America Before the Entitlement State

[Foxfyre]

Beat that dead horse. The Founders at the inception of this Republic already knew it was wrong. They set up the means that eventually it would be done away with. Sadly it cost the lives of over 618,000 American lives to put to rest.

YOU should be a little more studied on your history, and be ashamed at your attempt at deflection.

And without the citizen farmers laying down their plows and picking up their firearms, the government would not have been able to accomplish it. The U.S. in no way had a standing army sufficient to do it. Nor would the Emancipation Proclamation have carried any weight if a majority of Americans opposed it nor would the farmers have picked up those weapons if they didn't believe in the cause.

The most staunch statist leftists can't imagine a people who govern themselves. Such a concept is alien and disturbing to them. A government that serves the people instead of the other way around is unimaginable. Unalienable rights that exist apart from government decree unthinkable.

I'm not sure how we arrives at the sorry state of the government being seen as the Mother and Father authority figure by so many, but until we turn that around we will never again see the virtues that existed before we had an entitlement state.

Some of us actually were taught these things and know thier value and know how to juxtapose it with other models of history and the condition of mankind...and come to the conclusion that what we have is the best man has ever come up with, and sit scratching our heads as to why anyone would want, or demand less as they seek to destroy what they had been given.

Why would anyone snatch liberty from the jaws of tyranny? Is it that they don't wish to be accused of being self-centered for thier own liberty? Selfish perhaps?

It is what they have been taught. In America before government entitlements, there were a few beggars, but most people fully expected to work for what they received. Even the homeless of those days didn't expect the government or anybody else to provide them with food, shelter, transportation, healthcare, etc. They showed up at our back doors offering to split and stack wood, weed the garden, paint the barn, slop the hogs, clean out the chicken house, or do any chores we might have in return for supper on the porch and maybe a few vittles for their rucksack as they went on their way. Sometimes they would ask to sleep in the shed or barn when the weather was inclimate. They would not accept the food and shelter without working for it though.

These days we're told by the leftist do gooders that it is mean and harms people's self esteem to expect them to do manual labor for what they receive. Before government entitlements it hurt people's self esteem to accept charity without working for it.

But now we have a whole subset of society who have been conditioned and fit with blinders so they don't see that they are taking the hard earned wages of others when they receive government entitlements. They have been taught that it is the collectives money, the governments money, that is doled out according to the needs of those receiving it.

They were never taught that such a mindset is pure Marxism.

 

[Steelplate]

Also he is overlooking that fact that a substantial number of Americans already get their healthcare furnished courtesy of the rest of us, and if Obamacare should somehow survive the supreme court, another 40 to 50 million Americans--we won't even talk bout the illegals--will be added to that with the rest of us picking up the bill.

That isn't collective payment. That is dependents feeding on the national tit. Something that didn't happen before the time of federal entitlements.

Really? let's have a look... OK? How many people in this country don't have jobs? How many of them are the truly "lazy" that don't want to work? One thing you guys are good at is taking a relatively small number of people and turning it into this huge insurmountable problem.

Lastly... I've already made my mind known that I am for a "work for Welfare" program. Kind of like the Civilian Conservation Corps in the Depression Era. Lots of people found real, lasting work through programs like that. It will:

A. Create an incentive for people on Public Assistance to find work(if you have to work for the bare bones existence that Welfare provides... you are more likely to get off of it)

B. Give the VERY FEW people who have made welfare a career choice and really don't know how to work valuable experience and a work history...making them more employable.

C. Get rid of the stigma(public perception) and Hopelessness(personal perception) that being on Public Assistance breeds. They would both have a sense of empowerment of earning their own paycheck, and because they are working for their benefits... they can tell people who put them down to fuck off and actually have a legitimate right to say it.

Sure.. there will always be some people who will never be truly productive... the disabled, the mentally ill, the Developmentally Disabled, the hopelessly addicted... but by and large... those people who do "nothing" and take from those who do will be few and far between.

Geez, you may have set a new record for straw men and non sequiturs in that response without addressing a single thing in the post you were addressing.

You DO know that if YOU don't pay for the healthcare or any other government benefit that you receive that somebody else does have to pay that for you? You DO understand that, yes? It doesn't just materialize out of thin air because you're a good guy or just because you're down on you luck for now. Other people have to give up money they worked damn hard for in order for you not to have to pay for what you received.

And guess what? The government has long run out of other people's money now. $15 trillion in debt or averaged out to $133,000 per American household and increasing by billions every single day. The days before entitlement? Yes there were hard times. There still are. But then we had hope of digging ourselves out of whatever hole we were in and just about every ablebodied American could hold on to that truth. These days it is looking more and more bleak to be able to do that.

Strawman? If I'm not mistaken, you're the one that mentioned the government tit.

