Anarchists and libertarians - Please click here

[Oddball]

Anarchists are arrested-development morons.

Gee, argument ended.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

Our society agreed that we would have a certain form of government to protect individuals within.

I don't see any basis for this. Who agreed? When did they agree? By what means? I'm sure you see where I'm going with this - it's a nebulous concept held together solely by indoctrination and twisted logic.

The societal truce we have with our fellow countrymen is not necessarily shared with outsiders... Their intrusion IS primal violence against us.

What is the basis for the "us" and "them"? What unifies each group? As far as I can tell, it's the body of people under the control of this particular ruling class, and those who are not. But that distinction is thrust upon people without their consent. Many within this claimed area of dominion expressly reject the claim, and many of those without would happily accept it.

What rightful claim do you or your government have over this area called the United States? The right of property? There are areas of this country that no one has developed (or even walked upon), so how can anyone have a claim to that property? And what about my personal property, my house - who may claim the right to deny someone access to my property who I expressly desire to have visit?

And walking across an imaginary line is not an act of violence, but forcibly stopping them from doing so obviously is - so who's really committing the violence here?

 

[Oddball]

Our society agreed that we would have a certain form of government to protect individuals within.

I don't see any basis for this. Who agreed? When did they agree? By what means? I'm sure you see where I'm going with this - it's a nebulous concept held together solely by indoctrination and twisted logic.

The societal truce we have with our fellow countrymen is not necessarily shared with outsiders... Their intrusion IS primal violence against us.

What is the basis for the "us" and "them"? What unifies each group? As far as I can tell, it's the body of people under the control of this particular ruling class, and those who are not. But that distinction is thrust upon people without their consent. Many within this claimed area of dominion expressly reject the claim, and many of those without would happily accept it.

What rightful claim do you or your government have over this area called the United States? The right of property? There are areas of this country that no one has developed (or even walked upon), so how can anyone have a claim to that property? And what about my personal property, my house - who may claim the right to deny someone access to my property who I expressly desire to have visit?

And walking across an imaginary line is not an act of violence, but forcibly stopping them from doing so obviously is - so who's really committing the violence here?

 

[Brian Blackwell]

You could deftly refute all my arguments,

Easily. The amazing thing is that even you realize that your arguments are porous while still sticking by them.

I hold my position by logical necessity, due to the seeming irrefutability of the arguments. I can find no valid refutations to the arguments

Rubbish. Too late to try to duck and run now. You've already admitted others could "deftly refute all my arguments" (your words). One does not refute facts, but opinions, and all opinions have the potential to be wrong. The fallacy of reason and the failing of many great philosophers is their proofs often being made contingent upon the presumed validity of many invalid statements.

And surely you must realize that claiming you can refute something but stubbornly refusing to do so is deemed a cop-out by nearly everyone, and a sure sign that you can do no such thing.

Doubly rubbish. I could also try to grow a Lilly in the crack of a boulder if I gave it enough water, time and care, but why bother when so much easier and more fruitful application of one's time to simply do so in a pond? I was teaching others about truth tables, axiomatic tautologies and the like in 1975. You're wasting your time trying to goad me into what is obviously a dead-end pseudo-intellectual argument with you; The inequality of rights between lawmakers and all other individuals, as you put it, isn't a condemnation of a republic or whatever you think, it merely shows a system being abused by a developing benign oligarchy too long allowed to game the system for themselves to a complaint base.

But to jump from the best system ever conceived to saying the solution is to just abandon all law and authority and think it might work better is to say you have clabber for brains; a fact so self-evident that it hardly befits me or any other person in spending time trying to "prove" it to someone who accepts it as fact!

Oh gosh, this is embarrassing... awkward moment here, but I was being sarcastic when I said you could deftly refute my arguments. If I already knew that the valid refutation of my arguments was assured, why on earth would I offer them up on a tee? The same inability to accurately discern human nature that makes you believe anarchy would be "every man for himself" reveals it's ugly head once again...

The inequality of rights is not a corruption, it's inherent in the statement "Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes".

Congress shall + I shall not = Inequality.

All of government is based upon this inequality of rights. It must be, or it becomes entirely redundant with individual rights, and has no authority. Authority IS claiming rights that others don't have, on the most fundamental level. How do you address this?

 

[toobfreak]

.

Oddball, aptly chosen name for the odd man out, still living the dream that 1960's communes would have worked if they had just smoked a little more grass.

