A World Without Capitalism and Tradable Shares?

[georgephillip]

And yes, it might have been peaceful, in that people that are in mass starvation are pretty peaceful. There is tons of peace in North Korea today. Hard for anyone to fight each other, when soldiers are eating grass.

Just think how much better life in North Korea would be today if the US Army had not occupied southern Korea in 1945 and banned free elections.
United States Army Military Government in Korea - Wikipedia

The Rise and Fall of North Korea

"How North Korea, a country once wealthier than South Korea, descended into poverty

"North Korea is now one of the poorest countries on Earth, relying largely on Chinese aid.

"But the per capita GDP of North Korea was once far greater than that of its (now wealthy) southern counterpart, South Korea, and of its most powerful ally, China.

"This is the story of North Korea’s economic surge in the 1970s and 80s, and it’s incessant decline since the early 1990s."

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Just think how much better life in North Korea would be today if the US Army had not occupied southern Korea in 1945 and banned free elections.

North Korea could have had free elections anytime and the US couldn't stop them.
How many have they had?

 

[georgephillip]

Then why is it, that in nearly every free market, there is not a monopoly?

Markets are not free in any economic system that allows a small minority of individuals to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and, most importantly, how to distribute any surplus.

Free market - Wikipedia

"Critics of capitalism argue that it concentrates power in the hands of a minority capitalist class that exists through the exploitation of the majority working class and their labor, prioritizes profit over social good, natural resources and the environment, is an engine of inequality, corruption and economic instabilities, and that many are not able to access its purported benefits and freedoms, such as freely investing."

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Markets are not free in any economic system that allows a small minority of individuals to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and, most importantly, how to distribute any surplus.

Exactly!
Markets are only free when government makes all those decisions.

MORON!!!

 

[Brain357]

And yes, it might have been peaceful, in that people that are in mass starvation are pretty peaceful. There is tons of peace in North Korea today. Hard for anyone to fight each other, when soldiers are eating grass.

Just think how much better life in North Korea would be today if the US Army had not occupied southern Korea in 1945 and banned free elections.
United States Army Military Government in Korea - Wikipedia

The Rise and Fall of North Korea

"How North Korea, a country once wealthier than South Korea, descended into poverty

"North Korea is now one of the poorest countries on Earth, relying largely on Chinese aid.

"But the per capita GDP of North Korea was once far greater than that of its (now wealthy) southern counterpart, South Korea, and of its most powerful ally, China.

"This is the story of North Korea’s economic surge in the 1970s and 80s, and it’s incessant decline since the early 1990s."

It really doesn’t bother you that real socialism has failed every time?

 

[georgephillip]

The soviet leadership had no problem with poor civilian conscripts being sent on suicide missions, as long as they got to live by obeying the government.

And this is the system you really support?

I don't support authoritarian governments regardless of the name of its "Dear Leader" Hitler, Stalin, and Trump are all the same white trash except the latter is too stupid for any rational individual to support.

I do support the obvious historical claim that US and UK capitalists armed German capitalists in the wake of WWI as a buffer against Russian communism in spite of the fact it was the latter who had been invaded by western capitalist armies bent on regime change.

 

[Andylusion]

And yes, it might have been peaceful, in that people that are in mass starvation are pretty peaceful. There is tons of peace in North Korea today. Hard for anyone to fight each other, when soldiers are eating grass.

Just think how much better life in North Korea would be today if the US Army had not occupied southern Korea in 1945 and banned free elections.
United States Army Military Government in Korea - Wikipedia

The Rise and Fall of North Korea

"How North Korea, a country once wealthier than South Korea, descended into poverty

"North Korea is now one of the poorest countries on Earth, relying largely on Chinese aid.

"But the per capita GDP of North Korea was once far greater than that of its (now wealthy) southern counterpart, South Korea, and of its most powerful ally, China.

"This is the story of North Korea’s economic surge in the 1970s and 80s, and it’s incessant decline since the early 1990s."

Bwahaha!

Come on! Seriously? See this is why some of us on this thread think that you are a mindless parrot, because you can't possibly believe this. You can't.

