Anarchists and libertarians - Please click here

[bripat9643]

No, the same thing does not apply to the U.S. The federal government does not own the U.S. I was born here. I didn't choose to get born here. As always, the statist attempt to equate free choice with arbitrary compulsion. When the federal government was formed, there were already people living here, and most of them didn't consent to the Constitution. I certainly have never consented to it in any legal sense of the term. Can you point to any legal document that says being born means you have consented to a contract?

Your claim that I consented to it is obvious horseshit. How many times do you have to get slapped before you cease spewing your idiocies?

You choose to stay here when you could leave and go to a place that has the system that you claim to prefer. you are just a fraud that lacks any strength of conviction.

How many times does it have to be explained to your dumbass that being born here and not leaving does not constitute consent? Show me the law that says I can consent to a contract simply by being born. You know you can't. You simply repeat your idiotic talking point over and over.

You did not consent when you were born dumb ass, you consented when you were old enough to make a free choice to stay or leave.

Why do you not have the balls to act on what you claim to support? There is a country right now that has your system, they are everything you want.

I tell you what, I will pay for your move if you have the balls to act on your words.

Wrong, dumbass. The only way you can legally consent to something is by signing a contract. Any other claims are pure moonshine dreamed up by bootlicking dumbasses.

Fuck you are dumb, you do not have to sign a contract to legaly consent to something. Now you are just making up shit to avoid explaining why you will not act on your convictions.

In almost every case, you do. The only exceptions are very special cases. Being born or continuing to breath aren't some of them.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

The Fed Govt is keeping you from leaving the country? You are lying your ass o

You are not proving jack shit by telling us to leave. Can we just assume that is your response to everything and you can just shut the fuck up unless you have soething else to add?

 

[bripat9643]

Why do you say anarchy, as an anti-political position, implies no order, when everyone here has told you 1,000 times that voluntary organization, including heirarchy, is fine? This word is so overused, but it’s classic strawman.

The natural conclusion of anarchy is chaos. You are willing to shift authority from the government to something you will give a new name, but eventually anarchist will be back in the same place and they will want to take authority from that and the cycle will not end till there is nothing but chaos. This cannot be disputed.

As for employment, I merely described the situation. I said that the employee is not compensated for the full value of his work. This is the whole goal of hiring someone. The point of the example was to demonstrate a situation where you gain some benefit from a system that is not designed for your benefit, but specifically designed for your exploitation. Your ability to gain benefit is just a way of keeping you coming back so the exploiter can get HIS benefit. I’m not making a value judgement about this arrangement.

There is no exploitation, there is mutual benefit. I am getting exactly what I want as is my employer. How can that be exploitation? I am not being treated unfairly or unjustly.

Fair

was never mentioned, or implied.
Just is my concern, not fair.

Just or fair, now you are just playing semantic...

Just: guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness:

Government is a system that is not designed for your benefit. Gaining some benefit from it does not refute this. The difference between government and employment is that there is no expressed consent. That is why it is inherently immoral - because it is both exploitative and compulsory. To say government is a neutral tool is to ignore much of what’s been said to this point without having adequately refuted it.

There is expressed consent when you freely choose to live under a system of government. When you get a job you express your consent for them to take out taxes. There is a country right now that has the system you are looking for, and yet you will not move there. What does that say about you?

You believe natural law does not exist, so what is the source of your morality?

Morality is a man made construct, it is based upon the society we live in. There is no morality in nature.

If I kill you for my gain, we humans see that as immoral. If a lion kills a gazelle for its gain, is that immoral?

Is it immoral for a praying mantis to kill its mate during sex? Of course not, but if you did it to your mate, that would be immoral. Our morals come from the society we are a part of.

You're claiming that having no government is the same as having government. Only an idiot would believe such a dumbass theory.

Have you been drinking?

That's exactly what you said.

 

[bripat9643]

The Fed Govt is keeping you from leaving the country? You are lying your ass o

You are not proving jack shit by telling us to leave. Can we just assume that is your response to everything and you can just shut the fuck up unless you have soething else to add?

