Are "Hate Crime" Laws Constitutional?

[SwimExpert]

Exactly there is no such in reality, but many will believe it!

Yes, there is. You're just ignorant.

 

[Kosh]

Exactly there is no such in reality, but many will believe it!

Yes, there is. You're just ignorant.

Says the one that being a Jew is a "race"..



Words like "ethnicity," "religion," or even "race" are completely irrelevant to our obligations in this life. That's not the path to pursue. What is important is each individual's personal relationship with Hashem, and our relationship with Hashem as a People, as well as our relationships with our communities (roughly in that order).

Judaism: Race, Religion, or Ethnicity?

Once again your talking point is defeated!

 

[SwimExpert]

Exactly there is no such in reality, but many will believe it!

Yes, there is. You're just ignorant.

Says the one that being a Jew is a "race"..

Correct. Says the one who is informed in the subject; says the one who is Jewish, ethnically, but who is not a member of the Jewish religion. Listen, you really don't know what you're talking about. I happen to know a thing or two about this. For example, did you know that according to religious law, a person born to a Jewish mother is Jewish regardless of what they believe or practice? How can you explain that within the limitations of your ill advised theory?

You wouldn't deny that someone in ancient Sparta was a Greek, just because s/he wasn't an adherent to ancient Hellenism, would you? You wouldn't have denied that Greek was an ethnicity just because there was a universal religious system, would you?


Jewish identity can be separated into three separate, independent parts:

Jewish peoplehood, an ethnic identity composed of several subdivisions that evolved in the Diaspora.
Jewish religion, observance of spiritual and ritual tenets of Judaism.
Jewish culture, celebration of traditions, secular and religious alike.

Jewish identity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kosh]

Exactly there is no such in reality, but many will believe it!

Yes, there is. You're just ignorant.

Says the one that being a Jew is a "race"..

Correct. Says the one who is informed in the subject; says the one who is Jewish, ethnically, but who is not a member of the Jewish religion. Listen, you really don't know what you're talking about. I happen to know a thing or two about this. For example, did you know that according to religious law, a person born to a Jewish mother is Jewish regardless of what they believe or practice? How can you explain that within the limitations of your ill advised theory?

You wouldn't deny that someone in ancient Sparta was a Greek, just because s/he wasn't an adherent to ancient Hellenism, would you? You wouldn't have denied that Greek was an ethnicity just because there was a universal religious system, would you?


Jewish identity can be separated into three separate, independent parts:

Jewish peoplehood, an ethnic identity composed of several subdivisions that evolved in the Diaspora.
Jewish religion, observance of spiritual and ritual tenets of Judaism.
Jewish culture, celebration of traditions, secular and religious alike.

Jewish identity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Once again this has already been debunked!

Being Jewish is about community and nothing else, the same exact arguments can be made for any religion including Christians and Muslims.

Muslims Aren't A Race, So I Can't Be Racist, Right? Wrong.

See even the far left narratives claims that being Muslim is a race!

Yes being Jewish is a religion and not a "race" or "ethnicity" unless you want to call any community a race or ethnic group!

So now being from the hood is an "ethnic" group!

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No, that was self-defense and Zimmerman had the injuries to prove it. Murder is when you make it your objective to kill somebody.

That's an appeal to what the perpetrator is thinking.

No, it's an action. If I kill somebody with the full intent of killing them, that justifies murder. If I accidentally kill somebody let's say in a fist fight, that's manslaughter. If I kill somebody that's attacking me, that's self-defense.

In all three cases, I caused a death, but the charge is based on why I caused the death, not what I was thinking when I caused the death.

 

[Contumacious]

No Constitutional Authority for Federal Hate Crime Law Cato Liberty

I am of the opinion that so called "hate crime" laws are not constitutional and are racist by nature. They carry a grave danger with them as they are not evenly applied and are a creation of politicians pandering for votes. When the politicization of the law takes place it is a slippery slope to tyranny. Attorney General Eric Holder admitted that "hate crime" laws are racially biased. What does the board think?

