Amanda Knox/Guilty Again

[Missourian]

They will put my body in the ground before I ever put it under the jurisdiction of an Italian court.

Then don't go to Italy.

Exactly.

 

[emilynghiem]

But, she was originally found guilty. There was still enough evidence to retry her after the acquittal/ mistrial. I'll ask you the same question I asked Emily...what is the motivation for Italy to frame Knox?

Hi N: It wasn't Italy. It was specific prosecutors.
I believe they truly had some issue with Knox, didn't trust her, and didn't trust her bungled stories that changed.

Once they had it set in their minds she was guilty of something,
they didn't want to back down from that, especially once it got out in public.

Look at our politicians, left and right, very few are able to back down or admit publicly
they changed their minds unless they can put a political spin on it.

So there is more motivation to keep with the same story because it is publicized
and etched in people's minds that way;
and LESS or NO motivation to change it.

It would be embarrassing and they would suffer serious legal and political consequences
if it is proven that they were wrong. So they go with their original statement and stance.
The path of least resistance.

Our whole legal and justice system has this same problem.
Once people take a stance, they cannot change it or they suffer legal consequences.

Once this issue got so polarized and especially when the Kercher Family believed that Knox and Sollecito are complicit in the crime, no one is going to go against that poor family.

Even Amanda in defending herself is trying to be respectful of their wishes and has to watch what she says in public legally because of the situation.

There is practically NO HOPE to change the perception unless the Kercher Family has a change of heart and they make it SAFE for the prosecution and others to change as well.

For that to happen, we'd probably have to have the level of "Truth Commissions" as what Mandela set up in South Africa. The people who committed political crimes even killings were given amnesty provided they come completely clean with the truth, and there are reconciliation and restitution provisions set up to heal the communities affected by violence.

Rudy Guede and the prosecution team that made any mistakes, by accident or deliberately bypassing or neglecting evidence, would have to be given full amnesty or immunity in exchange for correcting all the false statements and perceptions. Everyone would have to agree not to punish them, or they have no motivation to change their stories. The legal and political ramifications are too great, so they have to continue believing or acting like they believe, and let "other people" take responsibility for correcting anything erroneous.

Our legal and justice systems PUNISH people for admitting any wrongs, so this is what we get. Take the fifth amendment, say the minimal it takes to cover yourself, and leave the rest for other people to prove and/or hope they don't.

 

[emilynghiem]

What again, is the motivation for the Italian court system to create an international incident over framing Amanda Knox for murder? What is the risk/reward factor?

I will admit, I did not follow this case...I just don't think invalidating a finding by the Italian court system is necessary in this case. Of course, if she were being tried in a non-allied nation or canada, my opinion would be different. But, Italy is a friend and they have given Knox every legal courtesy she deserves. My opinion, from the facts that I have seen, she is guilty...or at the very least complicit in one way or the other.

Hi Nutz: I answered your other post asking basically the same thing as here.
I also can see why people would believe Knox was 'guilty of something'
and it probably has more to do with her irresponsible drug use that impaired her
judgment and ability to defend her character and explain her circumstances.

All the proof about the lack of any trace of Knox or Sollecito
ANYWHERE in Meredith's room, but all the traces were from Rudy Guede,
should have easily cleared this case.

But once she and Sollecito were honest that they were together "getting high"
or whatever, then nothing she said is going to have any credibility next to the
law enforcement no matter how politically corrupted or excessive they are in prosecution.

The same thing happens with any drug cases; people biased against drug users (or against illegal immigrants or black thugs) will excuse/bypass ANY evidence or complaints of corrupt/abusive law enforcement and just take it out on that person, regardless of their guilt or innocence, just to make sure someone is punished to the degree that brings a sense of justice. We want to see justice so badly, we will accept whatever we can get.

Here is Amanda's statements on her blog:
Amanda Knox

I emailed and invited her to come post here directly.
She is busy writing and going back to school, but if she replies
and agrees to join the discussion, I will post my letter to her that I emailed.

