Abbas 'Diplomatic surprise' - Deadline for Israel to withdraw from WB

[toastman]

...
Israel is alive and well, and you know that, ....

Yes. We both do.
We both know that things are completely alive, right up until the moment that they are dead.
But once they are dead ... well .. That's it.

Well, let me now when that happens Beezle.

 

[toastman]

...Then I am curious as to why you hook your wagon to Israel. My heritage is quite similar to yours yet I obviously have taken a different path.

Because, for as much as you perceive the Muslim-Arab Palestinians to be the underdog in this short-lived (only 66 years) situation...

I perceive the Jews to have been the underdog for the better part of 2000 years, and to have suffered so much more than the Palestinians so as to exceed them by several orders of magnitude...

I side with them because Christians and Muslims both have vast tracts of land, and entire nations, and ancient cities, that serve as the Spiritual Mothership and home-bases for those other faiths, but the Jews lost theirs some 1900 years ago, and had none, until 1948...

I side with them because I grew up sensitive to their horrific pain and their tribulations spread across the vast sprawl of many centuries of pogrom and slaughter and Dhimmitude.

I side with them because the pain of the Palestinians in the past 66 years is a drop in the bucket compared to that of the Jews.

I side with them because the Muslims of the region could not part with a tiny sliver carved out of the vast tracts of land that they hold, to let the Jews come home again.

I side with them because they kicked the Muslims' arses, good and proper, against frightful odds, time and again - demonstrating a long-lost, now-recovered ability to fight.

I side with them because - after so many generations of cowering in their isolated little enclaves - they found their courage again, to stand up and fight for themselves.

I side with them because - after so many generations of Dhimmitude and being obliged to hide in the shadows - they now stand like men again, in the open light of day.

I side with them because they managed to hold themselves together as a community of faith - and because they managed to keep sight of a goal (returning to the Holy Land) for nearly two millennia - the All-Time World Record Holders, for cohesion, faith, loyalty and dedication in the face of Diaspora and catastrophic persecution.

I side with them because I perceive the Jews - collectively - to have a measure of courage and character so far in excess of the Muslim-Arabs of Palestine so as to defy measurement.

And other reasons, I suppose, but that's good for a start.

If I were King of the World and if I could spare the Muslim-Arab Palestinians their trials and tribulations while still giving the Jews what they need, I would.

But I cannot.

The world is what it is.

In any situation where compromise is no longer possible and peaceful coexistence is no longer possible, one either walks away, or chooses a side.

I chose mine, long ago.

For the reasons outlined here, among others.

--------------------

You asked, and you got a straight answer.

See you on the barricades.

Thank you for an honest and thoughtful response. From what I get from what you say that because Jews have been persecuted over the centuries (little if any by the Palestinians) they have the right to wipe another country off the map killing and expelling the people at will.

I have a different value system.

No, that's what YOU said, He never said anything about wiping a country off the map. The only people talking about wiping another country off the map are the Palestinians talking about Israel as well as Israels other enemies.

 

[fanger]

Israel should get used to
surprise's

 

[Beelzebub]

Israel does "one-sided steps" all the time.
It seems to be Israel's game-plan to have two or three moves each turn, and begrudge Palestinians having any, and maneuvers them into "fight or surrender" as the only options.

Palestinians need to stop expecting Israel to play a fair game.
Every move they make diplomatically should be without regard to Israeli feelings or pressure.

Press on to the legal consequences and the societal and international consequences of Israel trying to always have the upper hand. And just do it.

When Israel behaves as badly as it does, you cannot hold off because they say they would not approve.

Good morning.
Now remind me one agreement or treaty the Palestinians actually kept?

Why would they keep a treaty when Israel drives a bulldozer though them as soon as they are signed?

LINK or you will be admitting that you are lying.................

LINK to me admitting that I lied.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Beelzebub]

If you don't like the green line as a border, then no problem. I don't much like it either.

So the only borders we can agree on are the 1948 borders.
Use them.

What 1948 borders as none were ever negotiated after the arab muslims refused res 181

Fine.

Then lets place them right up against the Egyptian border that you have agreed to. Giving just a half an inch of Israel. I would suggest an inch, but of course they would see that as in invite to take a mile.

