Am I losing my faith or just becoming more realistic?

[JoeB131]

Yes. Also answer what might make it good back in prehistoric times. Have you ever considered that corporations paying workers minimum wage today might be our form of "slavery"? Stop thinking solely in terms of southern plantations...which did not exist in prehistoric times.

Here's the difference. You can walk away from a job you don't like at any time. Slaves didn't have that option.

No, there's no excuse for a "Good" God endorsing slavery other than he didn't exist, and was just a construct used by men to keep other men in line.

"Better be a good slave, or God is gonna getcha!"

How many birth and death days from that time period are known to us today? If you correctly respond, "Very few" then does that mean very few people actually lived in that era?

No, it means they just weren't important. Jesus was supposedly the most important guy ever.... Yet the Gospels can't agree on whether he was born before 4 BCE (Matthew) or around 6 CE. They can't agree which year he was crucified. I always find the term "Gospel Truth" funny because the Gospels disagree with each other on key points.

 

[Meriweather]

Here's the difference. You can walk away from a job you don't like at any time.

Yes, and the corporation can just hire another slave, thus this form of slavery continues. Kind of like people of the past selling themselves into slavery for a certain length of time to get through hard times.

 

[Meriweather]

No, there's no excuse for a "Good" God endorsing slavery other than he didn't exist, and was just a construct used by men to keep other men in line.

It isn't God who endorsed slavery anymore than it is God who endorses corporate minimum wage for the poor while greedy CEOs rake in millions. Jews simply believed that God wanted them to treat slaves better...to the point that over time, Jews did not keep slaves. As you do not know what times and slavery was like in those days, who are you to judge. People often confuse slavery in Biblical times with slavery on American plantations a few hundred years ago.

Once more, God works with the individual spirit, not in a national government.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, and the corporation can just hire another slave, thus this form of slavery continues. Kind of like people of the past selling themselves into slavery for a certain length of time to get through hard times.

If you can quit, it's not slavery. Lots of inequity in our employment system, but it's not slavery.

It isn't God who endorsed slavery anymore than it is God who endorses corporate minimum wage for the poor while greedy CEOs rake in millions. Jews simply believed that God wanted them to treat slaves better...to the point that over time, Jews did not keep slaves.

Actually, no, most of the rules for slavery in the Bible was protections for Hebrews who happened to find themselves in slavery. The pagans the bought at Slave-Mart didn't have any protections, that was kind of the thing.

As you do not know what times and slavery was like in those days, who are you to judge. People often confuse slavery in Biblical times with slavery on American plantations a few hundred years ago.

Like Most Xians, you are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to say the Bible is a source for moral law and guidence, except for the parts that offend modern sensibilities, then that's just for that time.

Okay. Works for me. All your silly laws about homosexuality. That was for THOSE times. Going to Church? That was for those times. See how that works.

 

[Meriweather]

Like Most Xians, you are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to say the Bible is a source for moral law and guidence, except for the parts that offend modern sensibilities, then that's just for that time.

Okay. Works for me. All your silly laws about homosexuality. That was for THOSE times. Going to Church? That was for those times. See how that works.

It is not a matter of having it "both ways". It is a matter of understanding society and God's role in the midst of society. I noted that at the time of Exodus, slavery was a fact of life on this planet. No one knows exactly how it started, but it seems clear judging from later customs that it may have begun either as payment (one person owed another, and they worked it off--not having money in those days. The other possibility is that war played a part: Either kill the enemy, or to be more humane, make them servants (slaves). I also noted that under God's Law, by the time of the current era most Jews eschewed slavery altogether.

Now, you seem to want God to have gotten on His loudspeaker and announced to the planet slavery is wrong. Yet, you (an example of a human being) already know it is wrong. We also know that their is human trafficking (slavery) still being done today, even though those people also know it is wrong, even if you were to televise to them it is wrong. You seem to think you, today, are the only person over time to realize that whatever slavery once was, what it became, whenever that was, is wrong. So wrong, that in the end people were willing to die to end it (and to preserve the Union).
You want things to work in an instant. Slavery is abolished/ended in an instant; people who are sick are cured in an instant; people have all they need in an instant. God reveals Himself in an instant.

Since you brought up homosexuality. Most of the last part of Genesis deals with sexuality. How things turn out when one is not true to one's spouse; what happens when homosexuality becomes prevalent; etc. The lessons that are being conveyed is when society, as a whole, begins a wide acceptance of loose sexual mores and morals, look for that society to begin its decline. It is simply a Biblical observation, that to succeed a society needs to remain disciplined.