Seriously? You look at two countries, with completely different systems, and believe that if the country with the system that resulted in mass starvation, had taken over the country with the system that resulted in 1st world standards of living, that somehow they would have ended up 1st world?

By what logic? Explain that.

Unless you mean that they will adopt Capitalism. Like Vietnam.

Finley: In Vietnam, capitalism creeps up on communism

Finley writes: "Vietnam's transition to a fully open society, while highly possible, is not inevitable."

www.detroitnews.com

When North Vietnam slaughtered the South Vietnamese after American left-wingers refused to help an ally, the countries economy was destroyed by Socialism, as unemployment was everywhere, and people were fleeing on boats, to escape misery and starvation, and Socialists sponsored murder campaigns.

Today, Vietnam is thriving, not because Socialism succeeds, but rather because they adopted Capitalism.

Now here's the trick. North Korea can adopt Capitalism today, and end the starvation, and people risking their lives to cross the border to South Korea.

But there is no reason to believe that if the US had allowed the communists to take over all of Asian, that they would be a first world country today.

In fact, it is even more likely they would be impoverished and starving.

The whole reason that Communist countries have been moving towards Capitalism, is specifically because of the Asian Tigers. The leadership of China and Vietnam, looked around at Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea, and asked themselves, how is that much smaller countries, with fewer people, and far less natural resources, are living 1st world standards, while we're in mud huts?

This is exactly why they moved towards Capitalism, which has resulted in economic growth for them.

If not for the US, and western powers, Taiwan would not exist, Hong Kong would not exist, South Korea would not exist, and it's impossible to say where Japan would be, but likely not where it is.

As such, without the US, it is very very likely that all of those places, and China, and Vietnam, and all of Asia, would be starving to death.

So, there is no evidence that any of those places would be better off without the US intervention. No evidence at all.

 

[Andylusion]

The soviet leadership had no problem with poor civilian conscripts being sent on suicide missions, as long as they got to live by obeying the government.

And this is the system you really support?

I don't support authoritarian governments regardless of the name of its "Dear Leader" Hitler, Stalin, and Trump are all the same white trash except the latter is too stupid for any rational individual to support.

I do support the obvious historical claim that US and UK capitalists armed German capitalists in the wake of WWI as a buffer against Russian communism in spite of the fact it was the latter who had been invaded by western capitalist armies bent on regime change.

I find it ironic that you are claiming Trump is authoritarian. Trump signed far fewer executive orders, than Biden has thus far. So which side, the Capitalist president, or the Socialist president, is more authoritarian? Which one is bypassing congress the most to force what they want?

I do support the obvious historical claim that US and UK capitalists armed German capitalists in the wake of WWI as a buffer against Russian communism in spite of the fact it was the latter who had been invaded by western capitalist armies bent on regime change.

You do know that the Soviets were actively building an army to attack Europe? That's established historical fact.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007WTZ372/?tag=ff0d01-20

Stalin had planned for a mass invasion of Europe from the very start. The only thing he had not counted on, was the Germans attacking the Soviets.

Basically your entire argument is "They hit me back, first". Sorry, not an argument. If Stalin had not made a pact with Hitler to invade Poland to begin with, then you would have a better case to make.

 

[Andylusion]

Then why is it, that in nearly every free market, there is not a monopoly?

Markets are not free in any economic system that allows a small minority of individuals to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and, most importantly, how to distribute any surplus.

Free market - Wikipedia

"Critics of capitalism argue that it concentrates power in the hands of a minority capitalist class that exists through the exploitation of the majority working class and their labor, prioritizes profit over social good, natural resources and the environment, is an engine of inequality, corruption and economic instabilities, and that many are not able to access its purported benefits and freedoms, such as freely investing."

That is ridiculous. What minority of individuals decided that Bezos was allowed to start a company, and compete with all his competitors in 1997?

What minority of individuals allowed that Mexican guy down the street, to open his own restaurant?

What minority of individuals allowed Phil Robertson, a drunk that worked at a bar, to start selling duck callers he whittled?

What minority of individuals allowed Chris Gardner to open his own brokerage firm and become a multimillionaire?

