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Or was it done through intimidation by a court order against the 99%, that which interpreted the law in the way that they see it or interpret it as, and this be it on any specific occasion or issue, yet going against the millions who may or would have seen it otherwise? I ask again, did society support her or were they against her ?Did society back her up? We would need a poll or a vote to find out that information now wouldn't we?
Oh you don't want that vote, because it might make you look bad if the opposite were to be the case.
No, we don't need a vote. We already know society backed her up and the banner was removed. It was not done because she was in the majority, it was done because she was right
Yes you are right, if one can afford that, but for those who have to go to public schools, why can't there be a consensus among the parents and the staff in that public school, to give the whole student body in a majority, an experience there in which is suitable for that school, the culture existing within the area, and the wants of the citizens, staff and community without government intrusion?
If you can't afford a Christian school, why not teach Christian values at home rather than force them on non-Christians simply because you have them out voted?
The Constitution was never intended to grant you freedom from religion, only freedom OF religion. You don't have a right not to be offended.
Exacty the way I feel about it also.. ThanksIf my son went to school in Dearborn, Michigan what protections would he need offered?
Exactly my point.
That depends on how you view it. As an atheist her "religion" is the absence of religion, thus she is being accommodated to practice those beliefs at the expense of the majority who don't share her views and are having expression suppressed.
If that were the case, any public area that has no religious symbols would be considered a pro-atheist area. An atheist is not pushing his beliefs in those areas. People have a right to not be subjected to others religious beliefs in a school environment
Look, we can go back and forth with this all day long, but the bottom line is this was never the intent of the so-called "Establishment Clause" and whether or not you're willing to admit it, I think you know that. Religion was displayed on public and government property for almost 200 years without any issue, including during the time of the men who actually wrote the Constitution. This didn't become an issue until activist judges under the guise of being "progressive" suddenly decided all on their own that this violated people's rights and the American people were too preoccupied in their own little bubbles to fight back against it before it was too late. Now we have these absurd decisions considered as precedent, even though no such intent ever existed.
You are ignoring the whole of the problems we have that stem from this kind of thing, in which we have been having now with the failed public school system to date, and is now the reasoning for what has now been put upon the table in regards to freedom of choice, as to either go to charter schools and/or etc.Yes you are right, if one can afford that, but for those who have to go to public schools, why can't there be a consensus among the parents and the staff in that public school, to give the whole student body in a majority, an experience there in which is suitable for that school, the culture existing within the area, and the wants of the citizens, staff and community without government intrusion?
Because rights are not determined by consensus, and rights and the law must be applied consistently among all cultures, comminutes, counties/parishes, and the states.
There is tremendous failure and abuse caused by people who defend this sort of thing going on in the system, regardless of the reality of the situation it causes on the ground, but who cares about our children failing and being abused, just as long as the devils keep us towing the line and living with the status quoe of failure.
Yeah, we need more brats in America who say "to hell with the rest of you, I'm gonna force my beliefs on you!"
Yea, athism is a belief and they are much more forceful in their preaching than any Christian including the nuts like Jerry Falwell.
So, all laws are good? Was slavery good? It was a law, and not by the majority, only 5% of this country owned slaves.
There is nothing in the constitution to ban religion…
…only to prevent the government from establishing one.
You have no freedom from religion, only freedom of religion.
The court was wrong in this case.
The Constitution was never intended to grant you freedom from religion, only freedom OF religion. You don't have a right not to be offended.
Nothing would be forced upon another, but quite the contrary would be the case.. It would mean that for those who voted in a majority upon a specific issue, and in union upon said specific issue, it would then allow for a good work to be obtained for those who voted upon that specific issue, and this would be so that there would be no abuse by others upon them afterwards, and this for those whom had voted for their right not to be abused by others per that vote taken afterwards... Some of the things that have been allowed now, or have been done or undone in this nation, well the jury (the people) are still out on many of them, and will remain out on them until all the evidence is finally in.
Gigantic non sequitor.You've heard of whiteflight from our public schools? Well most black parents I know who think they can't homeschool their kids are even saving their money so they can get their kids out of the public school and send them to private schools for highschool. That's how bad our schools are thanks to taking religion out of schools.
