AGW: atmospheric physics

[IanC]

you may not have read Marcott's paywalled paper but you have certainly read the media frenzy describing 'warmest temps in 4000 years'. mind you I have not seen any media quoting Marcott as saying the results after ~1800 as "not robust". the very part that the media is interested in is not reliable.

did you read Gergis2012? the southern hemisphere hockeystick? it didnt last long before it was retracted.

 

[IanC]

Iac -

I haven't read Marcott, so aren't going to attempt to discuss the man.

I asked whether you would just accept consensus no matter what, was for a reason.

And I answered that I would accept scientific consenus as long as it matched my firsthand experience of climate. In any situation where the scientific community were so sure, I'd be reluctant to dismiss their claims as lightly as many posters do here, but were scientific opinion to clash with my own experience of the world, I'd probably remain neutral.

I have no political opinion on the science, because I don't think it is a political topic. If the evidence I see around me and scientific opinion shift, I can't imagine not wanting to shift my own position as well.

first hand experience? I bet your first hand experience is more confirmation bias than anything else.

before adjustments, and after adjustments by GISS and GHCN. which Iceland says are unneccesary because they have already corrected their data.

 

[Saigon]

Ian -

Last time I checked, Rejkavik was in Iceland.

Let me know if it has moved.

This is my source of local data: Helsinki - Paikallissää - Ilmatieteen laitos

 

[IanC]

Ian -

Last time I checked, Rejkavik was in Iceland.

Let me know if it has moved.

This is my source of local data: Helsinki - Paikallissää - Ilmatieteen laitos

I would love to show the distorted adjustments made to finnish data but GISS wont allow the public to plot graphs anymore.

no comments on the failed hockey sticks by Marcott and Gergis? or the upsidedown Tiljander proxies used by Mann and carried over into other papers that use Mann as a source?

 

[Saigon]

Ian C -

I have met and interviewed the man responsible for Finnish climate data and was extremely impressed by his integrity and openness. He has an impeccable CV and a background that is hard to fault.

The idea that people like him are faking data is a non-starter.

 

[IanC]

Ian -

Last time I checked, Rejkavik was in Iceland.

Let me know if it has moved.

This is my source of local data: Helsinki - Paikallissää - Ilmatieteen laitos

does that web site graph the historic yearly temps? either from 1881, or 1950 will do. TIA

 

[Saigon]

Ian -

The site also operates in English. There is more historical data elsewhere, which I can link later.

 

[IanC]

Ian C -

I have met and interviewed the man responsible for Finnish climate data and was extremely impressed by his integrity and openness. He has an impeccable CV and a background that is hard to fault.

The idea that people like him are faking data is a non-starter.

who has said he is faking data? I am accusing the big data collection centres like GISS of bad adjustments but I am not accusing them of actually fabricating data.

 

[IanC]

Ian -

The site also operates in English. There is more historical data elsewhere, which I can link later.

sorry but I cannot find historical data on that site. GISS seems to use airport data for Helsinki. they call it Seutula, your site calls it Vantaa, if the gps numbers are correct.

edit- here are two GISS graphs for Helsinki to compare with Finnish data when you find it

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/show_station.cgi?id=614029740000&dt=1&ds=1

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/show_station.cgi?id=614029740000&dt=1&ds=2

 

[Saigon]

Ian -

Seutula means the capital city region, vantaa is the city immediately to the north of Helsinki.

Helsinki's climate is not typical of Finland's, so I wouldn't like to compare the two too closely.

 

[IanC]

Ian -

Seutula means the capital city region, vantaa is the city immediately to the north of Helsinki.

Helsinki's climate is not typical of Finland's, so I wouldn't like to compare the two too closely.

24 hrs later. still no links to Finnish historical temperature data. why not? I thought you wanted it seen so that it could be compared to the global databases?

 

[Saigon]

Ian C

Amazingly enough, I sometimes have to work.

Home - Ilmatieteen laitos

As part of a Centre of Excellence of the Academy of Finland the Finnish Meteorological Institute investigates physical, chemical and biological processes related to climate and climate change. The foundation of this work is the observation program, model development, and scientific expertise of the Finnish Meteorological Institute as well as broad international cooperation. The results of research are applied to the Finnish conditions.

The Finnish Meteorological Institute produces long, homogeneous time series on different climate variables. This is especially important when dealing with phenomena that exhibit changes only in decadal timescales.