What minority of individuals allowed Warren Buffet when he was in high school, to work a paper route, and use the money to buy pinball machines to put in local stores, to earn more money?

You live in a country, where absolutely anyone, can do anything at all. No one can prevent you from buying stock in a company today, just like Warren Buffet did when he was 10 years old.

No one can stop you from buying a $900 pickup truck, like Brian Scudamore, and starting a junk hauling service, and ending up with 1-800-GOT-JUNK, a multi million dollar international company.

Now one controls wealth. You are just wrong on this. Again, I know a couple that moved to the US from Laos. They both learned English when they got her. They got into a training program, and learned a skill, and between the two of them, earned $100,000 a year.

Please tell me, who did they get permission from?

No, you are just wrong on this.

 

[georgephillip]

Venezuelans, that 20 years ago lived in the most wealthy Latin American country, now searching through trash for food to eat.

But at least there is no capitalism, because government nationalized the food industry

Capitalism has been looting Venezuela longer than the country has existed, and they are still at it:

How ExxonMobil Uses Divide and Rule to Get Its Way in South America - CounterPunch.org

"Divide and Rule

"When the Romans went out to conquer the Mediterranean world, they did so by the policy of divide et impera, divide the adversaries and then rule over them.."

"After Venezuela declared its independence in 1811, the British colonizers in what they called British Guiana wanted to ensure that their stronghold would not be weakened.

"In 1835, Robert Hermann Schomburgk surveyed the edges of the British territory and drew a line that claimed the Essequibo and Orinoco river basins for his imperial masters; Venezuela disputed the so-called 'Schomburgk Line' in 1840.

"When gold was discovered in the Cuyuni basin, plainly in Venezuelan territory, the line was shifted to claim that entire region."

 

[georgephillip]

Cuba, a nation that in the 1950s had a 1st world standard of living, today entire sides of buildings have collapsed in a nation with a national housing shorted, where people live 3 families in one apartment

How do current infant mortality rates in Cuba compare with 1950? What about literacy rates? Did Batista provide free medical care to all Cubans?

Your dictator worship makes me think you would be much happier living in Russia, China, or Venezuela.
Fulgencio Batista, Cuban Dictator

 

[Andylusion]

Venezuelans, that 20 years ago lived in the most wealthy Latin American country, now searching through trash for food to eat.

But at least there is no capitalism, because government nationalized the food industry

Capitalism has been looting Venezuela longer than the country has existed, and they are still at it:

How ExxonMobil Uses Divide and Rule to Get Its Way in South America - CounterPunch.org

"Divide and Rule

"When the Romans went out to conquer the Mediterranean world, they did so by the policy of divide et impera, divide the adversaries and then rule over them.."

"After Venezuela declared its independence in 1811, the British colonizers in what they called British Guiana wanted to ensure that their stronghold would not be weakened.

"In 1835, Robert Hermann Schomburgk surveyed the edges of the British territory and drew a line that claimed the Essequibo and Orinoco river basins for his imperial masters; Venezuela disputed the so-called 'Schomburgk Line' in 1840.

"When gold was discovered in the Cuyuni basin, plainly in Venezuelan territory, the line was shifted to claim that entire region."

None of what you posted, has any relevance to today.

We've been over this. If your only argument, is to go back hundreds of years, to people long dead, and actions that have nothing to do with the situation today.... then you don't have an argument.

In fact, what you are actually doing is proving to everyone that socialism is a failure, when you can't make a relevant current day argument, and you have to go back to the early 1800s.

 

[Andylusion]

Cuba, a nation that in the 1950s had a 1st world standard of living, today entire sides of buildings have collapsed in a nation with a national housing shorted, where people live 3 families in one apartment

How do current infant mortality rates in Cuba compare with 1950? What about literacy rates? Did Batista provide free medical care to all Cubans?

Your dictator worship makes me think you would be much happier living in Russia, China, or Venezuela.
Fulgencio Batista, Cuban Dictator

The answer is, we don't know. The reason we don't know is because doctors in Cuba, who report an infant death, end up losing their job as a doctor, and thus they simply don't report infant deaths.