Threatening people in the name of Jesus. I bet He's proud.One girl has forced her will on the rest of the school and she's surprised she's now has threats against her?
Yeah, she'd learn that some people out there are more than happy to punish her for standing up for her rights.You force me to do something, I'm gonna do more than threat. Heck, I'd ask her to pay for the banner plus interest and then take her shopping and make sure the class of 1963 picks out something they can give to the school that she aproves of, then I'd make her get the aproval of each and every one of the other kids at the school before buying it and giving it to the school. Maybe then she'd learn something. Yeah, I know, how terrible I am for threatening to take the girl shopping and force her to pay restitution for forcing the school to remove a banner that's been there for 49 years in honor of the 1963 graduating class and worse, find something that doesn't offend anyone, yeah, she'd get a lesson.
In a nutshell, positive law is man-made law, assuming that all rights are based upon society or some other man-made construct. Natural law says that there is a body of rights that humans have simply by being human, given to us by our Creator.I don't so please tell me, I am all ears..Do you know the difference between positive law and natural law? If so, please tell me what you think it is.
The two ideas are pretty much mutually exclusive.
And what kind of America do we have now by your standards ? That is scary also, but we have to deal with it don't we?Your interpretation os the first amendment is just plain scary
You actually favor VOTING on which rights others are allowed to have? Where would civil rights have been if people could vote on which rights blacks should have? The majority of Christians can vote on whether a mosque should be allowed to be built? Non-Christians should be forced to participate in Christian activities because you VOTED on it?
I am so glad that my America is nothing like the America you want us to be
I was around in 1963. We have a much more moral America
In 1963
- Americans were spitting on black schoolchildren for trying to go to a public school
- Gays were afraid to admit their homosexuality because they could be beaten and police would do nothing about it
- Women could be beaten by their husbands and it was shrugged off as a domestic issue
- Women were openly harassed in the workplace
- Business could openly dump toxic chemicals in our air and rivers
- Christians would force non-Christian children to participate in christian prayer
- We assassinated our president in front of his wife
Gigantic non sequitor.You've heard of whiteflight from our public schools? Well most black parents I know who think they can't homeschool their kids are even saving their money so they can get their kids out of the public school and send them to private schools for highschool. That's how bad our schools are thanks to taking religion out of schools.
Threatening people in the name of Jesus. I bet He's proud.One girl has forced her will on the rest of the school and she's surprised she's now has threats against her?
Yeah, she'd learn that some people out there are more than happy to punish her for standing up for her rights.You force me to do something, I'm gonna do more than threat. Heck, I'd ask her to pay for the banner plus interest and then take her shopping and make sure the class of 1963 picks out something they can give to the school that she aproves of, then I'd make her get the aproval of each and every one of the other kids at the school before buying it and giving it to the school. Maybe then she'd learn something. Yeah, I know, how terrible I am for threatening to take the girl shopping and force her to pay restitution for forcing the school to remove a banner that's been there for 49 years in honor of the 1963 graduating class and worse, find something that doesn't offend anyone, yeah, she'd get a lesson.
Did society back her up? We would need a poll or a vote to find out that information now wouldn't we?
Oh you don't want that vote, because it might make you look bad if the opposite were to be the case.
Look, we can go back and forth with this all day long, but the bottom line is this was never the intent of the so-called "Establishment Clause"
Did society back her up? We would need a poll or a vote to find out that information now wouldn't we?
Oh you don't want that vote, because it might make you look bad if the opposite were to be the case.
Thats the core of the rule of law in a Constitutional Republic that the minority neednt depend upon the majority for acknowledgement of its rights.
Look, we can go back and forth with this all day long, but the bottom line is this was never the intent of the so-called "Establishment Clause"
Case law in support?
Otherwise this is subjective opinion only.
That is not why the suit was initiated, nor the reasoning given by that or any court on this subject.No, she'd learn how hard it is to not offend ANYONE. And that in the end, no one is grated the right not to be offended.
That's why it is still on currency.In your mind, yes. What's next, banning Currency in School, until "Trust in God" is removed? Should the word "God" be stricken from all Public Literature too? Use of the word God is not an Establishment of one Religion or Sect over another.