 

[Beelzebub]

1.Israel kept all agreements and treaties signed with the Palestinians(At least most of them, you didn't bother to disprove that so lets go with 'all of them')

2.The Palestinians never kept any agreement or treaty with Israel.

Ok:

Do you REALLY want to discuss this?
I mean, when you are proven wrong, which you are will you change your mind, will you reconsider Israel's crimes?
Will you realise that Israel is systematically against a negotiated agreement which places any limits on Israel other than total control of all of Palestine?

Really Danny boy, what are you prepared to put on the line over this question, because I don't willingly waste my time just so you can say, "Yeah, but I think you don't understand that Israel couldn't follow the agreement honestly."

Yes,
You went way too far Beezlebub and you know that, so you try to intimidate me somehow...? or maybe you think you have a good answer for that - or maybe you think someone else here does and you wait for them to suggest it, probably, but you might realize you don't so you'll play offended and avoid, bingo?
I'm still waiting for you to remind us all which agreement or treaty the Palestinians kept?

Come on then.
What's on the line for this.
I've asked you to tell me what you will put on the line for me going to the trouble to educate you and prove you wrong. You never came back on that.

You are clearly winding yourself up over this so I think you need to give me something to incentivise me to do this for you. I can, but my time is not for free. And I know that when I make the effort you will just say "yes but that doesn't count because ..."

Its what you always do.

So what do you offer?

 

[Slyhunter]

We need to get the Arabs out of Israel. Israel needs to stop giving them jobs.

 

[Beelzebub]

So you admit its Israel's intention to sabotage any resolution.

Well done Daniyel. That's very honest of you.

As to your rationalisation: You make a fair peace, withdraw, even to just the 1967 borders (1948 would be better) and you just see how much support comes to Israel. You could shoot across those borders with the blessings of nearly everyone, while Palestinians would finally be told to get a life and enjoy it.

Even Israel's opponents outside of Palestine recognise it would be more trouble to cancel than to exist IF it was to stick to a territory limited by treaty. Of course, while you insist on sabotaging any just peace arrangements, there is no end to your mischief, so it makes more sense to cancel Israel.

How does one cancel a country ?

Israel will be the first, so we will need to get some lawmakers onto it.
I expect an early step will be to reverse the UN recognition and UN member recognition of it as a state separate from Palestine.

I expect Israel would tell the United Muslims to take a flying leap. The UN is as impotent as a used tire.

Yes. Not far wrong.
Much of that due to the US influence on it.

Oddly enough the UN was set up BY America to back the US agenda.
They knew the Russians weren't all that interested as long as they got their sphere of influence out of the deal. The Chinese were indifferent, but when the US / UK seem to have just one viewpoint Russia wanted a "second" in the mix of the UNSC.

France - having extensive overseas territories got a seat at the table too, with German stripped of its foreign possessions (Namibia and the like), didn't.

But the UN is not JUST a US bitch. It has shown too much independence and principle, and political power, so while many in the US want it abandoned, some want its influence still.

As the US weakens the US will gain power. It is already a player and will play with your interests over the coming decades and centuries.

 

[Beelzebub]

...
Israel is alive and well, and you know that, ....

Yes. We both do.
We both know that things are completely alive, right up until the moment that they are dead.
But once they are dead ... well .. That's it.

Well, let me now when that happens Beezle.

You bore me toastman.

 

[toastman]

...
Israel is alive and well, and you know that, ....

Yes. We both do.
We both know that things are completely alive, right up until the moment that they are dead.
But once they are dead ... well .. That's it.

Well, let me now when that happens Beezle.

You bore me toastman.

Good for you Weezle. Ask me if I care.

 

[toastman]

1.Israel kept all agreements and treaties signed with the Palestinians(At least most of them, you didn't bother to disprove that so lets go with 'all of them')

2.The Palestinians never kept any agreement or treaty with Israel.

Ok:

Do you REALLY want to discuss this?
I mean, when you are proven wrong, which you are will you change your mind, will you reconsider Israel's crimes?
Will you realise that Israel is systematically against a negotiated agreement which places any limits on Israel other than total control of all of Palestine?

Really Danny boy, what are you prepared to put on the line over this question, because I don't willingly waste my time just so you can say, "Yeah, but I think you don't understand that Israel couldn't follow the agreement honestly."