The Case Against Hate-Crime Laws

Arguments against hate crime laws

There are quite a few other reasons to be skeptical of hate laws. (1) Proving that hatred is a motivation is costly and difficult. (2) Attributing motivation to a specific emotion can be quite subjective. It allows a jury or a judge to penalize criminals on subjective grounds. This can be a source of injustice. (3) Harm to others than the actual victim is not actually proven. It is presumed, and the criminal is punished for this unproven crime. This is unjust. (4) The externality theory is faulty because all sorts of crimes may intimidate non-victims or potential victims. If people are to be punished using a theory of crime, that theory should be broad enough and accurate enough to be fair over all similar cases. (5) Restitution to victims is typically disregarded by our criminal justice system. Hate crime legislation continues this feature. It adds to it by focusing on added penalties. (6) Over time, as laws and cases multiply, people can eventually be accused of libelous or seditious hate crimes involving vehement speech when they are biased against a group or merely do not like it or its policies. People can eventually be accused of hate crimes when they use hateful speech. Hate crimes laws are a seed that can sprout in new directions. (7) Perhaps hatred as a motivation will eventually be used as grounds for letting the criminal off the hook. Some clever lawyer will argue that the person’s hatred was uncontrollable or instilled by forces beyond his contro

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No, that was self-defense and Zimmerman had the injuries to prove it. Murder is when you make it your objective to kill somebody.

Which goes into identifying motives, emotions, and thoughts of the accused.

No, it doesn't. If a person is attacked, they are within their legal rights to use deadly force. It doesn't matter what they were thinking at the time.

False!

Tell you what, I'll give you a shot at this. Ray, I'd like to hire you as my lawyer. Let me tell you what happened:

This guy named Larry broke into my house. When he saw me swung his crowbar at me and hit me in the arm. I happened to have my pistol on me, so I quickly ducked around the dining room table and pointed it straight at him. That seemed to turn the tides. All of a sudden Larry froze and became afraid. He dropped the crowbar and begged me not to shoot, saying that he had been on hard times and was trying to make money to support his family. "Please don't kill me, I'll leave right now. Or call the police if you want and they can arrest me. Just please don't kill me." I told Larry to leave, and he slowly backed up in compliance toward the open door. Just before he got to the door I told him to stop, which he did. And just for shits and giggles, I shot him five times in the chest, killing him.

Here's your challenge Ray....without invoking what my motivations, thoughts, or emotions may have been, make the case for whether or not this was self defense. Prove that I either shot him in cold blood, or that I was defending myself.

It all depends on what you tell the police.

If you are honest about the entire situation, you will be charged with at least manslaughter because you admitted to the police that your life was not in danger. If your life is not in danger, you cannot be acting out of self-defense. Of course that varies state to state, but I'm just generalizing here.

 

[ChrisL]

Exactly there is no such in reality, but many will believe it!

Yes, there is. You're just ignorant.

Says the one that being a Jew is a "race"..

Correct. Says the one who is informed in the subject; says the one who is Jewish, ethnically, but who is not a member of the Jewish religion. Listen, you really don't know what you're talking about. I happen to know a thing or two about this. For example, did you know that according to religious law, a person born to a Jewish mother is Jewish regardless of what they believe or practice? How can you explain that within the limitations of your ill advised theory?

You wouldn't deny that someone in ancient Sparta was a Greek, just because s/he wasn't an adherent to ancient Hellenism, would you? You wouldn't have denied that Greek was an ethnicity just because there was a universal religious system, would you?


Jewish identity can be separated into three separate, independent parts:

Jewish peoplehood, an ethnic identity composed of several subdivisions that evolved in the Diaspora.
Jewish religion, observance of spiritual and ritual tenets of Judaism.
Jewish culture, celebration of traditions, secular and religious alike.

Jewish identity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And what if you convert to Christianity? Still Jewish?

 

[ChrisL]

A Christian Jewish American?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I'm unaware of any special punishment for those that attack or kill a police officer. That doesn't mean the judge won't throw the book at the subject; chances are he or she will.

Oh, come the fuck on. Aren't you a cop? In most states assaulting a police office is a more serious crime than regular assault. For example, in Texas it is a third degree felony whereas assault would be a misdemeanor.

If somebody kills me because I'm a big tall guy, and somebody kills another person because they are black, what you're saying is that it's proper to place a lower value on my life over the black person. Where is the equity in that?

Nobody has said that, and you have to be deliberately dishonest to extrapolate that. Hate crimes do not automatically attach to a crime based on the race of a victim. Hate crimes apply when the motivation for the crime was hatred of a particular group based on race, religion, etc.

Once again, I point you to the fact that the Supreme Court case that found hate crime legislation to be constitutional involved a white victim.