I do help pay for my healthcare, I also contribute to my pension...and you talk to me about strawmen?

This is so simple.... the MORE people you have employed, the MORE tax revenues you have. The MORE people who are earning good paychecks, the MORE they will spend and make those all so important privately owned companies profits.

You guys want to start at the top and let it trickle down... we know after 30 years of it that it doesn't work...well, it did somewhat in the beginning.... but Greed at the top fucked up what was a noble, but naive ideology. No... what we have to do is build from the bottom up. Get people's standard of living up so that they can afford more than the bare minimum + the Occasional small luxury(the $500 flat screen TV that they had to scrimp all year for).

You want to get this country back to where it was? Empower our working class.

You do that, the economy will recover and that debt that your so worried about will have a much better chance of getting paid. Are cuts necessary? Sure... but not UNTIL you do the first part... because then those programs won't be nearly as NEEDED and they will be ripe for cutting.

how about our military/Industrial Complex? are we ready to Cut there too? I think now that we've lost our last big threat in the 80's(the USSR), we could easily scale back our military and it's suppliers. Perhaps those incredibly innovative Companies could refocus their skills onto developing sustainable, renewable energy.

If they would do that, the Government could still help subsidize their R&D....obviously not to the extent that we did when they made weapons.

All it takes is the will.

 

[Full-Auto]

You guys want to start at the top and let it trickle down.

The fact of the matter is you dont have a fucking clue.

 

[francoHFW]

And without the citizen farmers laying down their plows and picking up their firearms, the government would not have been able to accomplish it. The U.S. in no way had a standing army sufficient to do it. Nor would the Emancipation Proclamation have carried any weight if a majority of Americans opposed it nor would the farmers have picked up those weapons if they didn't believe in the cause.

The most staunch statist leftists can't imagine a people who govern themselves. Such a concept is alien and disturbing to them. A government that serves the people instead of the other way around is unimaginable. Unalienable rights that exist apart from government decree unthinkable.

I'm not sure how we arrives at the sorry state of the government being seen as the Mother and Father authority figure by so many, but until we turn that around we will never again see the virtues that existed before we had an entitlement state.

Some of us actually were taught these things and know thier value and know how to juxtapose it with other models of history and the condition of mankind...and come to the conclusion that what we have is the best man has ever come up with, and sit scratching our heads as to why anyone would want, or demand less as they seek to destroy what they had been given.

Why would anyone snatch liberty from the jaws of tyranny? Is it that they don't wish to be accused of being self-centered for thier own liberty? Selfish perhaps?

It is what they have been taught. In America before government entitlements, there were a few beggars, but most people fully expected to work for what they received. Even the homeless of those days didn't expect the government or anybody else to provide them with food, shelter, transportation, healthcare, etc. They showed up at our back doors offering to split and stack wood, weed the garden, paint the barn, slop the hogs, clean out the chicken house, or do any chores we might have in return for supper on the porch and maybe a few vittles for their rucksack as they went on their way. Sometimes they would ask to sleep in the shed or barn when the weather was inclimate. They would not accept the food and shelter without working for it though.

These days we're told by the leftist do gooders that it is mean and harms people's self esteem to expect them to do manual labor for what they receive. Before government entitlements it hurt people's self esteem to accept charity without working for it.

But now we have a whole subset of society who have been conditioned and fit with blinders so they don't see that they are taking the hard earned wages of others when they receive government entitlements. They have been taught that it is the collectives money, the governments money, that is doled out according to the needs of those receiving it.

They were never taught that such a mindset is pure Marxism.

You believe in a dreamworld that never existed, dittohead. Read "The Good Old Days- They Were Terrible!" and get a clue.

 

[Steelplate]

You guys want to start at the top and let it trickle down.

The fact of the matter is you dont have a fucking clue.

Bullshit... that's the whole premise of "trickle down", or Supply side economics. Give more and more to the wealthy and they'll trickle down.... they promise.

Perhaps I don't have a clue...maybe I think that you are just a fool who believes it... perhaps you knew all along that "trickle down" was a sham to bust unions, lower wages and destroy the middle class.

That's how evil y'all are.

 

[daveman]

Quote: Originally Posted by daveman
I've been told recently that there is no one claiming that government healthcare will cover more people with the same number of healthcare professionals at a lower cost.

Guess you didn't get that memo, huh?

You "heard" a lot of Pubcrappe, dittohead.

Tell that to your fellow traveler EriktheRed:

You know what's funny?

The people who are saying "Private insurance companies ration health care now!" simultaneously believe that government healthcare, covering millions more people with the same number of health care professionals, won't ration health care.

Um, no, actually no one has said that at all, numbnuts.

The White House did, you moron.

Dumbass.

 

[daveman]

Who granted freedom to the slaves?

Government or the private sector?

They inherently had freedom. Government took it away from them.