If her lawyers say no, this is going to cause problems, of course she may not
be able to interact freely in public while her case is pending.

I think that is BS but the legal system is convoluted that way, the bureaucratic process
does as much to obstruct free speech, due process and right to petition.

I prefer conflict resolution and mediation to reach a consensus, and support reconciliation directly with the Kercher Family, and Rudy Guede, to get the stories straight at the source.

The media and politics of the justice system cannot play people and exploit conflicts like this
if people resolve these directly! So that is what I support, even though it goes against
a tidal wave of political pressure to keep rallying for and against both sides in conflict.
Our whole political system and media thrive on this.

The whole drug war, and issues with immigration are also backlogged because of politics.
Innocent victims of crime and trafficking are suffering while war is waged in the media.

 

[Nutz]

What again, is the motivation for the Italian court system to create an international incident over framing Amanda Knox for murder? What is the risk/reward factor?

I will admit, I did not follow this case...I just don't think invalidating a finding by the Italian court system is necessary in this case. Of course, if she were being tried in a non-allied nation or canada, my opinion would be different. But, Italy is a friend and they have given Knox every legal courtesy she deserves. My opinion, from the facts that I have seen, she is guilty...or at the very least complicit in one way or the other.

Hi Nutz: I answered your other post asking basically the same thing as here.
I also can see why people would believe Knox was 'guilty of something'
and it probably has more to do with her irresponsible drug use that impaired her
judgment and ability to defend her character and explain her circumstances.

All the proof about the lack of any trace of Knox or Sollecito
ANYWHERE in Meredith's room, but all the traces were from Rudy Guede,
should have easily cleared this case.

But once she and Sollecito were honest that they were together "getting high"
or whatever, then nothing she said is going to have any credibility next to the
law enforcement no matter how politically corrupted or excessive they are in prosecution.

The same thing happens with any drug cases; people biased against drug users (or against illegal immigrants or black thugs) will excuse/bypass ANY evidence or complaints of corrupt/abusive law enforcement and just take it out on that person, regardless of their guilt or innocence, just to make sure someone is punished to the degree that brings a sense of justice. We want to see justice so badly, we will accept whatever we can get.

Here is Amanda's statements on her blog:
Amanda Knox

I emailed and invited her to come post here directly.
She is busy writing and going back to school, but if she replies
and agrees to join the discussion, I will post my letter to her that I emailed.

If her lawyers say no, this is going to cause problems, of course she may not
be able to interact freely in public while her case is pending.

I think that is BS but the legal system is convoluted that way, the bureaucratic process
does as much to obstruct free speech, due process and right to petition.

I prefer conflict resolution and mediation to reach a consensus, and support reconciliation directly with the Kercher Family, and Rudy Guede, to get the stories straight at the source.

The media and politics of the justice system cannot play people and exploit conflicts like this
if people resolve these directly! So that is what I support, even though it goes against
a tidal wave of political pressure to keep rallying for and against both sides in conflict.
Our whole political system and media thrive on this.

The whole drug war, and issues with immigration are also backlogged because of politics.
Innocent victims of crime and trafficking are suffering while war is waged in the media.

Emily, what I will do is independently learn as much as I can about the case and consider your points.

I realize you say that the motivation is corruption, but don't you think once this became an international incident, it became much bigger than the alleged corrupt prosecutor?

Italy has very strict drug laws, Knox is old enough to understand cause and effect. She was a visitor in another country, and she blatantly ignored their laws and customs...isn't that the same issues we have with foreigners in the US? But then again, this is a murder case and not a debate on illicit drug laws and how drug use is portrayed in the media.

 

[Esmeralda]

They will put my body in the ground before I ever put it under the jurisdiction of an Italian court.

Then don't go to Italy.

Exactly.

They are gonna really miss you.



