An Athiest Student as she has claimed, brings a lawsuit with the help of the ACLU?

[Crackerjack]

Do you really believe that our forefathers intended that clause to prevent any religion in any public building or meetings when they started congress out, and it still starts out with a prayer?????

Do you think you can keep from putting words in my mouth?????

MARSH V. CHAMBERS, 463 U. S. 783 :: Volume 463 :: 1983 :: Full Text :: US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez

 

[Againsheila]

Do you really believe that our forefathers intended that clause to prevent any religion in any public building or meetings when they started congress out, and it still starts out with a prayer?????

Do you think you can keep from putting words in my mouth?????

MARSH V. CHAMBERS, 463 U. S. 783 :: Volume 463 :: 1983 :: Full Text :: US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez

Let's get back to the discussion using your won words. Why do you believe the court ordered the school to take down the banner? Why do you believe the court was right? IN YOUR WORDS!!!

 

[Crackerjack]

Do you really believe that our forefathers intended that clause to prevent any religion in any public building or meetings when they started congress out, and it still starts out with a prayer?????

Do you think you can keep from putting words in my mouth?????

MARSH V. CHAMBERS, 463 U. S. 783 :: Volume 463 :: 1983 :: Full Text :: US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez

Let's get back to the discussion using your won words. Why do you believe the court ordered the school to take down the banner? Why do you believe the court was right? IN YOUR WORDS!!!

Who exactly do you think you are to order me around thusly?

I've explained the situation already. Government property is not your property individually. Additionally, public schools are not for proselytizing for your religion.

Understand?

 

[Againsheila]

Do you think you can keep from putting words in my mouth?????

MARSH V. CHAMBERS, 463 U. S. 783 :: Volume 463 :: 1983 :: Full Text :: US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez

Let's get back to the discussion using your won words. Why do you believe the court ordered the school to take down the banner? Why do you believe the court was right? IN YOUR WORDS!!!

Who exactly do you think you are to order me around thusly?

I've explained the situation already. Government property is not your property individually. Additionally, public schools are not for proselytizing for your religion.

Understand?

So do you believe that our forefathers, meant for the establishment clause to ban all religon from all public and government buildings? And if so, why then do you think they decided to start congress with a prayer? If not, why then do you believe the court was right in this case?

Or is it only Christian religion that you have a problem with?

 

[Crackerjack]

So do you believe that our forefathers, meant for the establishment clause to ban all religon from all public and government buildings?

Not precisely, but in many instances, yes.

And if so, why then do you think they decided to start congress with a prayer?

Because that was the tradition at that time.

If not, why then do you believe the court was right in this case?

Because it was tradition and not proselytization.

Or is it only Christian religion that you have a problem with?

Why do you assume this? Is it because you want to pigeonhole me into your neat little "pinko leftist commie atheist America-hating liberal" category?

 

[Againsheila]

So do you believe that our forefathers, meant for the establishment clause to ban all religon from all public and government buildings?

Not precisely, but in many instances, yes.

And if so, why then do you think they decided to start congress with a prayer?

Because that was the tradition at that time.

If not, why then do you believe the court was right in this case?

Because it was tradition and not proselytization.

Or is it only Christian religion that you have a problem with?

Why do you assume this? Is it because you want to pigeonhole me into your neat little "pinko leftist commie atheist America-hating liberal" category?

I'm a moderate, I don't care where you stand in general, only on each issue. You are wrong in this issue. A banner, even a prayer banner dedicated to a school by a graduating class 49 years ago is not proselytizing. I've already stated I don't care if the banner was a star of david or a prayer to the devil....do you have the same belief regardless? That's all I'm asking?

So you think congress started each session with a prayer because it was tradidtion but they didn't want that same tradidtion held up in other government meetings or public buildings?

That would make them rather hypocritical wouldn't it?

I th

 

[Crackerjack]

I'm a moderate, I don't care where you stand in general, only on each issue. You are wrong in this issue. A banner, even a prayer banner dedicated to a school by a graduating class 49 years ago is not proselytizing. I've already stated I don't care if the banner was a star of david or a prayer to the devil....do you have the same belief regardless? That's all I'm asking?

Yes. It doesn't matter to me which religion we're talking about, as none of them should be putting stuff up in schools.

So you think congress started each session with a prayer because it was tradidtion but they didn't want that same tradidtion held up in other government meetings or public buildings?

That would make them rather hypocritical wouldn't it?

I th

I suspect they would have no problem with state houses opening the same way.