Yes,
You went way too far Beezlebub and you know that, so you try to intimidate me somehow...? or maybe you think you have a good answer for that - or maybe you think someone else here does and you wait for them to suggest it, probably, but you might realize you don't so you'll play offended and avoid, bingo?
I'm still waiting for you to remind us all which agreement or treaty the Palestinians kept?

Come on then.
What's on the line for this.
I've asked you to tell me what you will put on the line for me going to the trouble to educate you and prove you wrong. You never came back on that.

You are clearly winding yourself up over this so I think you need to give me something to incentivise me to do this for you. I can, but my time is not for free. And I know that when I make the effort you will just say "yes but that doesn't count because ..."

Its what you always do.

So what do you offer?

Beautiful deflection

 

[montelatici]

We need to get the Arabs out of Israel. Israel needs to stop giving them jobs.

Go ahead, make their day.

 

[Daniyel]

I said yes, prove me wrong.

 

[theliq]

...There! Kondor is being honest. Why can the rest of you Zionists not follow his example?

Kondor is also NOT a stakeholder nor a Zionist... merely a sympathetic observer.
...

Yes dear.

Ahhhhh, Bubbles...

I'm a mixed-breed Irish-German American, Roman Catholic in religious background, living in the far-flung suburbs of Chicago, with zero connection to Israel, with the vague exception of a nominally-Jewish brother-in-law, who hasn't been to temple in 30 years or more, and who doesn't concern himself overly much with Israel or the Middle East.

I am not a stakeholder.

True story.

Roman hey,Irish hey,German hey...American hey...you like me are nothing but a Mongrel, Kondor......join the club..LOL..steve

 

[Phoenall]

Israel does "one-sided steps" all the time.
It seems to be Israel's game-plan to have two or three moves each turn, and begrudge Palestinians having any, and maneuvers them into "fight or surrender" as the only options.

Palestinians need to stop expecting Israel to play a fair game.
Every move they make diplomatically should be without regard to Israeli feelings or pressure.

Press on to the legal consequences and the societal and international consequences of Israel trying to always have the upper hand. And just do it.

When Israel behaves as badly as it does, you cannot hold off because they say they would not approve.

Good morning.
Now remind me one agreement or treaty the Palestinians actually kept?

Why would they keep a treaty when Israel drives a bulldozer though them as soon as they are signed?

LINK or you will be admitting that you are lying.................

LINK to me admitting that I lied.

You are a 20 stone tosser Phoney.

Reported for personal abuse and trolling

 

[Phoenall]

If you don't like the green line as a border, then no problem. I don't much like it either.

So the only borders we can agree on are the 1948 borders.
Use them.

What 1948 borders as none were ever negotiated after the arab muslims refused res 181

Fine.

Then lets place them right up against the Egyptian border that you have agreed to. Giving just a half an inch of Israel. I would suggest an inch, but of course they would see that as in invite to take a mile.

Why is that what you want, eternal conflict. The Israeli's are prepared to let the Palestinians live in peace inside mutual borders and to have free trade with the world. That is what they are offered every time they talk peace. The Palestinians reject out of hand ant discourse until the Israeli's have withdrawn to non existent borders, disarmed, flooded Israel with terrorist Palestinians and committed suicide. Maybe if the worlds media was privy to the meetings and they were broadcast all over the world the P.A. would lose all their support and be told to stop acting like children. Isreal showed what the Palestinians could expect in regards to land back in 2005 with an agreement on final borders by mutual agreement.

What have the Palestinians ever offered

 

[Phoenall]

1.Israel kept all agreements and treaties signed with the Palestinians(At least most of them, you didn't bother to disprove that so lets go with 'all of them')

2.The Palestinians never kept any agreement or treaty with Israel.

Ok:

Do you REALLY want to discuss this?
I mean, when you are proven wrong, which you are will you change your mind, will you reconsider Israel's crimes?
Will you realise that Israel is systematically against a negotiated agreement which places any limits on Israel other than total control of all of Palestine?

Really Danny boy, what are you prepared to put on the line over this question, because I don't willingly waste my time just so you can say, "Yeah, but I think you don't understand that Israel couldn't follow the agreement honestly."