That's the road the redneck statist usually ends up going down: Murica, love it or leave it.

Aren't they a hoot?

 

[Brian Blackwell]

"Social Contract" is a truce. It is an agreement to not kill each other and let each other pursue food and sex without violent interference.

Anything above and beyond that understood agreement is not contractual. It is compulsory from birth.

Except 99% of the population never agreed to it.

It's conditional upon you living here. If you don't like it, you are free to leave.

Because short of a Constitutional convention the only thing that is likely to change the way things are would be WWIII.

Bullshit. The social contract is a myth. You don't impress anyone by repeating this nonsense.

I don't think you understand what I am writing. You don't have a choice.

You living here means that you accept it as a condition of you staying here.

How do I know? Because you toe the line. You bitch about it, but you have accepted it through your actions. You can cry that you are being coerced. That is just you rationalizing that you haven't accepted it when your actions say otherwise.

In fact, I bet you vote in the elections too. amirite?

This is the key...it reminds me of a friend of mine whose kid moved back home after college. They put some basic rules down for him and the kid whined, but by choosing to live there he was choosing to follow the rules.

Same thing applies to those that choose to live in the US.

There is essentially no government in Somalia, perhaps they should move there and see if it is the utopia they are hoping for.

Private property with a valid claim to ownership. Nobody could possibly have such a claim on an entire half-continent. Somalia is a hellscape, nothing like the U.S. - conditions matter, as they effect the expression of human nature; not a free society born of a widespread understanding of natural law principles; citizenry is not well-armed.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

Anarchism intentionally denies examination because it is irrational. There is no formal defined dogma of anarchism. Instead there is only a vague, rosy notion of something good, noble and just: the advent of these things will bring instant euphoria and a social order beyond reproach. Anarchism seeks equality through uniformity and communal ownership. Anarchism has an extraordinary ability to incite and inflame its adherents and inspire social movements. Anarchists dismiss their defeats and ignore their incongruities. They desire no government to implement their amoral social policies. Anarchism is a religion. The religious nature of anarchism explains their hostility towards traditional religions which is that of one rival religion over another. Their dogma is based on materialism, primitive instincts, atheism and the deification of man. They see no distinction between good and evil, no morality or any other kind of value, save pleasure. They practice moral relativity, indiscriminate indiscriminateness, multiculturalism, cultural Marxism and normalization of deviance. They worship science but are the first to reject it when it suits their purposes. They can be identified by an external locus of control. Their religious doctrine is abolition of private property, abolition of family, abolition of religion and equality via uniformity and communal ownership. They practice critical theory which is the Cultural Marxist theory to criticize what they do not believe to arrive at what they do believe without ever having to examine what they believe. They confuse critical theory for critical thinking. Critical thinking is the practice of challenging what one does believe to test its validity. Something they never do.

See? This is why I get mad. This is incredibly dishonest.

You prove every point.

Anarchists are collectivists. Why else would you want to bring down a Republic?

I swear Rod Serling is going to show up any minute. How the hell are we collectivists when we’ve written reams vehemently asserting the primacy of individual rights?

Denies examination and is irrational, even though this whole thread we’ve participated in an examination and given logical reasoning for our position.

There is no dogma because it’s an apophatic position - no rulers - that’s all. No utopia, euphoria, or social order beyond reproach. There can be order - that’s what humans do - but there is no doctrine delineating what that would or should be.

No uniformity or communal ownership. Our extraordinary ability to inspire social movements is beating our heads against a wall while people ignore most of the noises that come out.

Where are the incongruities? The logic has been consistently based on self-ownership. It’s not amoral, as it’s wholly rooted in morality, as we’ve expressed or implied in nearly every post.

Not a religion, there’s no belief system inherent to anarchy other than “slavery is bad”. No hostility toward other religions, in fact, no mention of them at all.

Materialism, atheism - no mention of them. Primitive instincts - directly opposed by citing recognition of moral law and calling for evolution of consciousness. Deification of man - expressly said men are not Gods and therefore cannot make law; condone recognition of natural law.

