Abbas: Peace Agreement Will End Conflict

[RoccoR]

Roudy, et al,

I'm agnostic, so I don't argue religion well. I'm usually slammed for even opening my mouth on the subject.

How many "special" cities does a faith get? One? Two? Five? Muslims have Mecca and Medina and a whole host of other "holy" cities such as Karbala scattered throughout the Middle East . They can take a backseat in Jerusalem especially when it isn't mentioned in the Koran, not even once.

(COMMENT)

My question is: Is the Supreme Being that has a divine connection to Jerusalem a different Supreme Being for each of the three Religions?

My thought is, that all three religions see the "God of Abraham" as the Supreme Being. And so if the Supreme Being has a connection to Jerusalem for one, then it has meaning to all three Religions.

Which religions has what sites, is really irrelevant to the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being is concerned about the connection with humanity. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think a devote believer at an American Synagogue, a Christian Church, or an Islamic Temple has any less contact with the Supreme Being than those devote believers using the Synagogue, Church or Temple in Jerusalem. I think the Supreme Being is more concerned with the life style of the believer, their honesty, their generosity, and their humanity towards their fellow man.

Does a human need a special place to be one with the Supreme Being?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Roudy, et al,

I'm agnostic, so I don't argue religion well. I'm usually slammed for even opening my mouth on the subject.

How many "special" cities does a faith get? One? Two? Five? Muslims have Mecca and Medina and a whole host of other "holy" cities such as Karbala scattered throughout the Middle East . They can take a backseat in Jerusalem especially when it isn't mentioned in the Koran, not even once.

(COMMENT)

My question is: Is the Supreme Being that has a divine connection to Jerusalem a different Supreme Being for each of the three Religions?

My thought is, that all three religions see the "God of Abraham" as the Supreme Being. And so if the Supreme Being has a connection to Jerusalem for one, then it has meaning to all three Religions.

Which religions has what sites, is really irrelevant to the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being is concerned about the connection with humanity. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think a devote believer at an American Synagogue, a Christian Church, or an Islamic Temple has any less contact with the Supreme Being than those devote believers using the Synagogue, Church or Temple in Jerusalem. I think the Supreme Being is more concerned with the life style of the believer, their honesty, their generosity, and their humanity towards their fellow man.

Does a human need a special place to be one with the Supreme Being?

Most Respectfully,
R

Philisophically, I agree with you. But there are differences. Jerusalem has always been at the center of everything Jewish. Every Jewish house I've ever been to has pictures of Jerusalem on their walls. I'm guessing Tinnie's house doesn't have one. I've been saying this all along, but I'll say it again. Jews pray for Jerusalem 3x a day, and we face it when we pray, unlike the Muslims who turn their butts to it. Grooms break glasses at Jewish weddings for Jerusalem. We have 4 or 5 fast days a year, corresponding to Jerusalem. We remember Jerusalem on Passover and Yom Kippur. Jerusalem is just in the Jewish DNA, and this is something most non-Jews just can't comprehend. Furthermore, we have lost Hebron, Bethlehem, Jericho, Shechem, Bethel, Shiloh, etc. Shouldn't we at least be able to keep Jerusalem after all the miracles of the Six-Day War and all the soldiers' blood that was spilt, more than necessary, in order to protect all the holy sites? I spoke to one soldier who actually said that he saw angels in the Sinai, who scared away the Egyptian soldiers, in 1967. Giving up Jerusalem is like the great victory of the Six-Day War will have lost all meaning. Jerusalem should not be a contest, but let's be honest. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran, yet it's mentioned 700x in the Tanach. We pray towards it, they pray towards Mecca (where no non-Muslim may tread). We have open access to all the holy sites, though Christians believe more in a Heavenly Jerusalem. But it's ours, or at least the one square mile of the Old City, at least.

