Anarchists and libertarians - Please click here

[Oddball]

Pure chlorine gas cannot remain such in the atmosphere. I suppose one day we may learn that it can, but current science says otherwise. Why? It binds with other things to become something else. It is not inert. Neither is the state of Anarchy. It is motherfucking, goddamn, son-of-a-bitching IMPOSSIBLE.

You know government refuses to stay in control because we are in society with people who do not take personal responsibility and are not honoring the unspoken societal truce. Government is simply the inevitable offspring of society.

When the mutual agreements of society have been ignored or breached, no one is obligated to remain peaceful and no set of rules apply. Humans have no obligation to respect the life or liberty of anyone else. They are not governed by any moral code or system of ethics. Their only code is to do whatever is necessary to eat and fuck, including ruthlessly killing other humans. Just like animals are under no obligation to each other.

To avoid the animal kingdom state of affairs, and maintain the societal truce, everyone must work to respect the liberty of others to pursue fucking and eating (happiness). Too many people have too many opinions and methods of exercising liberty. There must be decision makers. Enter--Government.

You cannot avoid it. Stop being naive. You can only hope to work with others to suppress it or replace it.

Keeping government in control takes diligence and persistence of the governed. Unfortunately, stupid and/or lazy people are allowed to breed, so this will be a never-ending chore. Because of that truth, at some point, I may actually consider supporting eugenics.

What's impossible is The State staying constrained....All the text bricks of mythological scenarios to justify its existence won't change this.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

The term "limited government" is an oxymoron. Can you name one government that has ever allowed itself tobe limited?

I know. It takes extreme diligence and a much smaller population of stupid/lazy people that we currently have.

 

[bripat9643]

Once again, demanding certainty of outcome, before taking any action...Even though you know for damn sure that the current model is unworkable, and that even your vision of "limited government" will eventually refuse to live within its constraints, and grow back into the mess we have now, or worse.

Well, whether you accept the inevitablity of government or not, there it is.

Yes, ,you can never tame the beast. It takes constant attention. You have to constantly BEAT THE FUCK out of government and continually tear it down to prevent it from growing out of control, but you're living a pipe dream of you think we can permanently rid ourselves of government.

The sooner you accept that truth, the sooner you can start helping us continually kick the shit out of the current government.

I don't accept the inevitability of The State....That's the difference between you and me .

It will collapse under the weight of its own corruption, immorality, and avarice...I've accepted this and don't need to waste my time fighting to shrink it down to any "acceptable" scope anymore...Problem being that there will be too many people too stupid to see THAT inevitability, that they'll clamor for their servitude to yet another state apparatus.

The "small government" libertarian says anarchy is impossible, but he ignores the fact that history has demonstrated that the solution he proposes has never worked.

 

[toobfreak]

You folks keep missing the point, other than the fact that this thread was supposed to be for Anarchists and Libertarians, of which I am neither----- the failing of government in a Republic as we have now and to keep growing bigger and taking more sap from the society it was put there to serve rather than it serving us, is NOT AN INTRINSIC FAULT of democracy or a republic ruled by law------

------- it is due to THE PERNICIOUS INFLUENCE of (take your pick) Progressivism / Socialism / Liberalism! Take the Leftists and Globalists, and other groups of anti-colonialists who hate seeing America center stage out of government, and we could cut the size of government to a TENTH what it is now, restore the rule of law, and have laws APPLIED EQUALLY to all alike.

98% of what our government does today stands in direct conflict with the Constitution and the Founder's intent.

 

[Oddball]

I reject anarchy as the most savage/cruel system as nobody has any rights, nor is there respect for anybody's rights.

I like a lot of the Libertarian (big "L") but it is too much government control over individual choice and too authoritarian for me to embrace it fully. For instance their most recent presidential candidate, Gary Johnson, who I know personally and like as a person very much, would have us have open borders and rescind all laws re recreational drugs. And he would make religious convictions illegal to consider in matters of government policy at all levels. It is that kind of lack of understanding of American values that keeps Libertarians from having much success at the ballot box.

So I embrace classical liberalism aka libertarianism (little "L") neither of which are on the choices DP offers for ideology. I identify as conservative as the most big tent option offered.

The libertarian believes the federal government should have only enough say to allow the various states to operate as one nation, to provide the common defense, and promote the general welfare meaning everybody's welfare without consideration of race/gender/economic class et al. And the people are then intended to be free to live their lives as they choose and form themselves into whatever sorts of societies they wish to have whether that be restrictive or lawless or any degree in between.