Our own society did not become undisciplined in sexual matters when homosexuality became an issue. We became undisciplined in sexual matters with divorce and openly living together prior to marriage. Why wouldn't homosexuals want this same 'freedom'?

Where it may be more rightly said that some Christians want it both ways is if that Christian community approves of divorce and living together before marriage, but then does not want the same 'openness' in sexuality to extend beyond heterosexual unions. Doesn't work that way. Discipline for all, or discipline for none is how it generally works.

 

[JoeB131]

It is not a matter of having it "both ways". It is a matter of understanding society and God's role in the midst of society. I noted that at the time of Exodus, slavery was a fact of life on this planet. No one knows exactly how it started, but it seems clear judging from later customs that it may have begun either as payment (one person owed another, and they worked it off--not having money in those days. The other possibility is that war played a part: Either kill the enemy, or to be more humane, make them servants (slaves). I also noted that under God's Law, by the time of the current era most Jews eschewed slavery altogether.

That statement would indicate that God just "Showed up" at some point, rather than having created man and been with him from the very beginning. If anything, we KNOW the bibilical origin of slavery, in Genesis 9, when Ham sees Noah naked after the guy got falling down drunk, and Noah cursed Ham's children with servitude. (Later on, people would insist that Ham was the ancestors of Africans, therefore slavery of black people was okay. the Mormons would take it further and say Ham was cursed with dark skin, because they were obsessed with that kind of thing.)

Now, you seem to want God to have gotten on His loudspeaker and announced to the planet slavery is wrong. Yet, you (an example of a human being) already know it is wrong. We also know that their is human trafficking (slavery) still being done today, even though those people also know it is wrong, even if you were to televise to them it is wrong. You seem to think you, today, are the only person over time to realize that whatever slavery once was, what it became, whenever that was, is wrong. So wrong, that in the end people were willing to die to end it (and to preserve the Union).
You want things to work in an instant. Slavery is abolished/ended in an instant; people who are sick are cured in an instant; people have all they need in an instant. God reveals Himself in an instant.

First, human trafficking isn't the same as chattel slavery. It's not endorsed by the state. Second, um, yeah, if you have an all-powerful sky pixie who can command stuff, that should have been higher on his "To Do" list than "Don't eat pork" and "Make sure your robes have a blue trim", which were things God took time out of his busy schedule of running a universe to tell the Hebrews to do.

Since you brought up homosexuality. Most of the last part of Genesis deals with sexuality. How things turn out when one is not true to one's spouse; what happens when homosexuality becomes prevalent; etc. The lessons that are being conveyed is when society, as a whole, begins a wide acceptance of loose sexual mores and morals, look for that society to begin its decline. It is simply a Biblical observation, that to succeed a society needs to remain disciplined.

Um, yeah, here's the thing. This is one of those wonderful things that really doesn't match up with History. Rome didn't fall because everyone was having orgies. Rome fell because Empires fall. It's last couple of centuries, it was a Christian Empire, and it still declined despite "morals".

Our own society did not become undisciplined in sexual matters when homosexuality became an issue. We became undisciplined in sexual matters with divorce and openly living together prior to marriage. Why wouldn't homosexuals want this same 'freedom'?

You mean the freedom of actually not having one spouse be property?

Where it may be more rightly said that some Christians want it both ways is if that Christian community approves of divorce and living together before marriage, but then does not want the same 'openness' in sexuality to extend beyond heterosexual unions. Doesn't work that way. Discipline for all, or discipline for none is how it generally works.

Oh, I agree, this is another case of "God didn't change his mind, so we changed ours."

Back in the 1970's, when my cousin lived with her boyfriend before they finally got married, it was a HUGE scandal in our very Catholic family. Now it's the norm, most members of the next generation lived together before they tie the knot. It's actually not even that bad of an idea. Let's find out if you really are compatible before you make that kind of commitment.

The churches don't scream about this the way they are STILL screaming about homosexuality, though.

 

[Meriweather]

That statement would indicate that God just "Showed up" at some point,

No, it doesn't. It indicates that God has been here from the beginning, and that He works very slowly, quietly, and gently. He takes mankind as they are and works from there.

 

[Meriweather]

First, human trafficking isn't the same as chattel slavery. It's not endorsed by the state.