I think they are making a mistake, that they have some kind of obsession with her. At the same time, the American court system has also made a fool of itself too, such as the OJ trial. It doesn't mean the entire American legal system is useless.

 

[emilynghiem]

Emily, what I will do is independently learn as much as I can about the case and consider your points.

I realize you say that the motivation is corruption, but don't you think once this became an international incident, it became much bigger than the alleged corrupt prosecutor?

Italy has very strict drug laws, Knox is old enough to understand cause and effect. She was a visitor in another country, and she blatantly ignored their laws and customs...isn't that the same issues we have with foreigners in the US? But then again, this is a murder case and not a debate on illicit drug laws and how drug use is portrayed in the media.

Yes and as long as it is publicized on that worldwide level, there is even more and more pressure to stick with the original prosecution and keep fighting to save face.

People have a resistance to change, and will defer to
* the family of the victim, the Kerchers and their opinion
* the government in charge, here the prosecutor who keeps pushing
for justice in terms of punishing Knox and Sollecito

Note: the issue with drug use is not literally a legal issue, but it is part of the social bias against the image of young Americans being irresponsible and loose or whatever. it is more a PERSONAL bias that the media hype exploited.

As long as Knox and Sollecito are seen in the media as symbols of whether there is "justice for Kercher"
then public sentiment and pressure will be in this direction.

The most profound statement I ever read about this phenomena of "wanting justice"
was by a UH Sociologist who wrote a book on "Benign Bigotry" and how people's
views of justice get skewed. She explains that all people have a natural desire and sense of justice, we WANT to believe there is justice in the world in order to feel secure. It is too disturbing to think innocent people can suffer gross injustice without cause, so if there isn't something we can explain, we will find the most convenient reason and blame that. We don't mean to be ugly in "blaming" the rape victim, but if it makes sense that a woman got raped because she was out by herself, or wearing loose clothing, it makes it easier to blame those circumstances for "why it happened to her." We want to know it just wasn't random, but things happen for a reason we can understand and prevent so we feel safer.

With the murder and rape of Meredith Kercher that was so atrociously violent, the public wants to see justice, the family and now the world wants to see justice.
So if the choices offered are to impose long sentences on three people, we want to see the maximum justice delivered out of respect for the victim and family, who also believe this.

To be totally honest, I still see Knox in the same negative light. I really do fault her and the whole culture for promoting "recreational drug use" as something optional and not causing any harm. But when it clouds your judgment, what all can go wrong. And what if no one believes you after that?

I can totally see why people would use this opportunity to pound on her as an easy target, where all the emotions people have can be targeted toward her (as with George Zimmerman who was taking additional hits for all the things his case represented in all other cases of young black men getting profiled collectively).

She made herself an easy target, and once everything went down that path it's almost impossible to reverse.
Because it would take "so much work" to correct the record, that's another reason people will override conflicts, and resolve "cognitive dissonance" by attacking and dismissing credibility of contrary sources.

She would probably need to reconcile directly with the Kercher Family, with experienced mediators and spiritual counselors, to get past all the negative media hype, biases and barriers.
If they did the work to resolve the conflicting stories, then everyone else would be more apt to follow their lead. But NOT supercede them and go with a different story.
People will take the easiest path, which is to go along with what the Prosecution and Kercher Family believes out of respect for them, to keep the sense of law and order in society.

I think someone who might relate to her is Samuel Reese Sheppard who suffered a lifetime of injustice from his father Sam Sheppard being railroaded for the murder of the wife/mother

Once the public perception is engrained, and punishment becomes a symbol of justice,
it may take an Act of God to change that.

I might email him and ask if he has tried contacting Amanda Knox. He is now a peace activist working to promote restorative justice, reconciliation and restitution in response to murder, and might help facilitate some kind of counseling for the families.

I just know change happens from the inside out.
So whatever is going on "within" these families or between the people in conflict,
that has to change if there is going to be external change reflected publicly.