Literacy is not important, if being literate has no value.

https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article1948284.html

Cuba has thousands of literate well educated women, and even young girls, and sometimes boys, that are prostituting themselves out, because there is no other way to get any money.

What difference does it make if the public is literate, when your only shot at earning money, is to engage in prostitution?

Literacy only matters when you have jobs. And you only have jobs, when there is a capitalist to create those jobs.

Your dictator worship makes me think you would be much happier living in Russia, China, or Venezuela.

Facts contradict your opinion. Left-wingers are universally dictators. Right-wing people believe in free-market capitalism, which is the very opposite of dictatorship.

 

[georgephillip]

But the point it... yeah I can very much imagine a world without Capitalism. In fact, I can picture it.... right on the internet.

I know you can

The Republican Party's Iran-Level Superstitious Anti-Semitism: Greene claimed Jewish Space Laser started Cali Wildfires

 

[georgephillip]

It also gave the world Chernobyl, which came very close to making all of Eastern Europe completely uninhabitable. And no, it wasn’t an “accident”,

What do you know about Chernobyl that Wiki doesn't?

Chernobyl disaster - Wikipedia

"The accident started during a safety test on an RBMK-type nuclear reactor, which was commonly used throughout the Soviet Union.

"The test was a simulation of an electrical power outage to aid the development of a safety procedure for maintaining reactor cooling water circulation until the back-up electrical generators could provide power.

"This gap was about one minute and had been identified as a potential safety problem that could cause the nuclear reactor core to overheat."

 

[Andylusion]

But the point it... yeah I can very much imagine a world without Capitalism. In fact, I can picture it.... right on the internet.

I know you can

The Republican Party's Iran-Level Superstitious Anti-Semitism: Greene claimed Jewish Space Laser started Cali Wildfires

For once we seem to agree. You asked if I could imagine a world without capitalism, I said yes, and you posted pictures of idiots in government.

Agreed. That's the world you want, is with stupid people in charge. That picture is literally what you advocate.

 

[Andylusion]

It also gave the world Chernobyl, which came very close to making all of Eastern Europe completely uninhabitable. And no, it wasn’t an “accident”,

What do you know about Chernobyl that Wiki doesn't?

Chernobyl disaster - Wikipedia

"The accident started during a safety test on an RBMK-type nuclear reactor, which was commonly used throughout the Soviet Union.

"The test was a simulation of an electrical power outage to aid the development of a safety procedure for maintaining reactor cooling water circulation until the back-up electrical generators could provide power.

"This gap was about one minute and had been identified as a potential safety problem that could cause the nuclear reactor core to overheat."

The RBMK type reactor had a known flaw, caused by the government cutting corners to save costs. That flaw was told to the people the government put in charge of the reactor.

Socialism caused the Chernobyl disaster.

 

[georgephillip]

The Russian revolution would have never happened.

Under what circumstances?

 

[georgephillip]

Shares that can't be sold are worth nothing. Why would anyone have them?

Maybe they believe in free markets?

Opinion | A world without capitalism is not too hard to envision

"Tradable shares allowed private corporations to become larger and more powerful than states.

"Liberalism’s fatal hypocrisy was to celebrate the virtuous neighbourhood of butchers, bakers and brewers in order to defend the worst enemies of free markets."

 

[Andylusion]

Shares that can't be sold are worth nothing. Why would anyone have them?

Maybe they believe in free markets?

Opinion | A world without capitalism is not too hard to envision

"Tradable shares allowed private corporations to become larger and more powerful than states.

"Liberalism’s fatal hypocrisy was to celebrate the virtuous neighbourhood of butchers, bakers and brewers in order to defend the worst enemies of free markets."

Are you just babbling nonsense?

"Shares would not be tradable"

"Shares that can't be sold are worthless. Why would anyone have them?"

"Maybe they believe in free markets?"

..... if the market is free, than shares in a company would be tradable, and could be sold....

So your statement is ridiculous.

Moreover, tradable shares do not allow private corporations to become larger and more powerful than states. That is factually not true.