When monitoring climate change and air quality of the Northern areas the Finnish Meteorological Institute make use of the concentration measurements of fine particles and greenhouse gases carried out eg. in the Pallas-Sodankylä station. The Finnish Meteorological Institute takes part also in research of air pollution problems in Asia by carrying out ambient air measurements of fine particles in India and China.


Mean temperatures have risen

The annual mean temperature of Finland in the 1981-2010 normal period was almost 0,4 degrees higher compared to the previous normal period of 1971-2000 and approximately 0,7 degrees higher than in the official normal period of 1961-1990. The observed temperature rise is in reasonable agreement with the climate models.

 

[westwall]

I love it, their temp records stop in 1961.

 

[bripat9643]

Ian C -

I have met and interviewed the man responsible for Finnish climate data and was extremely impressed by his integrity and openness. He has an impeccable CV and a background that is hard to fault.

The idea that people like him are faking data is a non-starter.

Appeal to authority.

You were "impressed?" Well, that should certainly be enough to convince even the most hardened skeptics.

 

[SSDD]

Ian C -

I have met and interviewed the man responsible for Finnish climate data and was extremely impressed by his integrity and openness. He has an impeccable CV and a background that is hard to fault.

The idea that people like him are faking data is a non-starter.

And generally speaking when serial killers are caught, their neighbors identify them as the "nicest people in the world"

 

[westwall]

Ian C -

I have met and interviewed the man responsible for Finnish climate data and was extremely impressed by his integrity and openness. He has an impeccable CV and a background that is hard to fault.

The idea that people like him are faking data is a non-starter.

And generally speaking when serial killers are caught, their neighbors identify them as the "nicest people in the world"

How true! Sad but true!

 

[Saigon]

Ian C -

I have met and interviewed the man responsible for Finnish climate data and was extremely impressed by his integrity and openness. He has an impeccable CV and a background that is hard to fault.

The idea that people like him are faking data is a non-starter.

Appeal to authority.

You were "impressed?" Well, that should certainly be enough to convince even the most hardened skeptics.

It was enough to convince me that he knew more about science than you do.

I have not named him here and am not suggesting anyone else trust him or use him as a source - but one of the best ways to understand these topics is to go and talk to genuine experts, so when I found I had some questions about climate change I tracked down the most qualified physisicst I could find and spent an hour talking with him.

Rather than argung over and over and over again against information, you might benefit from exposure to some learning yourself.

 

[IanC]

Ian C

Amazingly enough, I sometimes have to work.

Home - Ilmatieteen laitos

As part of a Centre of Excellence of the Academy of Finland the Finnish Meteorological Institute investigates physical, chemical and biological processes related to climate and climate change. The foundation of this work is the observation program, model development, and scientific expertise of the Finnish Meteorological Institute as well as broad international cooperation. The results of research are applied to the Finnish conditions.

The Finnish Meteorological Institute produces long, homogeneous time series on different climate variables. This is especially important when dealing with phenomena that exhibit changes only in decadal timescales.

When monitoring climate change and air quality of the Northern areas the Finnish Meteorological Institute make use of the concentration measurements of fine particles and greenhouse gases carried out eg. in the Pallas-Sodankylä station. The Finnish Meteorological Institute takes part also in research of air pollution problems in Asia by carrying out ambient air measurements of fine particles in India and China.


Mean temperatures have risen

The annual mean temperature of Finland in the 1981-2010 normal period was almost 0,4 degrees higher compared to the previous normal period of 1971-2000 and approximately 0,7 degrees higher than in the official normal period of 1961-1990. The observed temperature rise is in reasonable agreement with the climate models.

you just posted up the same website as before! where are the historical numbers? i would prefer it in graphs but numerical data is fine.

 

[Saigon]

Ian C

That site is the official source of climate information. I know it is not great, but many other sites are not in English. When I have time I'll have a look around.

 

[polarbear]

Ian C -

I have met and interviewed the man responsible for Finnish climate data and was extremely impressed by his integrity and openness. He has an impeccable CV and a background that is hard to fault.

The idea that people like him are faking data is a non-starter.

And generally speaking when serial killers are caught, their neighbors identify them as the "nicest people in the world"

How true! Sad but true!