 

[Unkotare]

Anarchists are arrested-development morons.

Gee, argument ended.

View attachment 190312

Gotta grow up sometime, junior.

 

[gipper]

Anarchists are arrested-development morons.

That post makes you an idiot.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

Anarchists are arrested-development morons.

Gee, argument ended.

View attachment 190312

Gotta grow up sometime, junior.

Ya know, you're right. These anarchists who want to take on the responsibility for life's challenges themselves are acting like babies. The mature thing to do would be to subvert oneself to a parental ruling class, and abide by its permissions and denials in the hope that it will protect you and take care of you.

 

[BrokeLoser]

Weird how I never hear productive, hard working, successful people talk about this “ruling class”....yet the 39 year olds with neck tattoos, driving pintos and living in mamas converted garage always seem to bring it up. Aren’t they they ones who need a “ruling class”...doesn’t their survival depend on a “ruling class”?

Oh, so people who achieve success are less likely to acknowledge the injustices of the system within which they succeed? Amazing! I can’t imagine why this is so...

Good, productive, hard working successful people don’t have time to dwell on “injustices”...we’re too busy making money, raising families, becoming and doing better, enjoying life and controlling our own destinies...weird huh?

Exactly. So you don’t give a fuck as long as you’re doing ok. Glad to be sharing a planet with noble heroes such as yourself.

Just so you know, that hamster wheel you’re so “successful” at has been purposefully orchestrated for your entrapment. Way to buy into a con hook, line, and sinker. But you love being a mark for city-slicker carpetbaggers like the one in your avatar, so there’s no surprise you take pride in your golden shackles.

Haha...you’re putting words in my mouth now huh?
Look, it’s real fucking simple...some of us followed a very basic manual, a pathway which almost always leads to a decent life....we didn’t do anything revolutionary...we got an education, we were ambitious and driven to succeed...we wanted good things in life, so we were disciplined and we WORKED hard for it. Simple shit.
While todays broke lowlife bastards were fucking around ditching school, not trying in school, having babies, dropping out, drinking and smoking weed I was busting my ass playing football, wrestling, taking all honors courses and studying until 2-3am every night. Myself and people like me have zero respect for excuse makers and whackos who concoct crazy conspiracy theories as a way to blame someone or something else for holding them back and or for their shortcomings.

 

[toobfreak]

Ya know, you're right. These anarchists who want to take on the responsibility for life's challenges themselves are acting like babies. The mature thing to do would be to subvert oneself to a parental ruling class, and abide by its permissions and denials in the hope that it will protect you and take care of you.

I feel sorry for the parents stuck raising you and having to put up with your snot. They obviously gave you far too many permissions and should have paddled your ass.

 

[gipper]

Anarchists are arrested-development morons.

Gee, argument ended.

View attachment 190312

Gotta grow up sometime, junior.

Ya know, you're right. These anarchists who want to take on the responsibility for life's challenges themselves are acting like babies. The mature thing to do would be to subvert oneself to a parental ruling class, and abide by its permissions and denials in the hope that it will protect you and take care of you.

One would think after all the numerous failures of government...it's many nefarious actions, injustices, and warmongering all Americans would want to consider a new approach...but one would be wrong.

Unko is one who shits all over FDR for his tyrannical actions of imprisoning Japanese Americans, but then he preaches his devotion to government. Go figure....how fucked up is that?

 

[TNHarley]

I support pro liberty and freedom policies.
I support the federal govts power that was given to them by our Constitution. Nothing more.

Unfortunately, there's so much equivocation on those concepts that your claims are hard to pin down to anything specific. Party or ideological identification gives us a general idea

I support pro liberty and freedom policies.
I support the federal govts power that was given to them by our Constitution. Nothing more.

Unfortunately, there's so much equivocation on those concepts that your claims are hard to pin down to anything specific. Party or ideological identification gives us a general idea where someone is coming from without asking a bunch of more detailed questions.

He’d have to confirm this, but I think “Constitutional libertarian” fits the bill.

Well... at least it isnt republican or democrat LOL

 

[Oddball]

.

Oddball, aptly chosen name for the odd man out, still living the dream that 1960's communes would have worked if they had just smoked a little more grass.

Ad hominem attack...The weapon of choice for the intellectually arrested dweeb, who has no intellectual ammunition.

 

[Oddball]

Anarchists are arrested-development morons.