 

[Hossfly]

How many "special" cities does a faith get? One? Two? Five? Muslims have Mecca and Medina and a whole host of other "holy" cities such as Karbala scattered throughout the Middle East . They can take a backseat in Jerusalem especially when it isn't mentioned in the Koran, not even once.

Jerusalem is the City of David and belongs to Israel for eternity.

 

[Hossfly]

Originally posted by RoccoR
Makes no difference if you are HAMAS or FATAH. To divert from the struggle is, considered treason. To work for a compromise in the name of peace, is no excuse.

The right to live in Western Palestine.

The Alpha and the Omega, the beginning, the middle and the end of the palestinian cause.

Everything else (jewish settlements, a temporary palestinian state in Eastern Palestine, a few inches of West Bank land here, a few there) are perceived by the palestinian people as nothing more than steps towards their ultimate goal.

Is that what you learned in camp this summer, Yousef (AKA as José)? Sure sounds like it. No doubt you managed to memorize all the songs about the ultimate goal of the Palestinians.

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

I'm not sure that we all read the Palestinian policy the same way.

Originally posted by RoccoR
Makes no difference if you are HAMAS or FATAH. To divert from the struggle is, considered treason. To work for a compromise in the name of peace, is no excuse.

The right to live in Western Palestine.

The Alpha and the Omega, the beginning, the middle and the end of the palestinian cause.

Everything else (jewish settlements, a temporary palestinian state in Eastern Palestine, a few inches of West Bank land here, a few there) are perceived by the palestinian people as nothing more than steps towards their ultimate goal.

Is that what you learned in camp this summer, Yousef (AKA as José)? Sure sounds like it. No doubt you managed to memorize all the songs about the ultimate goal of the Palestinians.

(COMMENT)

Do the Palestinian even understand what their goal and objective is?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

et al,

I'm not sure that we all read the Palestinian policy the same way.

The right to live in Western Palestine.

The Alpha and the Omega, the beginning, the middle and the end of the palestinian cause.

Everything else (jewish settlements, a temporary palestinian state in Eastern Palestine, a few inches of West Bank land here, a few there) are perceived by the palestinian people as nothing more than steps towards their ultimate goal.

Is that what you learned in camp this summer, Yousef (AKA as José)? Sure sounds like it. No doubt you managed to memorize all the songs about the ultimate goal of the Palestinians.

(COMMENT)

Do the Palestinian even understand what their goal and objective is?

Most Respectfully,
R

According to their manifestos, charters and chants on the street, they seem to want to make the Jews a distant memory. At least that's how I see it.

 

[member]

"You are a slave, Bloodrock. Like everyone else in America you were born into bondage."

speaking of being born into slavery and bondage & "prison":



Ha ! the ultimate mind-altering-prison-book.

 

[Coyote]

et al,

I'm not sure that we all read the Palestinian policy the same way.

Is that what you learned in camp this summer, Yousef (AKA as José)? Sure sounds like it. No doubt you managed to memorize all the songs about the ultimate goal of the Palestinians.

(COMMENT)

Do the Palestinian even understand what their goal and objective is?

Most Respectfully,
R

According to their manifestos, charters and chants on the street, they seem to want to make the Jews a distant memory. At least that's how I see it.

Chants on the street? Based on what - selected youtube videos?

Public opinion polls of the Palestinians themselves don't support that view.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

et al,

I'm not sure that we all read the Palestinian policy the same way.


(COMMENT)

Do the Palestinian even understand what their goal and objective is?

Most Respectfully,
R

According to their manifestos, charters and chants on the street, they seem to want to make the Jews a distant memory. At least that's how I see it.

Chants on the street? Based on what - selected youtube videos?

Public opinion polls of the Palestinians themselves don't support that view.

Palestinians in Palestinian Authority controlled area don't support the view of making the Jews a distant memory. I am not disputing that, but do you have a link to the public opinion poll?

 

[Coyote]

According to their manifestos, charters and chants on the street, they seem to want to make the Jews a distant memory. At least that's how I see it.