Slavery existed before the "state". Further, have you noticed that the state runs after what people are doing--pretty much sanctioning anything and everything after-the-fact. Divorce, homosexuality, abortion, and marijuana are prime examples. When the people no longer want something, it simply takes the state awhile to catch up...slavery, for example.

 

[Meriweather]

Um, yeah, here's the thing. This is one of those wonderful things that really doesn't match up with History. Rome didn't fall because everyone was having orgies. Rome fell because Empires fall. It's last couple of centuries, it was a Christian Empire, and it still declined despite "morals".

You missed the point. The point is that empires fall due to lack of discipline. One indicator of this lack of discipline is sexual mores.

 

[Meriweather]

You mean the freedom of actually not having one spouse be property?

Another thing about a change in language...context. When one has 'property' one is responsible for its care. If you think that women were ever down-trodden by mere males, do some genealogy. The women in my family crossed the Atlantic on their own several times, traveled through the wilderness without an escort, managed property (including the plowing of land while pregnant), were executors of wills, had their own small businesses. Take a look at Proverbs 31 some time.

 

[Meriweather]

The churches don't scream about this the way they are STILL screaming about homosexuality, though.

Shrug. You see the screaming. I have never experienced it. Quite the opposite.

 

[JoeB131]

No, it doesn't. It indicates that God has been here from the beginning, and that He works very slowly, quietly, and gently. He takes mankind as they are and works from there.

Or he doesn't exist, and he just becomes the useful excuse for whatever we want to do at the time.

Slavery existed before the "state". Further, have you noticed that the state runs after what people are doing--pretty much sanctioning anything and everything after-the-fact. Divorce, homosexuality, abortion, and marijuana are prime examples. When the people no longer want something, it simply takes the state awhile to catch up...slavery, for example.

I think you are a little confused. Slavery can't exist without the state. Otherwise, the slaves can just say, "Fuck this shit" and leave.

You missed the point. The point is that empires fall due to lack of discipline. One indicator of this lack of discipline is sexual mores.

No, empires fall because eventually, people get sick of being ruled by other people. You look at the collapse of any empire, it's usually the cause. Nothing to do with morals at all.

Another thing about a change in language...context. When one has 'property' one is responsible for its care. If you think that women were ever down-trodden by mere males, do some genealogy. The women in my family crossed the Atlantic on their own several times, traveled through the wilderness without an escort, managed property (including the plowing of land while pregnant), were executors of wills, had their own small businesses. Take a look at Proverbs 31 some time.

Yawn... sorry, the Bible was really great at keeping women down to a point where no Christian woman today would want to live like that. Not even the Mormons.

Shrug. You see the screaming. I have never experienced it. Quite the opposite.

Really? Hey, check out some of the homophobic rants by people like Bob Blaylock and other homophobes...

 

[Meriweather]

I think you are a little confused.

Not at all. Joe, have you ever considered doing careful research of any of the times you are speaking of? You were born in the Twentieth Century and you act like our era is how it has been from the beginning of time. Times change, meaning life was different then, people thought differently then, people struggled with a different economy then. No modern conveniences. The fact that you think bondsmen/slaves back in ancient times could just wander away and survive on their own is telling.

All of this is besides the main point which is God works with each individual be that person talented or untalented; employee or employer; educated or not. God works with our spirits, not with our physical bodies or even our minds. I think our spirits may possess more power than we credit.

It is up to us as individuals, it is our purpose as individuals, to make the life around us hopefully better than it was before we came on the scene. It appears you want someone to change the planet. I look at the perimeters of my own world, as small as that might be, and ask, "What can I do right here in this place? Send me."

 

[JoeB131]

Not at all. Joe, have you ever considered doing careful research of any of the times you are speaking of? You were born in the Twentieth Century and you act like our era is how it has been from the beginning of time. Times change, meaning life was different then, people thought differently then, people struggled with a different economy then. No modern conveniences. The fact that you think bondsmen/slaves back in ancient times could just wander away and survive on their own is telling.

Sure they could have, except you had whole bodies of law for capturing and tormenting slaves. It's why the Bible goes into LOTS of detail on how slaves are to be treated.

All of this is besides the main point which is God works with each individual be that person talented or untalented; employee or employer; educated or not. God works with our spirits, not with our physical bodies or even our minds. I think our spirits may possess more power than we credit.

There is no God. There are no spirits. There is just the here and now. Now, mind you, if the only thing keeping you and other Xians from going on a rampage of murder and general awfulness is a fear of your Invisible Sky Friend, by all means, keep believing in that.