The State refuses to stay in its box, be it federal state, local, or even the local school board...The historical examples of this are too numerous to mention.

A new paradigm needs to be considered.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

What's impossible is The State staying constrained....All the text bricks of mythological scenarios to justify its existence won't change this.

Then, grab your gun and start shooting. The only way to prevent the State is to prevent society. Which results in violence.

I don't care either way. I wouldn't mind taking out a few stupid people that annoy me.

 

[bripat9643]

You folks keep missing the point, other than the fact that this thread was supposed to be for Anarchists and Libertarians, of which I am neither----- the failing of government in a Republic as we have now and to keep growing bigger and taking more sap from the society it was put there to serve rather than it serving us, is NOT AN INTRINSIC FAULT of democracy or a republic ruled by law------

Actually, yes it is. Democracy is just socialism in slow motion. All democracies eventually devolve into plunder states. That's the fundamental nature of democracy.

------- it is due to THE PERNICIOUS INFLUENCE of (take your pick) Progressivism / Socialism / Liberalism! Take the Leftists and Globalists, and other groups of anti-colonialists who hate seeing America center stage out of government, and we could cut the size of government to a TENTH what it is now, restore the rule of law, and have laws APPLIED EQUALLY to all alike.

98% of what our government does today stands in direct conflict with the Constitution and the Founder's intent.

Those people will always be around in any society. That's why democracy is a self limiting disease.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

The State refuses to stay in its box, be it federal state, local, or even the local school board...The historical examples of this are too numerous to mention.

A new paradigm needs to be considered.

Agree. I am all ears on the new paradigm. What's the plan?

All I have stated before is that under current conditions, government will rear its ugly motherfucking head unless we all decide to live feudal, which again, is fine with me. Let's kill some motherfuckers.

 

[bripat9643]

The State refuses to stay in its box, be it federal state, local, or even the local school board...The historical examples of this are too numerous to mention.

A new paradigm needs to be considered.

Agree. I am all ears on the new paradigm. What's the plan?

All I have stated before is that under current conditions, government will rear its ugly motherfucking head unless we all decide to live feudal, which again, is fine with me. Let's kill some motherfuckers.

The Idea of a Private Law Society | Hans-Hermann Hoppe

 

[Foxfyre]

I reject anarchy as the most savage/cruel system as nobody has any rights, nor is there respect for anybody's rights.

I like a lot of the Libertarian (big "L") but it is too much government control over individual choice and too authoritarian for me to embrace it fully. For instance their most recent presidential candidate, Gary Johnson, who I know personally and like as a person very much, would have us have open borders and rescind all laws re recreational drugs. And he would make religious convictions illegal to consider in matters of government policy at all levels. It is that kind of lack of understanding of American values that keeps Libertarians from having much success at the ballot box.

So I embrace classical liberalism aka libertarianism (little "L") neither of which are on the choices DP offers for ideology. I identify as conservative as the most big tent option offered.

The libertarian believes the federal government should have only enough say to allow the various states to operate as one nation, to provide the common defense, and promote the general welfare meaning everybody's welfare without consideration of race/gender/economic class et al. And the people are then intended to be free to live their lives as they choose and form themselves into whatever sorts of societies they wish to have whether that be restrictive or lawless or any degree in between.

The State refuses to stay in its box, be it federal state, local, or even the local school board...The historical examples of this are too numerous to mention.

A new paradigm needs to be considered.

The original paradigm was the true classical liberal/libertarian one and it allowed the USA to become the most innovative, productive, generous, and free nation the world has ever known with little or no interference by the federal government. That is what we should look to now as the model to shoot for.

 

[Oddball]

You folks keep missing the point, other than the fact that this thread was supposed to be for Anarchists and Libertarians, of which I am neither----- the failing of government in a Republic as we have now and to keep growing bigger and taking more sap from the society it was put there to serve rather than it serving us, is NOT AN INTRINSIC FAULT of democracy or a republic ruled by law------

------- it is due to THE PERNICIOUS INFLUENCE of (take your pick) Progressivism / Socialism / Liberalism! Take the Leftists and Globalists, and other groups of anti-colonialists who hate seeing America center stage out of government, and we could cut the size of government to a TENTH what it is now, restore the rule of law, and have laws APPLIED EQUALLY to all alike.

98% of what our government does today stands in direct conflict with the Constitution and the Founder's intent.

But THIS time Bubba Joe will stop beating the fuck out of me!...I just KNOW he will!...He loves me!