Chants on the street? Based on what - selected youtube videos?

Public opinion polls of the Palestinians themselves don't support that view.

Palestinians in Palestinian Authority controlled area don't support the view of making the Jews a distant memory. I am not disputing that, but do you have a link to the public opinion poll?

Yes, as a matter of fact - there was a good discussion of it here - http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/305000-no-freedom-of-expression-in-gaza-2.html

The link to the polls is here: psr-Ramallah, Palestine

 

[Hossfly]

et al,

I'm not sure that we all read the Palestinian policy the same way.


(COMMENT)

Do the Palestinian even understand what their goal and objective is?

Most Respectfully,
R

According to their manifestos, charters and chants on the street, they seem to want to make the Jews a distant memory. At least that's how I see it.

Chants on the street? Based on what - selected youtube videos?

Public opinion polls of the Palestinians themselves don't support that view.

Heres's some recent polls.

Despite Their Wide Differences, Many Israelis and Palestinians Want Bigger Role for Obama in Resolving Conflict | Pew Global Attitudes Project

 

[toastman]

et al,

I'm not sure that we all read the Palestinian policy the same way.


(COMMENT)

Do the Palestinian even understand what their goal and objective is?

Most Respectfully,
R

According to their manifestos, charters and chants on the street, they seem to want to make the Jews a distant memory. At least that's how I see it.

Chants on the street? Based on what - selected youtube videos?

Public opinion polls of the Palestinians themselves don't support that view.

Are Palestinians in Gaza even allowed to say anything besides the hatred they spew on those selected youtube videos?
For example, are they allowed to say anything good about Jews or Israelis? I doubt it. Just as in the link you just posted, there's no freedom of expression in Gaza, therefore we don't really know their overall opinion. Maybe that's why we sometimes judge the Palestinians based on those selective youtube videos, because that's all there is

 

[Coyote]

According to their manifestos, charters and chants on the street, they seem to want to make the Jews a distant memory. At least that's how I see it.

Chants on the street? Based on what - selected youtube videos?

Public opinion polls of the Palestinians themselves don't support that view.

Are Palestinians in Gaza even allowed to say anything besides the hatred they spew on those selected youtube videos?
For example, are they allowed to say anything good about Jews or Israelis? I doubt it.

Sure they are. I hear them interviewed on NPR news when discussing Israeli/Palistinian issues. I find that more reputable than I do selected videos designed to demonize.

Just as in the link you just posted, there's no freedom of expression in Gaza, therefore we don't really know their overall opinion.

There's a big difference between less freedom of expression and "no freedom of expression". Palestine is not North Korea. I think public opinion polls, which also grant anonymity, are a better predictor of public opinion than selected youtube videos that are difficult to verify and are easily misused to push an agenda. Recall the so-called incident of Palestinians handing out sweets after the Boston bombing? In the end - it came down to an account by one person, no verification or independent confirmation, no photos and in fact the photo that the article used was actually taken months before in celebration of a prisoner release.

Maybe that's why we sometimes judge the Palestinians based on those selective youtube videos, because that's all there is

Or, maybe you judge them on selected youtube videos because it fits people's confirmation bias?

 

[toastman]

Chants on the street? Based on what - selected youtube videos?

Public opinion polls of the Palestinians themselves don't support that view.

Are Palestinians in Gaza even allowed to say anything besides the hatred they spew on those selected youtube videos?
For example, are they allowed to say anything good about Jews or Israelis? I doubt it.

Sure they are. I hear them interviewed on NPR news when discussing Israeli/Palistinian issues. I find that more reputable than I do selected videos designed to demonize.

Just as in the link you just posted, there's no freedom of expression in Gaza, therefore we don't really know their overall opinion.