They inherently had private owners who would whip them if they ran away

...with the government's blessing.

Every human being is born with rights. Governments take away those rights to varying degrees.

I really don't know what's so hard to understand about that. But then, I don't look to government for salvation.

 

[Ernie S.]

Ummm... because you seem to worship Mel Gibson... an anti-semite and a racist? Seems like that flies in the face of Liberty.

Let me ask you something.... how much MORE liberty would we have if we didn't have to worry about health care? How much MORE would your employer be able to increase your wages because he/she no longer had to provide it? How much would that potential increase in pay help your situation?

That's just ONE example. I think you have a flawed or skewed definition of "liberty". And no... paying taxes is not Communism or dictatorship... that's bullshit logic.

If he worships Mel Gibson, what does your avatar say about you? Do you worship drug addicts?

 

[Full-Auto]

You guys want to start at the top and let it trickle down.

The fact of the matter is you dont have a fucking clue.

Bullshit... that's the whole premise of "trickle down", or Supply side economics. Give more and more to the wealthy and they'll trickle down.... they promise.

Perhaps I don't have a clue...maybe I think that you are just a fool who believes it... perhaps you knew all along that "trickle down" was a sham to bust unions, lower wages and destroy the middle class.

That's how evil y'all are.

Just what I thought all talking points and not a fucking clue.

 

[francoHFW]

Oh for chrissake, everyone knows the problem is voodoo, Grover Norquist, and a tax system that panders to the greedy rich and greedy corps- the gd country is falling apart...Myopia rocks! And corrupt bubbles...Un-American (TIME) a-holes and their silly arrogant dupes....

 

[Full-Auto]

Oh for chrissake, everyone knows the problem is voodoo, Grover Norquist, and a tax system that panders to the greedy rich and greedy corps- the gd country is falling apart...Myopia rocks! And corrupt bubbles...Un-American (TIME) a-holes and their silly arrogant dupes....

Yet you continue to support democrats that not only are culpable with murder but also insisted all the bank execs got big bonuses.

 

[francoHFW]

Dave, change the GD channel...

Dumbass.

 

[Foxfyre]

Some of us actually were taught these things and know thier value and know how to juxtapose it with other models of history and the condition of mankind...and come to the conclusion that what we have is the best man has ever come up with, and sit scratching our heads as to why anyone would want, or demand less as they seek to destroy what they had been given.

Why would anyone snatch liberty from the jaws of tyranny? Is it that they don't wish to be accused of being self-centered for thier own liberty? Selfish perhaps?

It is what they have been taught. In America before government entitlements, there were a few beggars, but most people fully expected to work for what they received. Even the homeless of those days didn't expect the government or anybody else to provide them with food, shelter, transportation, healthcare, etc. They showed up at our back doors offering to split and stack wood, weed the garden, paint the barn, slop the hogs, clean out the chicken house, or do any chores we might have in return for supper on the porch and maybe a few vittles for their rucksack as they went on their way. Sometimes they would ask to sleep in the shed or barn when the weather was inclimate. They would not accept the food and shelter without working for it though.

These days we're told by the leftist do gooders that it is mean and harms people's self esteem to expect them to do manual labor for what they receive. Before government entitlements it hurt people's self esteem to accept charity without working for it.

But now we have a whole subset of society who have been conditioned and fit with blinders so they don't see that they are taking the hard earned wages of others when they receive government entitlements. They have been taught that it is the collectives money, the governments money, that is doled out according to the needs of those receiving it.

They were never taught that such a mindset is pure Marxism.

You believe in a dreamworld that never existed, dittohead. Read "The Good Old Days- They Were Terrible!" and get a clue.

Oh I am quite sure the world I described existed because I lived in it. I am quite sure that I witnessed and experienced and was taught a sense of character and integrity and personal responsibility that did not include an entitlement mentality. And I am reasonably certain that I have read more on that period than you most likely have. The difference between us is that I haven't read all socialist/Marxist authors and I was educated before the government started meddling with education. Makes a huge difference.

 

[Ernie S.]

Dave, change the GD channel...

Dumbass.

Franko Change the GD website...

Dumbass.

 

[Wiseacre]

There was no sense of entitlement, no concept of being owed money, healthcare, what have you. That's the way it used to be, everyone was expected to work and earn their keep one way or another.

 

[francoHFW]

It is what they have been taught. In America before government entitlements, there were a few beggars, but most people fully expected to work for what they received. Even the homeless of those days didn't expect the government or anybody else to provide them with food, shelter, transportation, healthcare, etc. They showed up at our back doors offering to split and stack wood, weed the garden, paint the barn, slop the hogs, clean out the chicken house, or do any chores we might have in return for supper on the porch and maybe a few vittles for their rucksack as they went on their way. Sometimes they would ask to sleep in the shed or barn when the weather was inclimate. They would not accept the food and shelter without working for it though.