 

[JohnA]

I can't understand why religious zealots would insist on pushing their religious beliefs in a public school. School children are a captive audience.

How would you react if your child came home and told you her atheist teacher had told the class there was no god?

How would you react if your child came home and told you that they had been kneeling on prayer rugs twice a day and praying to Allah and she asked if she could do it at home too?

If my child came home and wanted to pray to a false god like allah because other kids were doing it school I would pull her out of school so she won't get corrupted by evil.

there is no evidence to say that allah is anymore a false god than jezas
once again christian arrogant and intolarance
actually us atheists are only one god away from your thinking
we reject your god for the same reason you reject all others

 

[Photonic]

Deal with it, the American Justice System has deemed it unconstitutional (because it completely is) using previous cases as a reference and this is settled.


Fuck off.

 

[beagle9]

As decided by whom?

Whose standard are we going to use?

Rights are bestowed not voted on

Ahhh the old confusious and/or double speak, another tactic known by the left, in hopes to beat back the title wave majority who have been denide and abused by such sneakyness and spin, resulting in powergrabs for way to long now in this nation..

Did you just call me a Lefty??


I just want to know who gets to decide who is Bad or Good....who gets to decide whose standards we live by.
Yours?
By whose authority?

Don't side-step, Pubes.
Answer the question.

The majority....gosh

 

[Photonic]

Let's get back to the discussion using your won words. Why do you believe the court ordered the school to take down the banner? Why do you believe the court was right? IN YOUR WORDS!!!

Who exactly do you think you are to order me around thusly?

I've explained the situation already. Government property is not your property individually. Additionally, public schools are not for proselytizing for your religion.

Understand?

So do you believe that our forefathers, meant for the establishment clause to ban all religon from all public and government buildings? And if so, why then do you think they decided to start congress with a prayer? If not, why then do you believe the court was right in this case?

Or is it only Christian religion that you have a problem with?

First off, religion has literally no place in the education of our children for the future to compete with other countries going forwards. We are the only country in the world that has people who consistently attempt to muscle their religion into schools with such fervor.


Second, this prayer was obvious Christian, with phrases such as "heavenly Father" and "Amen" in it. Last I checked not everyone is Christian.

3rd, Thomas Jefferson was very explicit when he said that the US was not founded on Christian principles.

 

[JohnA]

[Also, there is nothing that says a child can't pray on his own. It is forced prayer or open religious displays that are not allowed

How have this girl's rights been violated?

"Our heavenly father"

If the banner had started "Praise Allah" would it be acceptable?

the problem with some of the * christians * who post here is that they are FOR RELIGION in schools and other public places *******as long as its THEIR religion
this is one of the main reasons that organisations like the ACLU exist

 

[JohnA]

God bless the ACLU

Quite the opposite, God doesn't want anything to do with the aclu. They are about as ungodly as anyone.

Hear say. I'm impressed that God communicates with you directly. It would be more believable though if you could talk the big guy into speaking to all of us. I for one would cast aside my atheism and accept "God" with such a demonstration of it's existance... Lacking a real irrefutable example of "God's" voice to my own ears I do not believe you at all ... In fact I believe you are bat shit crazy.

If anybody believes god *talks to them * and they answer back
there is a medical term for that condition

 

[JohnA]

How have this girl's rights been violated?

"Our heavenly father"

If the banner had started "Praise Allah" would it be acceptable?

It doesn't matter because that's not what it says, but if there were a sizable Muslim population in that community, like in Dearborn, Michigan, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it said "Praise Allah." In fact, I'd be willing to bet if you walk into a public school in Dearborn you will see Islamic displays in some form or another. Does that force anyone in the school to pray to Allah? Does this banner force this child to pray to Jehovah or take part in Christian practices, or force her to convert to a Christian religion?

We have moved towards this thinking that somehow we have a right to not be offended and that therefore means we can suppress the expression of the vast majority of people to secure that "right," yet there is no such doctrine in the U.S. Constitution or any state constitution. The simple, common sense thing for this child to do if this banner bothers her so much is to simply not look at it.

Tyranny of the minority is no better than tyranny of the majority. Common sense is all that needs to be applied here and our legal system has become practically void of it.

that is not how it works you might as well say if the things atheists say negatively about religion **bothers ** you then dont read or post on this board .
every body has a right to speak up and support there beliefs the length of time the banner has been displayed has nothing to do with the girls rights to protest .

another example blacks were called the N word for many more years than the banner was displayed are you saying because they were bothered /insulted / offended by that word for so long they have no right to object they should just ignore it ?