There's a big difference between less freedom of expression and "no freedom of expression". Palestine is not North Korea. I think public opinion polls, which also grant anonymity, are a better predictor of public opinion than selected youtube videos that are difficult to verify and are easily misused to push an agenda. Recall the so-called incident of Palestinians handing out sweets after the Boston bombing? In the end - it came down to an account by one person, no verification or independent confirmation, no photos and in fact the photo that the article used was actually taken months before in celebration of a prisoner release.

Maybe that's why we sometimes judge the Palestinians based on those selective youtube videos, because that's all there is

Or, maybe you judge them on selected youtube videos because it fits your own confirmation bias?

No, I don't judge them based on that. It's just that the videos that I am referring to are so hate filled, that it really does give the Palestinians a bad name, weather we like it or not.
Maybe you chose to ignore those videos because they fit YOUR agenda

 

[Coyote]

Are Palestinians in Gaza even allowed to say anything besides the hatred they spew on those selected youtube videos?
For example, are they allowed to say anything good about Jews or Israelis? I doubt it.

Sure they are. I hear them interviewed on NPR news when discussing Israeli/Palistinian issues. I find that more reputable than I do selected videos designed to demonize.



There's a big difference between less freedom of expression and "no freedom of expression". Palestine is not North Korea. I think public opinion polls, which also grant anonymity, are a better predictor of public opinion than selected youtube videos that are difficult to verify and are easily misused to push an agenda. Recall the so-called incident of Palestinians handing out sweets after the Boston bombing? In the end - it came down to an account by one person, no verification or independent confirmation, no photos and in fact the photo that the article used was actually taken months before in celebration of a prisoner release.

Maybe that's why we sometimes judge the Palestinians based on those selective youtube videos, because that's all there is

Or, maybe you judge them on selected youtube videos because it fits your own confirmation bias?

No, I don't judge them based on that. It's just that the videos that I am referring to are so hate filled, that it really does give the Palestinians a bad name, weather we like it or not.
Maybe you chose to ignore those videos because they fit YOUR agenda

No...I don't think so. Public opinion polls don't exactly fit my "agenda" either - they offer a broad variety of information some of which doesn't fit my own "confirmation bias" - but it's ALL there (if it's a well done poll) for anyone to read.

Youtube videos can be snipped/altered/misrepresented and often seem to used to make the case that these views are not the views of an extremist minority but rather the views of the majority. So, the question is - WHY is that being done? What is the agenda of the person who wishes to further that impression?

In general - not just in relation to IP, I dislike youtube videos as a means of supporting arguments. It might be that I'm old fashioned and like the printed word, but also - it's far easier to track down context and accuracy in what's written then in a youtube.

 

[toastman]

Sure they are. I hear them interviewed on NPR news when discussing Israeli/Palistinian issues. I find that more reputable than I do selected videos designed to demonize.



There's a big difference between less freedom of expression and "no freedom of expression". Palestine is not North Korea. I think public opinion polls, which also grant anonymity, are a better predictor of public opinion than selected youtube videos that are difficult to verify and are easily misused to push an agenda. Recall the so-called incident of Palestinians handing out sweets after the Boston bombing? In the end - it came down to an account by one person, no verification or independent confirmation, no photos and in fact the photo that the article used was actually taken months before in celebration of a prisoner release.



Or, maybe you judge them on selected youtube videos because it fits your own confirmation bias?

No, I don't judge them based on that. It's just that the videos that I am referring to are so hate filled, that it really does give the Palestinians a bad name, weather we like it or not.
Maybe you chose to ignore those videos because they fit YOUR agenda

No...I don't think so. Public opinion polls don't exactly fit my "agenda" either - they offer a broad variety of information some of which doesn't fit my own "confirmation bias" - but it's ALL there (if it's a well done poll) for anyone to read.

Youtube videos can be snipped/altered/misrepresented and often seem to used to make the case that these views are not the views of an extremist minority but rather the views of the majority. So, the question is - WHY is that being done? What is the agenda of the person who wishes to further that impression?