It is the kind of phony cleverness that you espouse here, that has put this nation in the pickle that it is in, and that my friend is ashame.Or was it done through intimidation by a court order against the 99%, that which interpreted the law in the way that they see it or interpret it as, and this be it on any specific occasion or issue, yet going against the millions who may or would have seen it otherwise? I ask again, did society support her or were they against her ?No, we don't need a vote. We already know society backed her up and the banner was removed. It was not done because she was in the majority, it was done because she was right
It seems the 99% was intimidating the 1%
If she had asked nicely, would they have taken the banner down?
The law hasn't changed since 1962. No prayer in public school. The 13 year old girl was right and the 99% was wrong
There is a saying...
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for supper
Just because you are in the majority doesn't mean you get to vote away the rights of a minority
Majority status still does not matter. It won't matter regardless how many times you repeat it.It is the kind of phony cleverness that you espouse here, that has put this nation in the pickle that it is in, and that my friend is ashame.Or was it done through intimidation by a court order against the 99%, that which interpreted the law in the way that they see it or interpret it as, and this be it on any specific occasion or issue, yet going against the millions who may or would have seen it otherwise? I ask again, did society support her or were they against her ?
It seems the 99% was intimidating the 1%
If she had asked nicely, would they have taken the banner down?
The law hasn't changed since 1962. No prayer in public school. The 13 year old girl was right and the 99% was wrong
When I was in elementory school, we said a small prayer before lunch (no big deal), and 100% agreed to that back then in that school, which made it a non-issue back then, but even so it could be based upon what we are talking about today. Next I went to middle school where none of these things were practiced, and it was like entering into the wild west, where anything goes or went.. The first thing that happened to me was a person bumped into me and stole my wallet, then next I saw two boy's walking in the hallway like they were boyfriend and girlfriend, then I missed the bus and got beat down by a group of black kids playing basketball, and this happened among other abuses I suffered within a tense black and white situation that was going on back then in that school. In this school the blacks were in the majority, and the whites were in the extreme minority at that time, and they (the blacks) didnot like what the government had forced on them to come to their school either.... Talk about a culture shock and a seperation from what I had been raised on and believed in up until that point....Wow... Oh and no I was not raised to be a racist, and the situations in that school didnot make me a racist either ( I am much smarter than that), so don't even go there.. I was just a poor kid at the time, that had no choices in the matter, so I had to deal with the cards that were delt to me back then.. Later some of my best friends were black, well really before then they were also, but that was only because their families were in the military, where as they were different than the ones who had grown up around the local areas it seemed.
The government by force caused every bit of the abuse I suffered to happen to me on the black and white issue, but they hide their hands upon this fact now, and still act as if only a certain group found under the civil rights laws or movement, are the only ones that have ever been abused in this nation, but I beg to differ with them or have proof to say otherwise to this very day on that note. I would tell them that yes also white kids were victims of revenge & worse racism at that time period just as well, and this in the forced exchange of cultures in which we were all subject to when the lines were redrawn back then, and all in order to accomodate the exchange. I'm living proof of that time period with my own personal story, but we won't go there any further now...
All I am saying is that God or Christianity in some form, fashion or another, seems to help sooth all these problems to some extent, and if allowed in a well balanced and un-intrusive way, be it by a vote sometimes if nessesary, then maybe some of the problems we are having even unto this very day, would then recede and be more non-avasive within our societies.
There are people who are from all walks of life right now in America, that want to experience the fullness of the American experience for their children and themselves, and yes a small or large amount of God and Christianity for some is also a part of that experience just as well.. So are we to deny them a vote on such matters, and instead just say to them that it is not allowed ever, even when a majority within a school, or otherwise might say that they are A-OK with it in a non-intrusive way such as with this banner ?
It is the kind of phony cleverness that you espouse here, that has put this nation in the pickle that it is in, and that my friend is ashame.Or was it done through intimidation by a court order against the 99%, that which interpreted the law in the way that they see it or interpret it as, and this be it on any specific occasion or issue, yet going against the millions who may or would have seen it otherwise? I ask again, did society support her or were they against her ?
It seems the 99% was intimidating the 1%
If she had asked nicely, would they have taken the banner down?
