Are "Hate Crime" Laws Constitutional?

[sealybobo]

If you commit a hate crime I don't care if you've changed. Oh fuck off stupid. Obama should let every murderer off based on your position.

See the far left just want hate crimes to label someone and actually not really do anything!

Another far left religious narrative shot down!

Then why do you care?

The purpose of hate crimes is to deter people from commuting them. Stop preying on old black gay Jews.

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Is there evidence that hate crime laws act as a deterrent?

Ask yourself if you were an anti semetic, would you think twice before beating up a guy just because he's wearing a yamaka? I would. It'd make me mad Jews were protected by such a law. Id think they were taking over the country and I'd join the kkk

 

[Tilly]

Bingo ! But the difference is what the guy is thinking. Motive .

So enough of this "what people are thinking doesn't matter " nonsense .

Huh? All three were acts, not thoughts. Are you on LSD?

Sounds as though he'd like laws against thoughts.

no laws against actually hating someone... laws against acting on that hate.

Unless you're psychic or a person admits to it, you can't prove someone acted on hate, yet endless time and money is spent on attempting just that. It's stupid and it isn't what justice should be about.

uh... they go by the WORDS you use when you're committing the attack. i know that doesn't begin to get all of the hate crimes but it's what they use as a threshold.

i hope that helps.

People in extremis and in anger use words they don't mean all the time. A man may call his girlfriend a whore in a very heated and emotional argument but not believe that at all. I'm not for criminalising words and believing you can read someone's mind from what people might say in extreme anger, then adding punishment based on that nonsense. I wonder how much time and money is wasted trying to punish people's thought and emotions. I wonder how many injustices this has led to.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

See the far left just want hate crimes to label someone and actually not really do anything!

Another far left religious narrative shot down!

Then why do you care?

The purpose of hate crimes is to deter people from commuting them. Stop preying on old black gay Jews.

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Well if that's the purpose, then why not do that for all citizens?

Your claim here is that harsher sentences are for added protection. Okay, there we can agree. But why only added protection for victims of crime based on race or sexual preference?

Because those protections are there to solve a societal problem we are having.

It's a deterant. Social engineering. A lot of ignorant folk out there. Why you want to defend their ignorance?

Who you trying to protect?

It's not who I'm trying to protect, it's what I'm trying to protect, and what I'm trying to protect is equality; something liberals don't believe in.

Now you say "to solve a social problem we are having." Well...... don't you think the murders we have in this country are a social problem?

So why are hate crime laws supposed to work? Because it's tougher laws than for other people, or just because they are tougher laws period? Because if it's tougher laws period, then shouldn't we give that extra protection to everybody?

 

[SwimExpert]

No, because if you thought that your life was on the line, and investigations show it wasn't, your thoughts about what you were doing doesn't matter, it's what you did that matters.

That's where the whole "reasonable fear of danger" comes in. So now we've got thoughts and feelings.

But even if I were wrong, you're still admitting that a jury ends up having to explore the thoughts of a defendant.

Sure, if the defendant is using his or her thoughts as defense.

The difference is that what you thought CAUSED you to act a certain way. In hate crimes, race, sexual preference or anything else didn't cause you to do anything. It's what made you want to cause harm or death. It was optional.

Try as you might, you cannot help but to admit and acknowledge that examining the heart and soul of an actor is a vital and pivotal part of our system crime and punishment. Every argument you attempt to level against the fact itself calls for exactly that which you are arguing against.

 

[Tilly]

See the far left just want hate crimes to label someone and actually not really do anything!

Another far left religious narrative shot down!

Then why do you care?

The purpose of hate crimes is to deter people from commuting them. Stop preying on old black gay Jews.

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Is there evidence that hate crime laws act as a deterrent?

Ask yourself if you were an anti semetic, would you think twice before beating up a guy just because he's wearing a yamaka? I would. It'd make me mad Jews were protected by such a law. Id think they were taking over the country and I'd join the kkk

someone who is anti Semitic could get into a fight with a Jew based on everything and anything but the fact he is Jewish. The courts would do their best to add hate crime to the list when his hates are irrelevant to what happened. It is utterly wrong to try to determine people's thoughts and emotions in this way. Hate crime should not exist as an offence until the day our minds and hearts can be read.