Yes,
You went way too far Beezlebub and you know that, so you try to intimidate me somehow...? or maybe you think you have a good answer for that - or maybe you think someone else here does and you wait for them to suggest it, probably, but you might realize you don't so you'll play offended and avoid, bingo?
I'm still waiting for you to remind us all which agreement or treaty the Palestinians kept?

Come on then.
What's on the line for this.
I've asked you to tell me what you will put on the line for me going to the trouble to educate you and prove you wrong. You never came back on that.

You are clearly winding yourself up over this so I think you need to give me something to incentivise me to do this for you. I can, but my time is not for free. And I know that when I make the effort you will just say "yes but that doesn't count because ..."

Its what you always do.

So what do you offer?

A stop to all belligerence, violence and terrorism, peace talks that will be held along the lines of un res 242 as promoted by its authors. Mutually agreed borders that will be inviolate and a close working relationship on the economies of both nations. In return Israel will withdraw to the borders, allow those with valid land title to move back to Israel under the terms of the original right of return, assist in the rebuilding of Palestine for the benefit of all and have a mutual respect for each other.

 

[Phoenall]

So you admit its Israel's intention to sabotage any resolution.

Well done Daniyel. That's very honest of you.

As to your rationalisation: You make a fair peace, withdraw, even to just the 1967 borders (1948 would be better) and you just see how much support comes to Israel. You could shoot across those borders with the blessings of nearly everyone, while Palestinians would finally be told to get a life and enjoy it.

Even Israel's opponents outside of Palestine recognise it would be more trouble to cancel than to exist IF it was to stick to a territory limited by treaty. Of course, while you insist on sabotaging any just peace arrangements, there is no end to your mischief, so it makes more sense to cancel Israel.

How does one cancel a country ?

Israel will be the first, so we will need to get some lawmakers onto it.
I expect an early step will be to reverse the UN recognition and UN member recognition of it as a state separate from Palestine.

I expect Israel would tell the United Muslims to take a flying leap. The UN is as impotent as a used tire.

Yes. Not far wrong.
Much of that due to the US influence on it.

Oddly enough the UN was set up BY America to back the US agenda.
They knew the Russians weren't all that interested as long as they got their sphere of influence out of the deal. The Chinese were indifferent, but when the US / UK seem to have just one viewpoint Russia wanted a "second" in the mix of the UNSC.

France - having extensive overseas territories got a seat at the table too, with German stripped of its foreign possessions (Namibia and the like), didn't.

But the UN is not JUST a US bitch. It has shown too much independence and principle, and political power, so while many in the US want it abandoned, some want its influence still.

As the US weakens the US will gain power. It is already a player and will play with your interests over the coming decades and centuries.

Try again as the world already had the League of Nations that was doing a fine job, those nations did not have to disband and join any UN. But they were instrumental in birthing the UN and setting it all up, which is why it has at least 3 centres of influence separated from each other. The UN has now become islams bitch as they control the Security Council and call all the shots.

 

[Beelzebub]

Israel does "one-sided steps" all the time.
It seems to be Israel's game-plan to have two or three moves each turn, and begrudge Palestinians having any, and maneuvers them into "fight or surrender" as the only options.

Palestinians need to stop expecting Israel to play a fair game.
Every move they make diplomatically should be without regard to Israeli feelings or pressure.

Press on to the legal consequences and the societal and international consequences of Israel trying to always have the upper hand. And just do it.

When Israel behaves as badly as it does, you cannot hold off because they say they would not approve.

Good morning.
Now remind me one agreement or treaty the Palestinians actually kept?

Why would they keep a treaty when Israel drives a bulldozer though them as soon as they are signed?

LINK or you will be admitting that you are lying.................

LINK to me admitting that I lied.

You are a 20 stone tosser Phoney.

Reported for personal abuse and trolling

Which bit wasn't factual Phoney?

 

[Phoenall]

Good morning.
Now remind me one agreement or treaty the Palestinians actually kept?

Why would they keep a treaty when Israel drives a bulldozer though them as soon as they are signed?

LINK or you will be admitting that you are lying.................

LINK to me admitting that I lied.

You are a 20 stone tosser Phoney.

Reported for personal abuse and trolling

Which bit wasn't factual Phoney?

All of it unless you want to start STALKING and TROLLING on this board as well ?