The law hasn't changed since 1962. No prayer in public school. The 13 year old girl was right and the 99% was wrong
When I was in elementory school, we said a small prayer before lunch (no big deal), and 100% agreed to that back then in that school, which made it a non-issue back then, but even so it could be based upon what we are talking about today. Next I went to middle school where none of these things were practiced, and it was like entering into the wild west, where anything goes or went.. The first thing that happened to me was a person bumped into me and stole my wallet, then next I saw two boy's walking in the hallway like they were boyfriend and girlfriend, then I missed the bus and got beat down by a group of black kids playing basketball, and this happened among other abuses I suffered within a tense black and white situation that was going on back then in that school. In this school the blacks were in the majority, and the whites were in the extreme minority at that time, and they (the blacks) didnot like what the government had forced on them to come to their school either.... Talk about a culture shock and a seperation from what I had been raised on and believed in up until that point....Wow... Oh and no I was not raised to be a racist, and the situations in that school didnot make me a racist either ( I am much smarter than that), so don't even go there.. I was just a poor kid at the time, that had no choices in the matter, so I had to deal with the cards that were delt to me back then.. Later some of my best friends were black, well really before then they were also, but that was only because their families were in the military, where as they were different than the ones who had grown up around the local areas it seemed.
The government by force caused every bit of the abuse I suffered to happen to me on the black and white issue, but they hide their hands upon this fact now, and still act as if only a certain group found under the civil rights laws or movement, are the only ones that have ever been abused in this nation, but I beg to differ with them or have proof to say otherwise to this very day on that note. I would tell them that yes also white kids were victims of revenge & worse racism at that time period just as well, and this in the forced exchange of cultures in which we were all subject to when the lines were redrawn back then, and all in order to accomodate the exchange. I'm living proof of that time period with my own personal story, but we won't go there any further now...
All I am saying is that God or Christianity in some form, fashion or another, seems to help sooth all these problems to some extent, and if allowed in a well balanced and un-intrusive way, be it by a vote sometimes if nessesary, then maybe some of the problems we are having even unto this very day, would then recede and be more non-avasive within our societies.
There are people who are from all walks of life right now in America, that want to experience the fullness of the American experience for their children and themselves, and yes a small or large amount of God and Christianity for some is also a part of that experience just as well.. So are we to deny them a vote on such matters, and instead just say to them that it is not allowed ever, even when a majority within a school, or otherwise might say that they are A-OK with it in a non-intrusive way such as with this banner ?
That's how bad our schools are thanks to taking religion out of schools.
The Post Hoc Fallacy is committed whenever one reasons to a causal conclusion based solely on the supposed cause preceding its "effect". Of course, it is a necessary condition of causation that the cause precede the effect, but it is not a sufficient condition. Thus, post hoc evidence may suggest the hypothesis of a causal relationship, which then requires further testing, but it is never sufficient evidence on its own.
Post Hoc also manifests itself as a bias towards jumping to conclusions based upon coincidences.
Logical Fallacy: Post Hoc
Neither the fact that the prayer may be denominationally neutral nor the fact that its observance on the part of the students is voluntary can serve to free it from the limitations of the Establishment Clause, as it might from the Free Exercise Clause, of the First Amendment, both of which are operative against the States by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. Although these two clauses may, in certain instances, overlap, they forbid two quite different kinds of governmental encroachment upon religious freedom. The Establishment Clause, unlike the Free Exercise Clause, does not depend upon any showing of direct governmental compulsion and is violated by the enactment of laws which establish an official religion whether those laws operate directly to coerce nonobserving individuals or not.
Engel v. Vitale
I wonder where the "thanks" button went? I don't have one anymore when looked for it...HmmmDid society back her up? We would need a poll or a vote to find out that information now wouldn't we?
Oh you don't want that vote, because it might make you look bad if the opposite were to be the case.
Thats the core of the rule of law in a Constitutional Republic that the minority neednt depend upon the majority for acknowledgement of its rights.
Look, we can go back and forth with this all day long, but the bottom line is this was never the intent of the so-called "Establishment Clause"
Case law in support?
Otherwise this is subjective opinion only.
In your mind, yes. What's next, banning Currency in School, until "Trust in God" is removed? Should the word "God" be stricken from all Public Literature too? Use of the word God is not an Establishment of one Religion or Sect over another.