Distinction between good and evil is our entire point, pleasure as a primary value not mentioned or implied. The exact opposite of moral relativity, expressly condone discrimination of thought, chastised normalization of deviation by implication, as strict adherence to a caregorical moral imperative is being condoned.

Marxism - anarchy implies nothing about economics or communal systems. It implies nothing about science or family. Expressly recognized private property rights, and denied the legitmacy of external control.

Implored others to embrace critical thinking while practicing it relentlessly. Pretty much everything is the exact opposite of what you’ve asserted. I believe you are trolling with this, but I’ve indulged for the sake of lurkers actually interested in this examination.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Except 99% of the population never agreed to it.

It's conditional upon you living here. If you don't like it, you are free to leave.

Because short of a Constitutional convention the only thing that is likely to change the way things are would be WWIII.

Bullshit. The social contract is a myth. You don't impress anyone by repeating this nonsense.

I don't think you understand what I am writing. You don't have a choice.

You living here means that you accept it as a condition of you staying here.

How do I know? Because you toe the line. You bitch about it, but you have accepted it through your actions. You can cry that you are being coerced. That is just you rationalizing that you haven't accepted it when your actions say otherwise.

In fact, I bet you vote in the elections too. amirite?

This is the key...it reminds me of a friend of mine whose kid moved back home after college. They put some basic rules down for him and the kid whined, but by choosing to live there he was choosing to follow the rules.

Same thing applies to those that choose to live in the US.

There is essentially no government in Somalia, perhaps they should move there and see if it is the utopia they are hoping for.

Private property with a valid claim to ownership. Nobody could possibly have such a claim on an entire half-continent. Somalia is a hellscape, nothing like the U.S. - conditions matter, as they effect the expression of human nature; not a free society born of a widespread understanding of natural law principles; citizenry is not well-armed.

Private property is a meaningless term outside of a governmental system.

Without that property ownership is based on who has the resources to keep it. Once again a might makes right system.

Somalia is a hellscape because of the chaos caused by the anarchy. Somalia is a natural outcome of anarchy


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[Oddball]

The Fed Govt is keeping you from leaving the country? You are lying your ass off. You freely chose to stay here, that is all on you and nobody else.

You obviously haven't looked into all the requirements the feds lay on you, should you wish to expatriate....I have, and it's a shit ton of bureaucratic bullshit to wade through.

Once again, you have NFI what you're blabbering about.

 

[flacaltenn]

I've done pretty well for myself as a "slave."

Are you sure YOU aren't the one "thinkin' you's been wronged?"

Well, as long as you've done well for yourself, that's all that matters.

Think concentric circles, Brian.

But putting that aside, it belies your belief that I am a slave.

And it is your displeasure that shows that you think you are a slave.

It's the words of a house slave. How well you're doing has absolutely nothing to do with whether you're a slave or not. Citing how well you're doing is only to say "Well, if I'm a slave, I'm a rich slave, so"

For God's sake, man, I thought you actually gave a damn about logic and reason. You were at least trying in our previous conversations.

lol, the old uncle tom argument. First you tried the I act like I was wronged argument and when that didn't work you tried the house nigga argument. And now you are making a plea to logic.

This is really pretty simple. I believe the role of the government is to do for the people what the people cannot do for themselves and not to do for the people what they can and should do for themselves. You believe government is evil and you want to have no laws and think that people will just behave themselves.

And you question my logic? Too funny.

There is nothing government does that people can't do for themselves, other than imprison their neighbors. So that pretty much rules out government as a necessity.

The LParty harbors some anarchists. But we can list a whole lot of other Govt duties and infrastructure that need to provided beside criminal justice. Most ALL of them are mentioned in the Constitution. Anarchists deny any sense in ceding ANY function or power. Good luck with that. Not even a romantic movie about Anarchy that doesn't have Mel Gibson riding in a war converted vehicle pirating other people.