I never said that race automatically made it a hate crime. I'm saying that if indeed a black person was killed because of a hate crime, and I'm just murdered the same way not being a hate crime, Hate Crime laws protect the black person more than they protect me because I'm not black. Therefore, yes, our justice system places more value on the black person. How can you say it doesn't?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

A Christian Jewish American?

Is that like a white Hispanic by any chance???

 

[ChrisL]

Okay, what if you are in a bar fight, and you are angry and while fighting with this other person, you yell out some "slurs." Perhaps the person you are fighting with is a black person or a gay person . . . . That does not necessarily mean that you HATE black people or gay people generally speaking. You hate this particular black or gay person perhaps, and you are trying to lash out at this person and hurt him or her by calling this person derogatory names (which we see happening all the time around on this forum). This is where enforcing laws based on what a person is "feeling" or "thinking" is just not right. Your actions or words can totally be misinterpreted to mean something that you didn't intend, only because you were angry. So, you kick this person's butt and get charged with a "hate crime" because you may have used a racial or gender type slur or cuss while angry at this particular person.

You realize that using slurs doesn't make it a hate crime .

Really???

Was Racial Slur Anger or Hate Crime?


Lonny Rae doesn't deny that he used a racial slur last October after seeing a black man scuffle with his wife, who like Rae is white. For uttering an ugly word in what he says was the heat of the moment as he tried to defend his wife, Idaho prosecutors are charging him with a hate crime that could land him in jail for five years.

The Raes and their lawyer, Edgar Steele, say he has been scapegoated by a state that has become overly sensitive to characterizations that it is a home to white separatist racists.

Since the incident, which occurred after a high school football game that Rae's wife, Kimberly, was covering for a local paper, both the Raes found themselves out of work and essentially driven out of town as a result of the bad publicity, they say.

What shocked them more than that was the prosecutor's decision to charge Lonny Rae with felony malicious harassment and disturbing the peace, while not filing charges against the man who scuffled with his wife over her camera.

"They weren't interested in that," Lonny Rae said. "The biggest concern they had was that I used the 'N' word.

 

[SwimExpert]

Once again this has already been debunked!

There is a difference between debunking something, and uneducated fools like you denying reality.

Being Jewish is about community and nothing else

Now you're contradicting yourself. You said it was a religion. Now you're saying otherwise.

the same exact arguments can be made for any religion including Christians and Muslims.

False. Christianity was for all intents and purposes a drastic reformation of Judaism, and one that summarily rejected the inherent exclusivity of Jewish law and tradition.

See even the far left narratives claims that being Muslim is a race!

And? Do you have a point, other than trying to distract with red herrings?

Yes being Jewish is a religion and not a "race" or "ethnicity" unless you want to call any community a race or ethnic group!

A community of a common ethnic origin certainly qualifies as an ethnicity.

So now being from the hood is an "ethnic" group!

I almost didn't respond because this is stupid even by your standards. But it's worth noting that like many uneducated slobs you seem to be confusing geography with ethnicity.

What I find amazing is that people like you are so in love with your that you find it so impossible to be presented with information on a subject that you don't know anything about in the first place and say "Oh interesting, I've learned something new." Why this should be so earth shattering for you I can't understand. If anything, it ought to clear up alot of things that would otherwise seem odd. For example, why is it that so many Jews have the same kinds of common features that would be consistent with a distinct race? Why are Jews called Semitic when Semitic is an ethno-linguistic category? Why does the bible talk so much about genealogy of important Jewish figures? Why were there tribes of Jews? Why was it so hard for Jews to hide during the Holocaust? Why wasn't conversion out of Judaism an option to save one's self in Nazi Germany?

 

[Kosh]

Once again this has already been debunked!

There is a difference between debunking something, and uneducated fools like you denying reality.

Being Jewish is about community and nothing else

Now you're contradicting yourself. You said it was a religion. Now you're saying otherwise.

the same exact arguments can be made for any religion including Christians and Muslims.

False. Christianity was for all intents and purposes a drastic reformation of Judaism, and one that summarily rejected the inherent exclusivity of Jewish law and tradition.

See even the far left narratives claims that being Muslim is a race!

And? Do you have a point, other than trying to distract with red herrings?

Yes being Jewish is a religion and not a "race" or "ethnicity" unless you want to call any community a race or ethnic group!

A community of a common ethnic origin certainly qualifies as an ethnicity.

So now being from the hood is an "ethnic" group!

I almost didn't respond because this is stupid even by your standards. But it's worth noting that like many uneducated slobs you seem to be confusing geography with ethnicity.