Gee, argument ended.

View attachment 190312

Gotta grow up sometime, junior.

You're the one who started in with the childish attacks, Chumlee.

 

[toobfreak]

Ad hominem attack...

Gee. Did your mommy teach you one Latin word?

 

[Brian Blackwell]

Look, it’s real fucking simple...some of us followed a very basic manual, a pathway which almost always leads to a decent life....we didn’t do anything revolutionary...we got an education, we were ambitious and driven to succeed...we wanted good things in life, so we were disciplined and we WORKED hard for it. Simple shit.
While todays broke lowlife bastards were fucking around ditching school, not trying in school, having babies, dropping out, drinking and smoking weed I was busting my ass playing football, wrestling, taking all honors courses and studying until 2-3am every night. Myself and people like me have zero respect for excuse makers and whackos who concoct crazy conspiracy theories as a way to blame someone or something else for holding them back and or for their shortcomings.

And who wrote the manual? Not you. That's kind of a running theme here...

Your bigoted view of anyone who doesn't tow the line says more about you than it does about them. You've already admitted that you have no time to concern yourself with "injustices", which means you're content to support a social structure with no regard for moral considerations. That makes you amoral at best, and immoral at worst, and honestly I'm not sure there's a distinction, since the only thing required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Doing nothing is a pro-evil position in practical terms, and you refuse to even consider the moral nature of your society, no less do anything about it.

 

[Oddball]

Ad hominem attack...

Gee. Did your mommy teach you one Latin word?

Is "I got nothing" really so hard to type out?

 

[Brian Blackwell]

Ya know, you're right. These anarchists who want to take on the responsibility for life's challenges themselves are acting like babies. The mature thing to do would be to subvert oneself to a parental ruling class, and abide by its permissions and denials in the hope that it will protect you and take care of you.

I feel sorry for the parents stuck raising you and having to put up with your snot. They obviously gave you far too many permissions and should have paddled your ass.

I'm just a mirror. Ask anyone who addresses me with respect.

 

[Tehon]

A Utopian pipe dream if ever there was one. There is no way you are going to convince the ruling class to freely relinquish their power.

Have you never studied Marx? You think much the same, though his thoughts do not seem as Utopian.

"Hence, nothing prevents us from making criticism of politics, participation in politics, and therefore real struggles, the starting point of our criticism, and from identifying our criticism with them. In that case we do not confront the world in a doctrinaire way with a new principle: Here is the truth, kneel down before it! We develop new principles for the world out of the world’s own principles. We do not say to the world: Cease your struggles, they are foolish; we will give you the true slogan of struggle. We merely show the world what it is really fighting for, and consciousness is something that it has to acquire, even if it does not want to."

Good quote. What makes the idea seem utopian is a misunderstanding of the nature of power and authority. Those who you say will not relinquish their power actually have no such power to relinquish. Our struggle is against an idea, a religion, a faith-based (and fear-based) belief.

A people who recognize the fallacious nature of authority will not blindly do another’s will, as all law enforcers and military personnel do. Without these enforcers, the power of the ruling class evaporates; peacefully and naturally.

A deception holds the whole thing in place, and it is not utopian to think a deception can be overcome on a societal scale. Mankind has left many such misunderstandings behind. The society is a body of individuals, so if an individual can be made to see more clearly, so can a nation, or a world.

"The man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, ‘Limit yourself’; it is he who is truly the impractical utopian." - Murray Rothbard

No, for me what makes the idea seem utopian is the belief that you can create a cooperative society while maintaining a competitive economic structure. Power doesn't derive from government it derives from controlling resources. You can take government away and people will still compete for the control of resources and whoever controls them holds power over the rest.

 

[bripat9643]

I think it's a quite depressing statement. It comes from the mindset that the only criteria for political convictions is personal. Democrats are currently parroting this view when the insist that the only reason poor people would fail to vote Democrat is because they're kidding themselves. It's inconceivable to them (the Democrats, and apparently Steinbeck), that people - even poor people - might have moral convictions outside their direct self-interest

I get your point on that, but Ayn Rand, and many like her, argued that noble motives are still selfish. You do charity. It makes you feel good. You defend the rights of another. It makes you happy and also garners reciprocity.

I stopped lying to myself about my motives. They are 100% selfish to the bone. But, that does not mean my motivations are harmful to others.

Whenever someone calls me "selfish," I just say "yes I am. So what?