These days we're told by the leftist do gooders that it is mean and harms people's self esteem to expect them to do manual labor for what they receive. Before government entitlements it hurt people's self esteem to accept charity without working for it.

But now we have a whole subset of society who have been conditioned and fit You lived in Ronnie Raygun's demented 1890's????with blinders so they don't see that they are taking the hard earned wages of others when they receive government entitlements. They have been taught that it is the collectives money, the governments money, that is doled out according to the needs of those receiving it.

They were never taught that such a mindset is pure Marxism.

You believe in a dreamworld that never existed, dittohead. Read "The Good Old Days- They Were Terrible!" and get a clue.

Oh I am quite sure the world I described existed because I lived in it. I am quite sure that I witnessed and experienced and was taught a sense of character and integrity and personal responsibility that did not include an entitlement mentality. And I am reasonably certain that I have read more on that period than you most likely have. The difference between us is that I haven't read all socialist/Marxist authors and I was educated before the government started meddling with education. Makes a huge difference.

You lived in Ronnie Raygun's demented 1890's???? LOL!!

You lived before voodoo made education and health care crazy expensive? So other countries out compete us? You lived in the fifties when the rest of the world was destroyed and couldn't compete?? So did I.

Now we need NHC and cheap education and training to compete...and demand produced by paying workers their fair share. And btw, THIS IS THE SECOND PUB GREAT DEPRESSION, the problem is not lazy people, it's thieving greedy Pubs and their idiot dupes.


Idiot. LOL

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

You believe in a dreamworld that never existed…

Indeed, and never will.

Reactionaryism has always proven dangerous to a nation, and the bane of conservative utopianism is no different in this one.

 

[Steelplate]

Ummm... because you seem to worship Mel Gibson... an anti-semite and a racist? Seems like that flies in the face of Liberty.

Let me ask you something.... how much MORE liberty would we have if we didn't have to worry about health care? How much MORE would your employer be able to increase your wages because he/she no longer had to provide it? How much would that potential increase in pay help your situation?

That's just ONE example. I think you have a flawed or skewed definition of "liberty". And no... paying taxes is not Communism or dictatorship... that's bullshit logic.

If he worships Mel Gibson, what does your avatar say about you? Do you worship drug addicts?

No, It is a cartoon depicting America's addiction to oil... I thought you guys were supposed to be intelligent. Look not only at T's avatar, but his sig... he's obsessed.

 

[Steelplate]

You guys want to start at the top and let it trickle down.

The fact of the matter is you dont have a fucking clue.

Bullshit... that's the whole premise of "trickle down", or Supply side economics. Give more and more to the wealthy and they'll trickle down.... they promise.

Perhaps I don't have a clue...maybe I think that you are just a fool who believes it... perhaps you knew all along that "trickle down" was a sham to bust unions, lower wages and destroy the middle class.

That's how evil y'all are.

Just what I thought all talking points and not a fucking clue.

wow... talking points? I think the fact that I am posting more than dumb one-liners like yourself indicates that YOU are the one without a fucking clue and have no answers because your brainwashed mindset can't compute an alternative viewpoint other than your own.

 

[Steelplate]

It is what they have been taught. In America before government entitlements, there were a few beggars, but most people fully expected to work for what they received. Even the homeless of those days didn't expect the government or anybody else to provide them with food, shelter, transportation, healthcare, etc. They showed up at our back doors offering to split and stack wood, weed the garden, paint the barn, slop the hogs, clean out the chicken house, or do any chores we might have in return for supper on the porch and maybe a few vittles for their rucksack as they went on their way. Sometimes they would ask to sleep in the shed or barn when the weather was inclimate. They would not accept the food and shelter without working for it though.

These days we're told by the leftist do gooders that it is mean and harms people's self esteem to expect them to do manual labor for what they receive. Before government entitlements it hurt people's self esteem to accept charity without working for it.

But now we have a whole subset of society who have been conditioned and fit with blinders so they don't see that they are taking the hard earned wages of others when they receive government entitlements. They have been taught that it is the collectives money, the governments money, that is doled out according to the needs of those receiving it.

They were never taught that such a mindset is pure Marxism.

You believe in a dreamworld that never existed, dittohead. Read "The Good Old Days- They Were Terrible!" and get a clue.

Oh I am quite sure the world I described existed because I lived in it. I am quite sure that I witnessed and experienced and was taught a sense of character and integrity and personal responsibility that did not include an entitlement mentality. And I am reasonably certain that I have read more on that period than you most likely have. The difference between us is that I haven't read all socialist/Marxist authors and I was educated before the government started meddling with education. Makes a huge difference.

Really? you were alive and aware of Politics and the state of America before FDR? Methinks your full of shit.