What I find amazing is that people like you are so in love with your that you find it so impossible to be presented with information on a subject that you don't know anything about in the first place and say "Oh interesting, I've learned something new." Why this should be so earth shattering for you I can't understand. If anything, it ought to clear up alot of things that would otherwise seem odd. For example, why is it that so many Jews have the same kinds of common features that would be consistent with a distinct race? Why are Jews called Semitic when Semitic is an ethno-linguistic category? Why does the bible talk so much about genealogy of important Jewish figures? Why were there tribes of Jews? Why was it so hard for Jews to hide during the Holocaust? Why wasn't conversion out of Judaism an option to save one's self in Nazi Germany?

See when faced with reality they have to resort to 1940's Germany!

I win!

Using Hitler to make your case of Jews being a race, just nullified any argument you have made!

So that would be NO that being Jewish is a "race" and/or "ethnic" group!

 

[ChrisL]

You might be able to claim that Jewish people have their own "culture." But that isn't even really true, as customs can vary depending on where you are from, so I really cannot understand how someone can consider Judaism to be an ethnic group.

 

[SwimExpert]

I never said that race automatically made it a hate crime. I'm saying that if indeed a black person was killed because of a hate crime, and I'm just murdered the same way not being a hate crime, Hate Crime laws protect the black person more than they protect me because I'm not black.

Actually, they didn't protect either of you, because you're both dead. You're dead. What protection did you get? You're starting to sound like a liberal who wants more gun control.

The purpose of these laws isn't to protect people victims, it's to punish criminals.

Therefore, yes, our justice system places more value on the black person. How can you say it doesn't?

Because laws don't assign value to victims they punish the crime. If someone assaults me their crime is a lesser degree than someone who murders you. That doesn't mean that the law places more value on you. It means that the law assigns a higher severity to the different elements of the crimes committed.

 

[SwimExpert]

Once again this has already been debunked!

There is a difference between debunking something, and uneducated fools like you denying reality.

Being Jewish is about community and nothing else

Now you're contradicting yourself. You said it was a religion. Now you're saying otherwise.

the same exact arguments can be made for any religion including Christians and Muslims.

False. Christianity was for all intents and purposes a drastic reformation of Judaism, and one that summarily rejected the inherent exclusivity of Jewish law and tradition.

See even the far left narratives claims that being Muslim is a race!

And? Do you have a point, other than trying to distract with red herrings?

Yes being Jewish is a religion and not a "race" or "ethnicity" unless you want to call any community a race or ethnic group!

A community of a common ethnic origin certainly qualifies as an ethnicity.

So now being from the hood is an "ethnic" group!

I almost didn't respond because this is stupid even by your standards. But it's worth noting that like many uneducated slobs you seem to be confusing geography with ethnicity.

What I find amazing is that people like you are so in love with your that you find it so impossible to be presented with information on a subject that you don't know anything about in the first place and say "Oh interesting, I've learned something new." Why this should be so earth shattering for you I can't understand. If anything, it ought to clear up alot of things that would otherwise seem odd. For example, why is it that so many Jews have the same kinds of common features that would be consistent with a distinct race? Why are Jews called Semitic when Semitic is an ethno-linguistic category? Why does the bible talk so much about genealogy of important Jewish figures? Why were there tribes of Jews? Why was it so hard for Jews to hide during the Holocaust? Why wasn't conversion out of Judaism an option to save one's self in Nazi Germany?

See when faced with reality they have to resort to 1940's Germany!

I win!

Using Hitler to make your case of Jews being a race, just nullified any argument you have made!

So that would be NO that being Jewish is a "race" and/or "ethnic" group!

So making relevant points against your argument means that I lose and you win. Man, I wish I could live in the Matrix like you. I'd be eating steak dinners every night and living the Charlie Sheen life, just without the HIV.

 

[ChrisL]

Once again this has already been debunked!

There is a difference between debunking something, and uneducated fools like you denying reality.

Being Jewish is about community and nothing else

Now you're contradicting yourself. You said it was a religion. Now you're saying otherwise.

the same exact arguments can be made for any religion including Christians and Muslims.

False. Christianity was for all intents and purposes a drastic reformation of Judaism, and one that summarily rejected the inherent exclusivity of Jewish law and tradition.

See even the far left narratives claims that being Muslim is a race!

And? Do you have a point, other than trying to distract with red herrings?

Yes being Jewish is a religion and not a "race" or "ethnicity" unless you want to call any community a race or ethnic group!