The infrastructure for a Civil and Criminal court system is vital.. Libertarians LOVE to litigate instead of legislate. The administration of borders. Someone has to do that and coordinate with foreign countries to vet arrivals and filter out crime and disease. VOTING systems for fuck sake that the Repubs and Dems are completely inept at. Think how much better off the nation would be if Washington FOCUSED on their original duties.

I have a saying that "I could be a LOT more liberal on most everything, like immigration or entitlements like Soc Sec ---- IF ---- the Federal govt was focused and competent". They aren't That's why the 2 parties are the problem right now. NOT the instruction manual for America.

 

[Picaro]

The Fed Govt is keeping you from leaving the country? You are lying your ass off. You freely chose to stay here, that is all on you and nobody else.

You obviously haven't looked into all the requirements the feds lay on you, should you wish to expatriate....I have, and it's a shit ton of bureaucratic bullshit to wade through.

Once again, you have NFI what you're blabbering about.

Bingo. Quoted for truth. One of my sons immigrated to Germany and it takes years and years to get free of the U.S.'s truly awesome array of hoop jumps, petty extortions, bureaucratic footdragging and shakedowns just to get your paperwork acceptable to foreign govts.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

The Fed Govt is keeping you from leaving the country? You are lying your ass off. You freely chose to stay here, that is all on you and nobody else.

You obviously haven't looked into all the requirements the feds lay on you, should you wish to expatriate....I have, and it's a shit ton of bureaucratic bullshit to wade through.

Once again, you have NFI what you're blabbering about.

So you are too lazy to do a little paperwork, you really do not have much strength of conviction at all.

 

[Picaro]

The Fed Govt is keeping you from leaving the country? You are lying your ass off. You freely chose to stay here, that is all on you and nobody else.

You obviously haven't looked into all the requirements the feds lay on you, should you wish to expatriate....I have, and it's a shit ton of bureaucratic bullshit to wade through.

Once again, you have NFI what you're blabbering about.

So you are too lazy to do a little paperwork, you really do not have much strength of conviction at all.

So, you think it's fine to make people file the same paperwork over and over, delay them for years, all for no reason? Yes, you sound like a perfect Democrat.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

The Fed Govt is keeping you from leaving the country? You are lying your ass o

You are not proving jack shit by telling us to leave. Can we just assume that is your response to everything and you can just shut the fuck up unless you have soething else to add?

I am telling people to have strength to their convictions. We have people that talk a mighty game on an internet forum but will not back up that talk. Here we are more than 1000 post in and the anarchist have told us all that time how evil the US government ia, and when they have a chance to live government free, they all of a sudden decided shit is not so bad after all.

Seems things are not really as bad as they pretend

 

[Harpy Eagle]

The Fed Govt is keeping you from leaving the country? You are lying your ass off. You freely chose to stay here, that is all on you and nobody else.

You obviously haven't looked into all the requirements the feds lay on you, should you wish to expatriate....I have, and it's a shit ton of bureaucratic bullshit to wade through.

Once again, you have NFI what you're blabbering about.

So you are too lazy to do a little paperwork, you really do not have much strength of conviction at all.

So, you think it's fine to make people file the same paperwork over and over, delay them for years, all for no reason? Yes, you sound like a perfect Democrat.

I do not think it is fine at all, but I find the excuse that the government makes it too hard to be pretty weak.

I also think that the hardship is being overstated. I have a cousin that lives in Mexico, right on the beach in some little town I had never heard of. He is about 45 and he has lived there for the last 20 years. He had none of these issues you speak of.

We have a person on this forum that has retired to Panama, he has not spoken of any of the things you claim to be the case. Also, since they would be moving to a country with no government, the thing they say is the ultimate utopia, most of those hoops would not apply.

 

[Cellblock2429]

The Fed Govt is keeping you from leaving the country? You are lying your ass off. You freely chose to stay here, that is all on you and nobody else.

You obviously haven't looked into all the requirements the feds lay on you, should you wish to expatriate....I have, and it's a shit ton of bureaucratic bullshit to wade through.

Once again, you have NFI what you're blabbering about.