 

[hortysir]

Do you really believe that our forefathers intended that clause to prevent any religion in any public building or meetings when they started congress out, and it still starts out with a prayer?????

Whether it was their intent or not, the SCOTUS has made a ruling
/

 

[JohnA]

The ACLU is a Jewish front organization that is vehemently anti-Christian.

Who's goal is to purge the nation of all Christian morals and values.

well the nation thou govt over the years have done a wonderful job passing laws resticting the churches self given right to persecute imprison, maim or even kill those who disagree with its doctrine .
there are some *values and morals* of the christian religion that needs to be resticted .

like the right of a women to choice what she does with her body .
the right of a person to sleep with whom they choose
.and the right of children not to be molested by priests
we still have a long way to go to purge the nation of these questionable VALUES

 

[Againsheila]

"Our heavenly father"

If the banner had started "Praise Allah" would it be acceptable?

It doesn't matter because that's not what it says, but if there were a sizable Muslim population in that community, like in Dearborn, Michigan, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it said "Praise Allah." In fact, I'd be willing to bet if you walk into a public school in Dearborn you will see Islamic displays in some form or another. Does that force anyone in the school to pray to Allah? Does this banner force this child to pray to Jehovah or take part in Christian practices, or force her to convert to a Christian religion?

We have moved towards this thinking that somehow we have a right to not be offended and that therefore means we can suppress the expression of the vast majority of people to secure that "right," yet there is no such doctrine in the U.S. Constitution or any state constitution. The simple, common sense thing for this child to do if this banner bothers her so much is to simply not look at it.

Tyranny of the minority is no better than tyranny of the majority. Common sense is all that needs to be applied here and our legal system has become practically void of it.

that is not how it works you might as well say if the things atheists say negatively about religion **bothers ** you then dont read or post on this board .
every body has a right to speak up and support there beliefs the length of time the banner has been displayed has nothing to do with the girls rights to protest .

another example blacks were called the N word for many more years than the banner was displayed are you saying because they were bothered /insulted / offended by that word for so long they have no right to object they should just ignore it ?

Well, I don't think they should be able to say that only blacks can use that word. BTW, that word is banned from my house, when a young black man was living with us and used it I told him what I told everyone else, that word is not allowed in this house.

 

[Againsheila]

The ACLU is a Jewish front organization that is vehemently anti-Christian.

Who's goal is to purge the nation of all Christian morals and values.

well the nation thou govt over the years have done a wonderful job passing laws resticting the churches self given right to persecute imprison, maim or even kill those who disagree with its doctrine .
there are some *values and morals* of the christian religion that needs to be resticted .

like the right of a women to choice what she does with her body .
the right of a person to sleep with whom they choose
.and the right of children not to be molested by priests
we still have a long way to go to purge the nation of these questionable VALUES

What a minute, you said people have a right to sleep with whom they choose, then you say Priest don't have a right to molest children. I think you don't understand what you are saying. The truth is that people don't have the right to sleep with whom they choose, unless both people are consenting adults.

And I don't believe anyone has ever said priests have the right to molest children. NO ONE has the right to do that.

 

[Againsheila]

Do you really believe that our forefathers intended that clause to prevent any religion in any public building or meetings when they started congress out, and it still starts out with a prayer?????

Whether it was their intent or not, the SCOTUS has made a ruling
/

True, and it's not the first time they've been wrong. Probably won't be the last either.

 

[Photonic]

Do you really believe that our forefathers intended that clause to prevent any religion in any public building or meetings when they started congress out, and it still starts out with a prayer?????

Whether it was their intent or not, the SCOTUS has made a ruling
/

True, and it's not the first time they've been wrong. Probably won't be the last either.

The SCOTUS has the job of interpreting the Constitution in constitutional cases as the Founding Fathers would have.

And as Jefferson said this, I doubt they had trouble with the ruling.
http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802. <---Letter to the Danbury Baptist Church.

Art. 11, Treaty of Tripoli. Signed by John Adams as a representation of the laws of the United States Constitution. Constitution, Article VI, Sect.2: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

It's not really up for dispute.



And again, religion does not belong in an education facility during the school day, no matter how much you want to send us back to the bronze age

Source: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

You can attempt to re-write history as much as you want, but welcome to the information age, history is readily available to anyone who wants to know the truth, and the truth is that it was set up to protect your shitty church from being crushed by state doctrine.

I fail to see how Christians are being attacked when there is only a single atheist in congress.