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

You folks keep missing the point, other than the fact that this thread was supposed to be for Anarchists and Libertarians, of which I am neither----- the failing of government in a Republic as we have now and to keep growing bigger and taking more sap from the society it was put there to serve rather than it serving us, is NOT AN INTRINSIC FAULT of democracy or a republic ruled by law------

------- it is due to THE PERNICIOUS INFLUENCE of (take your pick) Progressivism / Socialism / Liberalism! Take the Leftists and Globalists, and other groups of anti-colonialists who hate seeing America center stage out of government, and we could cut the size of government to a TENTH what it is now, restore the rule of law, and have laws APPLIED EQUALLY to all alike.

98% of what our government does today stands in direct conflict with the Constitution and the Founder's intent.

I agree.

I am so goddamn frustrated with the current state of affairs caused by leftists and their statist cousins that I am prepared to do massive amounts of violence to reverse it or go to Valhalla.


We need to rid ourselves of the statist idiots fucking up the works. We need a final solution. I see no other alternative.

 

[Oddball]

The original paradigm was the true classical liberal/libertarian one and it allowed the USA to become the most innovative, productive, generous, and free nation the world has ever known with little or no interference by the federal government. That is what we should look to now as the model to shoot for.

Then what?....They've already proven that they're uninterested in remaining constrained.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

But THIS time Bubba Joe will stop beating the fuck out of me!...I jst know he will!...He loves me!

How is that any different than, "this time, this new guy, also named Bubba Joe, will not beat the shit out of me."?

You will never avoid government and remain peaceful. It is unreasonable to believe you will.

Start trying to beat the current government into submission, replace it, or grab your guns and get ready to shoot some motherfuckers.

Either way. Anarchy or Valhalla!!!

 

[bripat9643]

I reject anarchy as the most savage/cruel system as nobody has any rights, nor is there respect for anybody's rights.

I like a lot of the Libertarian (big "L") but it is too much government control over individual choice and too authoritarian for me to embrace it fully. For instance their most recent presidential candidate, Gary Johnson, who I know personally and like as a person very much, would have us have open borders and rescind all laws re recreational drugs. And he would make religious convictions illegal to consider in matters of government policy at all levels. It is that kind of lack of understanding of American values that keeps Libertarians from having much success at the ballot box.

So I embrace classical liberalism aka libertarianism (little "L") neither of which are on the choices DP offers for ideology. I identify as conservative as the most big tent option offered.

The libertarian believes the federal government should have only enough say to allow the various states to operate as one nation, to provide the common defense, and promote the general welfare meaning everybody's welfare without consideration of race/gender/economic class et al. And the people are then intended to be free to live their lives as they choose and form themselves into whatever sorts of societies they wish to have whether that be restrictive or lawless or any degree in between.

The State refuses to stay in its box, be it federal state, local, or even the local school board...The historical examples of this are too numerous to mention.

A new paradigm needs to be considered.

The original paradigm was the true classical liberal/libertarian one and it allowed the USA to become the most innovative, productive, generous, and free nation the world has ever known with little or no interference by the federal government. That is what we should look to now as the model to shoot for.

History has shown that your model is doomed to self destruct. Once you create a government, it grows until it consumes all of society. The only permanent solution is to keep government out of the equation.

 

[Oddball]

But THIS time Bubba Joe will stop beating the fuck out of me!...I jst know he will!...He loves me!

How is that any different than, "this time, this new guy, also named Bubba Joe, will not beat the shit out of me."?

You will never avoid government and remain peaceful. It is unreasonable to believe you will.

Start trying to beat the current government into submission, replace it, or grab your guns and get ready to shoot some motherfuckers.

Either way. Anarchy or Valhalla!!!

 

[kaz]

You're going to have to highlight the "ad hominem" attack in there for me because I'm not seeing it.

"Instead of living in squalor because government oppresses us, you want to live in squalor because you want to sit in a tower protecting your land all day so you don't have time to ever do anything productive."


As for strawman, again, that's lame. I'm talking about the effect of your policies. I am not saying you said you want to sit in a tower. I'm saying that's what you'll end up doing because bad people will endlessly threaten your property and your family.

You're imputing a motives upon me and drawing a picture that I'm not arguing in favor of...Classic straw man and ad hominem arguments.....You're also invoking the fallacy of government solipotence

That's an insult? What a dainty little chick you are. Getting huffy over a micro aggression, wow. I expected that from Moonglow or g5000, not you. You know kaz, I could take that as an insult if I wanted to, and I want to. So oddball, how much of the time you were gone did you spend wearing a dress and hustling tricks?

THAT is ad hominem. See the difference now? Your wanting to be insulted is a reject with prejudice

Anarchy is something that can only exist for a moment, it's like the big bang.