The more there is healing and forgiveness, this creates more avenues
to overcome conflicts and make changes toward truth and justice.

If the families can find healing and unity, then the rest of the world will follow.

 

[wavingrl]

I don't know what I expected from the Amanda Knox interview on CNN last night but am no more informed today than yesterday.

They hit all the high points. She has to wait and hope that a different ruling will result--knowing that this would be exceptional.

I suppose I am not qualified to judge the Italian judicial process but--without compelling forensic evidence--I don't understand their reasoning. It was stressed that 'circumstantial evidence' was a major factor in linking Knox and her boyfriend to this murder.

And the use of illegal drugs and the persona developed by the media for Knox during the trial.

If the supreme court rules 'guilty' again--she will never be free. I suppose there are complex procedures involving extradition between Italy and the US but to have to face a future with those prospects is a sentence in itself.

The individual who was convicted and has provided so much testimony in this phase is eligible for release this year, having served six years.

No--I don't understand the Italian judicial system.

 

[Nutz]

[MENTION=22295]emilynghiem[/MENTION]

Looks like Knox' alibi is bye-bye.

Amanda Knox: CCTV Casts Doubt Over Alibi

 

[emilynghiem]

If it were that easy, why didn't Raffaele "roll over" on Amanda to save himself?

She could be walking anywhere at any time, and still not have been involved in the killing.

I'd like to know how everyone "glossed over" the fact that no DNA or other forensic trace could be found in Meredith's room connecting Raffaele or Amanda to the scene (and that is why the prosecution jumped all over the potentially-contaminated bra clasp and the knife or knives found elsewhere to have something that had DNA of Amanda or Raffaele.

If one or both people "planned" this crime with Rudy Guede, why couldn't anyone get one to roll over on the other? Very strange.

Seems like a case of guilty until proven innocent, instead of proving guilt.
(the minute there is "anything" that seems inconsistent AGAINST Amanda, people use that to justify assumptions of guilt;
but what about all the other "inconsistencies" that are being glossed over? (Like how only Guede's DNA and prints are in the room.) Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?
Just because there are suspicions doesn't make you guilty; but if there is ANY QUESTION, any CONFLICTING information the OTHER WAY, that creates room for "reasonable doubt",
then it is POSSIBLE to be innocent, right? So it is not proven "beyond reasonable doubt".)

The only person with clearly proven guilt "beyond reasonable doubt" is Rudy Guede who had left behind tons of traces and tracks.
If they can't prove HIS motive (as he SAID the sex was consensual and "other people" did the crime not him); If they give HIM the benefit of the doubt, why not apply the same standard
to Amanda and Raffaele who are even more doubtful than Rudy as to being involved or present at all?

Why wasn't there any DNA for the other two people if anyone else was there besides Rudy?

If the prosecution was THAT out to get them, couldn't they have found more than a contaminated bra clasp they had to return to the scene to get after it was disturbed?

Is that really ALL they could find if they were after her like bloodhounds?

[MENTION=22295]emilynghiem[/MENTION]

Looks like Knox' alibi is bye-bye.

Amanda Knox: CCTV Casts Doubt Over Alibi

Thanks, Nutz, keep it up. I've become more open minded about this case,
where before I just as soon let these kids suffer the consequences of their misjudgment.
But this goes too far with excessive cruelty and hurting the victims' family this way.
Everyone in this case deserves peace and to know and agree on the truth.

If this case is being used as a catalyst to push for judicial corrections to the process,
may God be with all the people who have been suffering through this, and lift them up.
May all people become more understanding and more inspired to prevent injustice in the future at all stages where things otherwise go wrong and lead to clusterFU like this mess.

Blessings of peace, understanding, clarity and truth to all who question this case!

 

[Nutz]

The thing is, she lied about her alibi. Why would she do that?

As for not rolling over on each other, why would they? They have everyone fooled...and nobody wants to be a rat, especially if you are complicit in the crime.