argument. That's how effective communication works. For example, Step One could be (a) to reject any notion that criticism of blacks is racist on its face, AND (b) an admission that old fashioned, ignorant, bigoted racism does indeed still exist and must be culturally eradicated.

Those are the biggest impediments I see in this, among others.
.

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone criticizing an entire race, only a specific American subculture in an American city.

 

[Mac1958]

My guess is that humans are tribal in nature and feel more comfortable when they belong to a group.

So as it pertains to politics, we "pick" a "side" and run with it, spinning & deflecting & attacking for our "side" because we want to belong.

I know that sounds simplistic, but sometimes the simple answer is the right one.
.

Agreed on "tribal nature". As Desmond Morris wrote in his famous book, We're still just "naked apes" at our most basic.

While you are certainly correct about some people picking sides for a sense of belonging, the one's we're most familiar here are on the fringe; ardent partisans who put their backs to the wall and call anyone who opposes them names or their enemy. Forums are a safe place for them because if they did this IRL, they'd get their asses kicked on a regular basis.

What's worrying me is that - at least anecdotally - I'm seeing more and more of this behavior in "real life". People who, in regular conversation, are ready to launch off into some canned tirade against the other "side". With real anger.

I hope what I'm detecting is incorrect, that's for damn sure.
.

It's a phase. They're acting just like our leaders, celebrities and the talking heads on television. The louder others talk, the louder a person might shout in order to be heard. After a few more shootings and mass murders, most people will come to their senses. It's a natural cycle.

I do hope you're right.
.

Not sure of your age, but the 1960s was a pretty scary time. Not just the social unrest and mass domestic causalities from riots and entire city blocks on fire, but from both Viet Nam (over 56,000 Americans D-E-A-D) and the constant threat of WWIII and global nuclear annihilation. This is nothing compared to that. Sure, some people will end up dead, but it will be nothing like this:

Watts Riot begins - Aug 11, 1965 - HISTORY.com
The five days of violence left 34 dead, 1,032 injured, nearly 4,000 arrested, and $40 million worth of property destroyed. The Watts riot was the worst urban riot in 20 years and foreshadowed the many rebellions to occur in ensuing years during the 1967 Detroit Riots, the Newark Riots, and other violence.

I do believe that's very possible, but the big thing that has changed the landscape is the internet, which has profoundly separated us even more into tribes. A person doesn't have to leave their home, they don't have to talk to anyone for months, and they can come out one day as a complete zealot.
.

 

[Correll]

Holy crap, that goes against all my impulses, but I'm open to anything at this point.

Let's not forget that it's Identity Politics, the division of people, that has so many (including myself) at odds with the Left.

Maybe the author might argue that it would depend on the way it's done. If it's done in a combative, divisive way, it simply can't work, because that's what got us here. If there's a way to do it in a civil, cooperate way, then maybe. Of course it takes two to tango...
.

Step one would debunking the idea that it is taboo to even talk about whites as a group, with a culture and interests of their own.

Otherwise, it just degenerates into the same old same old.

Yes, agreed, but there should be a Step One for each side of this argument. That's how effective communication works. For example, Step One could be (a) to reject any notion that criticism of blacks is racist on its face, AND (b) an admission that old fashioned, ignorant, bigoted racism does indeed still exist and must be culturally eradicated.

Those are the biggest impediments I see in this, among others.
.

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

 

[ricechickie]

Step one would debunking the idea that it is taboo to even talk about whites as a group, with a culture and interests of their own.

Otherwise, it just degenerates into the same old same old.

Yes, agreed, but there should be a Step One for each side of this argument. That's how effective communication works. For example, Step One could be (a) to reject any notion that criticism of blacks is racist on its face, AND (b) an admission that old fashioned, ignorant, bigoted racism does indeed still exist and must be culturally eradicated.

Those are the biggest impediments I see in this, among others.
.

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone criticizing an entire race, only a specific American subculture in an American city.

Really? Can you quote the words that made you see that?

 

[ricechickie]

Step one would debunking the idea that it is taboo to even talk about whites as a group, with a culture and interests of their own.

Otherwise, it just degenerates into the same old same old.

Yes, agreed, but there should be a Step One for each side of this argument. That's how effective communication works. For example, Step One could be (a) to reject any notion that criticism of blacks is racist on its face, AND (b) an admission that old fashioned, ignorant, bigoted racism does indeed still exist and must be culturally eradicated.

Those are the biggest impediments I see in this, among others.
.

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

 

[Mac1958]

Yes, agreed, but there should be a Step One for each side of this argument. That's how effective communication works. For example, Step One could be (a) to reject any notion that criticism of blacks is racist on its face, AND (b) an admission that old fashioned, ignorant, bigoted racism does indeed still exist and must be culturally eradicated.

Those are the biggest impediments I see in this, among others.
.

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

Folks, even though we should all be willing to take and consider criticism, we're too far gone for that approach.

What this is going to take, at least at the beginning, is for each end of this issue to criticize itself, to clean its own house before pointing the finger (I do love mixed metaphors).

We're too sensitive now to listen to the "other side". This has to come from within each "side".
.

 

[ricechickie]

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

Folks, even though we should all be willing to take and consider criticism, we're too far gone for that approach.

What this is going to take is each end of this issue to criticize itself, to clean its own house before pointing the finger (I do love mixed metaphors).

We're too sensitive now to listen to the "other side". This has to come from within each "side".
.

That's my point. Criticism of entire groups backfires spectacularly, anyway. Those who take criticism to heart will get defensive because they are probably part of that group that doesn't show that behavior, and yet they're being "targeted." The members of the group who need the criticism won't hear it.

The one doing the criticizing shows themselves as capable of wielding a really large brush.

If someone said to me, "Women are vain," I will get defensive, as a woman who isn't vain, but now feels the weight of an accusation leveled against my whole gender. Especially if charges of vanity are used to pay me less, take me less seriously, and generally marginalize me.

 

[Mac1958]

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

Folks, even though we should all be willing to take and consider criticism, we're too far gone for that approach.

What this is going to take is each end of this issue to criticize itself, to clean its own house before pointing the finger (I do love mixed metaphors).

We're too sensitive now to listen to the "other side". This has to come from within each "side".
.

That's my point. Criticism of entire groups backfires spectacularly, anyway. Those who take criticism to heart will get defensive because they are probably part of that group that doesn't show that behavior, and yet they're being "targeted." The members of the group who need the criticism won't hear it.

The one doing the criticizing shows themselves as capable of wielding a really large brush.

If someone said to me, "Women are vain," I will get defensive, as a woman who isn't vain, but now feels the weight of an accusation leveled against my whole gender. Especially if charges of vanity are used to pay me less, take me less seriously, and generally marginalize me.

Agreed. But I do think that it's not good that we've reached this point. Honest criticism should not be met with defensiveness and deflection and attacks, and we have definitely seen that from both sides of this.
.