Take a look at the insanity:
Cyprus is the latest domino in the EU crisis:
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/energiegesetz-zypern-soll-geldstrafe-zahlen-a-890257.html

Zypern soll Geldstrafe zahlen

The entire EU is heading for bankruptcy despite all the soviet style central planning in Brussels.
Let me re-phrase that to because of all the soviet style central planning.
No sane/rational thinking person would be able to cook up such nonsense unless you look it up in Marx` or Engels` communist bibles how to fuck up an entire continent.
The only thing these non-elected bureaucrats can come up with is to punish Cyprus on behalf of the UN`s IPCC for not implementing "green energy" quota...which an already bankrupt Cyprus is supposed to pay for with tax subsidies.
Energiegesetz: Zypern soll Geldstrafe zahlen - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Die EU-Kommission will eine Geldstrafe gegen das Land verhängen. Der Grund: Zypern habe ein Gesetz zur Förderung erneuerbarer Energien nicht umgesetzt

Dem krisengeschüttelten Zypern droht eine Geldstrafe von der EU: Rund 11.400 Euro täglich will die EU-Kommission dem Land abverlangen, weil es ein EU-Gesetz zur Förderung erneuerbarer Energien nicht umgesetzt hat.

Auch Polen bringt die EU-Kommission wegen des Gesetzes zur Förderung erneuerbarer Energien vor den EuGH. Hier schlägt sie eine Geldstrafe von täglich rund 133 200 Euro vor

So already bankrupt Cyprus is supposed to pay a "fine" to the tune of 11 400 Euros per day...and Poland is supposed to pay 133 200 Euros per day.

That`s how the green energy money-suction machine works.
No matter where you live in Europe the EU sucks up the green "Carbon" money through your local government and the IPCC that got these idiots to sign the Kyoto accord gets it`s share. From there a smaller share goes to countries in Africa where people shit in the middle of a village, or the like, mostly countries ruled by corrupt dictators who sit in the UN "human rights" and on the environment council. And all they do with all that money is buy more Kalashnikovs for their military which keeps them in power. All the while communist China is burning coal and oil like gangbusters, sells cheap Kalashnikov replicas made in China and sells solar panels made in communist China for Obama`s green power dream. The more we get punished by the IPCC for burning oil, the easier it is for the Chinese to get it..Example Canada...
You can see that flag flying in our Alberta oil fields already because Obama keeps blocking the Keystone Pipeline from Alberta to Texas:

http://www.albertaoilmagazine.com/2013/01/albertans-leery-of-chinese-investment-in-the-oil-patch/

Get used to China in the oil sands: former diplomat

'We can't develop the oil sands alone.'
The survey was conducted in July, before CNOOC Ltd.’s $15.1-billion proposal for Nexen Inc. was approved. Albertans may be more averse now than they were then to Chinese investment, but Houlden says Chinese state-owned companies aren’t a lot different than other foreign operators in Alberta.

and China`s energy cost portion in manufacturing is as a result a fraction of the cost as it is in the USA today.
If global warming was real then we would not need economic sanctions or military action to topple these dictators, all we would have to do is keep driving our SUV`s to ruin them and China....while our crop yields in Canada for sure, would skyrocket at the same time.
Canada does not need any help to develop it`s own resources. There just aren`t enough Canadians to burn all that oil, gas and coal and use up all the hydro-electric power we produce..
But we would like it very much if we would not have to wait for a truck to bring us oranges from California and instead could grow them locally...so if AGW was real most Canadians would do their best to get a big "CO2 warming bang" out of our buck along with our oil revenue$..!
For over a decade now winter has been starting earlier and hangs in longer...Starting in early October lasting till the end of May. We had to genetically engineer our ("Durham") wheat so that it is frost resistant. Else we would have had to import wheat for the last 15 years from the US and Australia, countries that can harvest 2 crops every year. The climate has gotten so cold that there are no more apple or other fruit tree orchards any more in central Canada and the only areas that remain, where we can grow vegetables outdoors are along a on a short and narrow stretch of warm pacific coast in southern BC and a few spots in the Okanagan valley. You can`t even grow grapes that are fit for regular wine in the Okanagan any more. Since ~ 10 years they developed a "frost" wine when the grapes froze on the branch,... just so they don`t go bankrupt like the farmers in central Canada which had to re-locate their grow-ops into heated indoor acres on trays.
All the while useful idiots like "Saigon" keep posting these idiotic temperature graphs that the IPCC discarded years ago.
They have been holding meetings in Hobart Australia since February to "explain" in September why them temps have stalled despite the CO2 increase.
In Canada we are quite sure that here the temperature increase has not just stalled but took a pretty severe dive in the last 10 years