A community of a common ethnic origin certainly qualifies as an ethnicity.

So now being from the hood is an "ethnic" group!

I almost didn't respond because this is stupid even by your standards. But it's worth noting that like many uneducated slobs you seem to be confusing geography with ethnicity.

What I find amazing is that people like you are so in love with your that you find it so impossible to be presented with information on a subject that you don't know anything about in the first place and say "Oh interesting, I've learned something new." Why this should be so earth shattering for you I can't understand. If anything, it ought to clear up alot of things that would otherwise seem odd. For example, why is it that so many Jews have the same kinds of common features that would be consistent with a distinct race? Why are Jews called Semitic when Semitic is an ethno-linguistic category? Why does the bible talk so much about genealogy of important Jewish figures? Why were there tribes of Jews? Why was it so hard for Jews to hide during the Holocaust? Why wasn't conversion out of Judaism an option to save one's self in Nazi Germany?

See when faced with reality they have to resort to 1940's Germany!

I win!

Using Hitler to make your case of Jews being a race, just nullified any argument you have made!

So that would be NO that being Jewish is a "race" and/or "ethnic" group!

So making relevant points against your argument means that I lose and you win. Man, I wish I could live in the Matrix like you. I'd be eating steak dinners every night and living the Charlie Sheen life, just without the HIV.

Yes, you are wrong about a lot of things.

 

[ChrisL]

I never said that race automatically made it a hate crime. I'm saying that if indeed a black person was killed because of a hate crime, and I'm just murdered the same way not being a hate crime, Hate Crime laws protect the black person more than they protect me because I'm not black.

Actually, they didn't protect either of you, because you're both dead. You're dead. What protection did you get? You're starting to sound like a liberal who wants more gun control.

The purpose of these laws isn't to protect people victims, it's to punish criminals.

Therefore, yes, our justice system places more value on the black person. How can you say it doesn't?

Because laws don't assign value to victims they punish the crime. If someone assaults me their crime is a lesser degree than someone who murders you. That doesn't mean that the law places more value on you. It means that the law assigns a higher severity to the different elements of the crimes committed.

Comments on this story?

Was Racial Slur Anger or Hate Crime?

 

[Kosh]

Once again this has already been debunked!

There is a difference between debunking something, and uneducated fools like you denying reality.

Being Jewish is about community and nothing else

Now you're contradicting yourself. You said it was a religion. Now you're saying otherwise.

the same exact arguments can be made for any religion including Christians and Muslims.

False. Christianity was for all intents and purposes a drastic reformation of Judaism, and one that summarily rejected the inherent exclusivity of Jewish law and tradition.

See even the far left narratives claims that being Muslim is a race!

And? Do you have a point, other than trying to distract with red herrings?

Yes being Jewish is a religion and not a "race" or "ethnicity" unless you want to call any community a race or ethnic group!

A community of a common ethnic origin certainly qualifies as an ethnicity.

So now being from the hood is an "ethnic" group!

I almost didn't respond because this is stupid even by your standards. But it's worth noting that like many uneducated slobs you seem to be confusing geography with ethnicity.

What I find amazing is that people like you are so in love with your that you find it so impossible to be presented with information on a subject that you don't know anything about in the first place and say "Oh interesting, I've learned something new." Why this should be so earth shattering for you I can't understand. If anything, it ought to clear up alot of things that would otherwise seem odd. For example, why is it that so many Jews have the same kinds of common features that would be consistent with a distinct race? Why are Jews called Semitic when Semitic is an ethno-linguistic category? Why does the bible talk so much about genealogy of important Jewish figures? Why were there tribes of Jews? Why was it so hard for Jews to hide during the Holocaust? Why wasn't conversion out of Judaism an option to save one's self in Nazi Germany?

See when faced with reality they have to resort to 1940's Germany!

I win!

Using Hitler to make your case of Jews being a race, just nullified any argument you have made!

So that would be NO that being Jewish is a "race" and/or "ethnic" group!

So making relevant points against your argument means that I lose and you win. Man, I wish I could live in the Matrix like you. I'd be eating steak dinners every night and living the Charlie Sheen life, just without the HIV.

No making the case that Hitler was a "racist" because he did not like Jews automatically killed any argument that you could make!

Bullock wrote that, "once the war was over, [Hitler] promised himself, he would root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches".

So based on your logic being displayed we can also claim that Christianity is also a "race" and/or "ethnic" group since Hitler wanted it destroyed!