When you eliminate government, the weak, largely leftists, will join with warlords and form armies to conquer you. You will join with your neighbors to defeat them. At that moment, you have liberty. The next, you have a government again.

Anarchy is about liberty as much as Marxism is about equality. It's a talking point. That's not in any way what would happen.

Platitudes aren't arguments.

You've offered shit. When you do, then you can start to whine about platitudes not being arguments. I'll give you a few scenarios. And true story, I hate government. This is seriously your chance to flip a small government libertarian to anarchist. However, you need to give convincing arguments. Not go the route of Kevin Kennedy who said he can't back up how anarchy would work because he's not clairvoyant. What a dumb ass.

Basically my questions hit the two extremes. Legitimate disputes between honest citizens and criminals.

1) Your town is small. You have a house, fields, a pond and a patch of woods. You have a trail through the woods. You take a walk every day. You don't develop it because you want it the way it is. One day you're taking a walk and a new neighbor is cutting down your trees. You say it's your property, you use it. He says walking through it isn't using it, building houses and farming is and he is going to farm it. What do you do?

2) You go to bed early because you're tired. You wake up, go downstairs, and your wife and kids are dead. What do you do?

"Basically my questions hit the two extremes."....Begging the question....The presumption that your two extremes are the only ones worthy of examination....Your fictional scenario is also what Rand referred to as "lifeboat ethics".

What I gather from that little tirade is that you want certainty of results before you consider anything outside your limited view of what's possible...Well, neither I nor Kevin Kennedy, nor anyone else can give you any guarantees....What we do know is that there is no other entity in the entire history of humankind as responsible for more death, destruction, wars, anguish, destitution, and misery than The State...The same state that you naively believe that you can somehow tame, no matter how many examples are shown to you of how entirely disinterested its operators are in remaining within their constraints.

Even now, the Overton window his moved so far in the direction of preservation of the current gargantuan, that guys like you are arguing about an idiotic "fair tax", that would have got you tarred and feathered a mere century ago.

Whatever. I apologize for saying you're a quality poster. Something happened to you since you were emasculated. You're a snowflake who can't have a discussion because you're too busy crying that the mods took your dick away.

I asked you questions that you had a chance to engage in discussions, and you decided to keep melting, snowflake.

I'll give you a there, there, but just FYI it's not actually genuine.



Straight up though, I'm disappointed. Something happened to you since you were here. I'm not sure why you can't defend anarchy, but it's not up to me, is it?

 

[Oddball]

Whatever. I apologize for saying you're a quality poster. You're a snowflake who can't have a discussion because you're too busy crying that the mods took your dick away.

I asked you questions that you had a chance to engage in discussions, and you decided to keep melting, snowflake

Now who's all huffy and butthurt?

I refused to entertain your questions because I reject their premises...Deal with it.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

What is so frustrating about having this type of discussion (which I have for years) is when some refuse to accept the inevitability of government and continue to argue for its nonexistence.

It is akin to arguing with people about the inevitability of gravity. It's not like I like being weighed down all the time. I just can't wish gravity to go away and have it happen. I can try to overcome it some of the time. I can fight it and resist it, but that force will never, ever, ever, EEEHEHHEHEHEHEHHHEEEEVER go away.

This is one of the most frustrating disputes because some just refuse to hear me. I don't like or want government, just like I don't like or want old age. The argument looks like this:

Anarchist: Government will never behave. It is terrible to have government.

Me: I agree. Wish we could do something about it.

Anarchist: Why do you want to keep doing the same shit over and over.

Me: I don't. I wish government wouldn't keep rearing its ugly motherfucking dome.

Anarchist: Then stop allowing government.

Me: I...how? You asking the impossible.

Anarchist: We MUST find another alternative.

Me: Okay. What? How do we avoid the unavoidable.

Anarchist: Government will never behave. You can't tame it.

Me: I know. What do you want from me? I don't like it. I don't like death either, but....

Anarchist: We MUST consider alternatives to rid ourselves of government.

Me: (sigh)

 

[ThisIsMe]

I'm mostly anti government at this point. Not that I think government is a bad thing, in a limited form, but what we have now is far and away from what we were supposed to have.

I think we need a reboot. A complete removal of every politician in office, and elect a whole new group. Our government no longer serves the people, it only serves itself.

The best thing people could do in November is vote for anyone but the incumbent. Vote your party, but don't vote for the current establishment.

One of the only ways we will get our country back is to send a message to government, and that message is, "you are replaceable, and we will replace you of you do not get back to doing what it is that the people sent you there to do".