In general - not just in relation to IP, I dislike youtube videos as a means of supporting arguments. It might be that I'm old fashioned and like the printed word, but also - it's far easier to track down context and accuracy in what's written then in a youtube.

Coyote, I completely agree that youtube videos can be misrepresented, but the videos that I am referring to are simply of an individual(s) , spreading hatred about Jews, Israelis in Arabic with the English subtitles on the bottom. The only way these videos could be misinterpreted is if the translations are incorrect. I think we both know that from the videos me , Roudy and some of the others here have posted from Memri and PMW (and other sources) , the translations are perfectly correct.

Just my point of view

 

[Coyote]

No, I don't judge them based on that. It's just that the videos that I am referring to are so hate filled, that it really does give the Palestinians a bad name, weather we like it or not.
Maybe you chose to ignore those videos because they fit YOUR agenda

No...I don't think so. Public opinion polls don't exactly fit my "agenda" either - they offer a broad variety of information some of which doesn't fit my own "confirmation bias" - but it's ALL there (if it's a well done poll) for anyone to read.

Youtube videos can be snipped/altered/misrepresented and often seem to used to make the case that these views are not the views of an extremist minority but rather the views of the majority. So, the question is - WHY is that being done? What is the agenda of the person who wishes to further that impression?

In general - not just in relation to IP, I dislike youtube videos as a means of supporting arguments. It might be that I'm old fashioned and like the printed word, but also - it's far easier to track down context and accuracy in what's written then in a youtube.

Coyote, I completely agree that youtube videos can be misrepresented, but the videos that I am referring to are simply of an individual(s) , spreading hatred about Jews, Israelis in Arabic with the English subtitles on the bottom. The only way these videos could be misinterpreted is if the translations are incorrect. I think we both know that from the videos me , Roudy and some of the others here have posted from Memri and PMW (and other sources) , the translations are perfectly correct.

Just my point of view

Ok, even given that - why is more weight placed upon those individuals than upon the larger number represented in public opinion polls?

If, for example, those were youtube videos were of some of the extremist Rabbi's spreading their messages of hate - would it be fair to grant them a greater weight than public opinion polls of Israeli society in general?

 

[toastman]

No...I don't think so. Public opinion polls don't exactly fit my "agenda" either - they offer a broad variety of information some of which doesn't fit my own "confirmation bias" - but it's ALL there (if it's a well done poll) for anyone to read.

Youtube videos can be snipped/altered/misrepresented and often seem to used to make the case that these views are not the views of an extremist minority but rather the views of the majority. So, the question is - WHY is that being done? What is the agenda of the person who wishes to further that impression?

In general - not just in relation to IP, I dislike youtube videos as a means of supporting arguments. It might be that I'm old fashioned and like the printed word, but also - it's far easier to track down context and accuracy in what's written then in a youtube.

Coyote, I completely agree that youtube videos can be misrepresented, but the videos that I am referring to are simply of an individual(s) , spreading hatred about Jews, Israelis in Arabic with the English subtitles on the bottom. The only way these videos could be misinterpreted is if the translations are incorrect. I think we both know that from the videos me , Roudy and some of the others here have posted from Memri and PMW (and other sources) , the translations are perfectly correct.

Just my point of view

Ok, even given that - why is more weight placed upon those individuals than upon the larger number represented in public opinion polls?

If, for example, those were youtube videos were of some of the extremist Rabbi's spreading their messages of hate - would it be fair to grant them a greater weight than public opinion polls of Israeli society in general?

Well I never said that these videos have more weight placed on them then opinion polls.
So the way I see it, it's an opinion thing, and you must base your opinion on your choice of different forms of research ....

 

[Hoffstra]

I look forward to Israel giving up the West Bank and the Palestinians giving up their claims on Jewish Palestine.

 

[Hossfly]

I look forward to Israel giving up the West Bank and the Palestinians giving up their claims on Jewish Palestine.

Fat chance, eh what?