So you are too lazy to do a little paperwork, you really do not have much strength of conviction at all.

So, you think it's fine to make people file the same paperwork over and over, delay them for years, all for no reason? Yes, you sound like a perfect Democrat.

/-----/ Golfing Gator was outraged when the town said he had to get a permit to run his Kool Aid stand. His Special Ed teacher had to help him fill out the paperwork.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

The Fed Govt is keeping you from leaving the country? You are lying your ass off. You freely chose to stay here, that is all on you and nobody else.

You obviously haven't looked into all the requirements the feds lay on you, should you wish to expatriate....I have, and it's a shit ton of bureaucratic bullshit to wade through.

Once again, you have NFI what you're blabbering about.

So you are too lazy to do a little paperwork, you really do not have much strength of conviction at all.

So, you think it's fine to make people file the same paperwork over and over, delay them for years, all for no reason? Yes, you sound like a perfect Democrat.

/-----/ Golfing Gator was outraged when the town said he had to get a permit to run his Kool Aid stand. His Special Ed teacher had to help him fill out the paperwork.

Oh look, I have a new puppy for the day, humping my leg trying to get a pat on the head.

How cute


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[ding]

Ding is obviously not the brightest bulb in the box. He couldn't construct a logical syllogism if his life depended on it.

^ dunning effect

 

[ding]

I've done pretty well for myself as a "slave."

Are you sure YOU aren't the one "thinkin' you's been wronged?"

Well, as long as you've done well for yourself, that's all that matters.

Think concentric circles, Brian.

But putting that aside, it belies your belief that I am a slave.

And it is your displeasure that shows that you think you are a slave.

It's the words of a house slave. How well you're doing has absolutely nothing to do with whether you're a slave or not. Citing how well you're doing is only to say "Well, if I'm a slave, I'm a rich slave, so"

For God's sake, man, I thought you actually gave a damn about logic and reason. You were at least trying in our previous conversations.

lol, the old uncle tom argument. First you tried the I act like I was wronged argument and when that didn't work you tried the house nigga argument. And now you are making a plea to logic.

This is really pretty simple. I believe the role of the government is to do for the people what the people cannot do for themselves and not to do for the people what they can and should do for themselves. You believe government is evil and you want to have no laws and think that people will just behave themselves.

And you question my logic? Too funny.

There is nothing government does that people can't do for themselves, other than imprison their neighbors. So that pretty much rules out government as a necessity.

Any organization of men necessarily requires a hierarchy. You can't get around this. You see it throughout nature. So to argue that no government is required is ludicrous. It can be solved through inspection that a government is required.

 

[ding]

Not according to the founding fathers of liberty and freedom. According to them liberty and freedom rests upon virtue and morality and virtue and morality rests on religion.

Cite some sources. Don't make blanket statements. I will bet you believe the founding fathers were Christians.

But, the founder of your religion was closely related to the founding fathers, in that he hijack the rites of their fraternal order.

So how do you reconcile that your beliefs about religion are closely aligned to the beliefs of the founding fathers of communism and diametrically opposed to the beliefs of the founding fathers of freedom and liberty.

And while you are at it how do you reconcile that your support for open borders is aligned with the beliefs of socialists?

Why Socialists Have Always Fought for Open Borders

So, one cannot be moral without religion?

It fits that you believe this.

Just like people cannot coexist without government, you believe people cannot use their minds, gain perspective, and act morally.

Don't you mean it fits our Founding Fathers? Because that is what they believed and for good reason too. Experience and reason told them so.

Are you aware that the first thing the KGB would do whenever they would enter a country to destabilize that country was to use subversive tactics to demoralize the people? It isn't an accident that every communist nation was a militant atheist nation. That should give you pause for concern.

 

[ding]

Why are we the people that must conform or get out?

Fuck that.

You bitches leave.

Agreed. What gives the people who signed the Constitution the right to impose anything on me?

I believe that is called the rule of law.

If you don't like it you can leave, right?

I mean it isn't like you don't have a remedy to it.