It is up to us as individuals, it is our purpose as individuals, to make the life around us hopefully better than it was before we came on the scene. It appears you want someone to change the planet. I look at the perimeters of my own world, as small as that might be, and ask, "What can I do right here in this place? Send me."

Oh, no, I realize the only people who can change the planet is us. Our biggest obstacle is stupid people who believe that a Sky Fairy has a purpose and don't take action.

 

[Meriweather]

Sure they could have, except you had whole bodies of law for capturing and tormenting slaves. It's why the Bible goes into LOTS of detail on how slaves are to be treated.

YES! As I mentioned ad nauseum it was because people lived in a society where slaves/servants were already an economic reality. Slavery is NOT mentioned in the Ten Commandments which were all based on love of God and love of neighbor. THESE laws eventually had Jews among the first to eschew slavery. This is not difficult to understand. You already understand that you, yourself, would not own a slave. Why is it so hard to hear that the majority of other people down through the ages think just like you?

 

[Meriweather]

There is no God. There are no spirits. There is just the here and now. Now, mind you, if the only thing keeping you and other Xians from going on a rampage of murder and general awfulness is a fear of your Invisible Sky Friend, by all means, keep believing in that.

Your belief that there is no God or no spirits does not change the reality which I have experienced. If the atheist 'holier than thou' despite non-belief keeps them from going on a rampage of murder and general awfulness, than may you keep that holier than thou attitude.

MY belief and my experience (based on the number of atheists in my own family--and based on my experience as a teacher--is that people, on the whole, are good. The greatest majority have the capacity to love and to receive love.

 

[Meriweather]

Oh, no, I realize the only people who can change the planet is us. Our biggest obstacle is stupid people who believe that a Sky Fairy has a purpose and don't take action.

Some people do not understand that Revelation is centered on the actions against Christians by the first century Roman government. All everyone (believer and non-believer) need to understand about God is that He works with what IS. He does not create the natural disasters, pandemics, our own cruelties to one another, He simply works to make all things new, to make all things good. We can help one another in day-to-day life by doing the same.

 

[JoeB131]

YES! As I mentioned ad nauseum it was because people lived in a society where slaves/servants were already an economic reality. Slavery is NOT mentioned in the Ten Commandments which were all based on love of God and love of neighbor. THESE laws eventually had Jews among the first to eschew slavery. This is not difficult to understand. You already understand that you, yourself, would not own a slave. Why is it so hard to hear that the majority of other people down through the ages think just like you?

Actually, nothing in the Bible "eschews" slavery. Contrary to popular myth, the Hebrews weren't slaves, the Egyptians just wouldn't let them practice their own religion in their land. (Actually, that's a myth, too. there's no evidence that the Hebrews ever lived in Egypt. This is a small Kingdom with a temple the size of a barn being jealous of their rich, prosperous neighbor's huge Temple Cities to their animal-headed gods.)

Some people do not understand that Revelation is centered on the actions against Christians by the first century Roman government. All everyone (believer and non-believer) need to understand about God is that He works with what IS. He does not create the natural disasters, pandemics, our own cruelties to one another, He simply works to make all things new, to make all things good. We can help one another in day-to-day life by doing the same.

He doesn't create those things because he's too busy "Not existing". Yes, you can look at the Book of Revelations for what it is, anti-Roman propaganda, even through the Romans were far more tolerant of the Christians than they deserved.

Here's how we can help each other... stop believing in magic sky pixies telling us what kind of sex to have and demanding money all the time.

 

[JoeB131]

Your belief that there is no God or no spirits does not change the reality which I have experienced.

That's true.. But those are the delusions in your head and we have medications for that now.

If the atheist 'holier than thou' despite non-belief keeps them from going on a rampage of murder and general awfulness, than may you keep that holier than thou attitude.

Naw, what keeps me from going on rampages is that killing another human being would be wrong. I'm very capable of it, the Army trained me very well. But it would be wrong unless my life was in direct danger.

MY belief and my experience (based on the number of atheists in my own family--and based on my experience as a teacher--is that people, on the whole, are good. The greatest majority have the capacity to love and to receive love.

My experience is that most people are kind of awful, really. That's why we need laws to keep them in line. Frankly, looking at the past few weeks, I would say my opinion of humanity has found a new floor.

 

[Meriweather]

Actually, nothing in the Bible "eschews" slavery.

You will notice I did not say 'Bible', I said Jews...you know, those people who properly understand what the Old Testament teaches. I am pointing to their actions.