 

[sealybobo]

Then why do you care?

The purpose of hate crimes is to deter people from commuting them. Stop preying on old black gay Jews.

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Well if that's the purpose, then why not do that for all citizens?

Your claim here is that harsher sentences are for added protection. Okay, there we can agree. But why only added protection for victims of crime based on race or sexual preference?

Because those protections are there to solve a societal problem we are having.

It's a deterant. Social engineering. A lot of ignorant folk out there. Why you want to defend their ignorance?

Who you trying to protect?

It's not who I'm trying to protect, it's what I'm trying to protect, and what I'm trying to protect is equality; something liberals don't believe in.

Now you say "to solve a social problem we are having." Well...... don't you think the murders we have in this country are a social problem?

So why are hate crime laws supposed to work? Because it's tougher laws than for other people, or just because they are tougher laws period? Because if it's tougher laws period, then shouldn't we give that extra protection to everybody?

Let's say you are carjacked and murdered for your car. The penalty is whatever it it. Doesn't matter. Not the point. Point is that's not a hate crime. I get your point but if a white racist shoots up a black church, that's a hate crime.

Not all murders are equal. Circumstances matter.

 

[Tilly]

See the far left just want hate crimes to label someone and actually not really do anything!

Another far left religious narrative shot down!

Then why do you care?

The purpose of hate crimes is to deter people from commuting them. Stop preying on old black gay Jews.

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Is there evidence that hate crime laws act as a deterrent?

Ask yourself if you were an anti semetic, would you think twice before beating up a guy just because he's wearing a yamaka? I would. It'd make me mad Jews were protected by such a law. Id think they were taking over the country and I'd join the kkk

I'm still interested to see evidence that hate being made a crime has acted as an effective deterrent.

 

[ChrisL]

See the far left just want hate crimes to label someone and actually not really do anything!

Another far left religious narrative shot down!

Then why do you care?

The purpose of hate crimes is to deter people from commuting them. Stop preying on old black gay Jews.

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Is there evidence that hate crime laws act as a deterrent?

Ask yourself if you were an anti semetic, would you think twice before beating up a guy just because he's wearing a yamaka? I would. It'd make me mad Jews were protected by such a law. Id think they were taking over the country and I'd join the kkk

 

[sealybobo]

Then why do you care?

The purpose of hate crimes is to deter people from commuting them. Stop preying on old black gay Jews.

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Is there evidence that hate crime laws act as a deterrent?

Ask yourself if you were an anti semetic, would you think twice before beating up a guy just because he's wearing a yamaka? I would. It'd make me mad Jews were protected by such a law. Id think they were taking over the country and I'd join the kkk

someone who is anti Semitic could get into a fight with a Jew based on everything and anything but the fact he is Jewish. The courts would do their best to add hate crime to the list when his hates are irrelevant to what happened. It is utterly wrong to try to determine people's thoughts and emotions in this way. Hate crime should not exist as an offence until the day our minds and hearts can be read.

It has to be proven. Just because he's Jewish doesn't make you guilty of a hate crime. Yelling fn Jews when you do it might add to your sentence though.

Too many murderers walk. If they might walk in 20 I'd like to add ten for hate crimers

 

[Tilly]

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Well if that's the purpose, then why not do that for all citizens?

Your claim here is that harsher sentences are for added protection. Okay, there we can agree. But why only added protection for victims of crime based on race or sexual preference?

Because those protections are there to solve a societal problem we are having.

It's a deterant. Social engineering. A lot of ignorant folk out there. Why you want to defend their ignorance?

Who you trying to protect?

It's not who I'm trying to protect, it's what I'm trying to protect, and what I'm trying to protect is equality; something liberals don't believe in.

Now you say "to solve a social problem we are having." Well...... don't you think the murders we have in this country are a social problem?

So why are hate crime laws supposed to work? Because it's tougher laws than for other people, or just because they are tougher laws period? Because if it's tougher laws period, then shouldn't we give that extra protection to everybody?

Let's say you are carjacked and murdered for your car. The penalty is whatever it it. Doesn't matter. Not the point. Point is that's not a hate crime. I get your point but if a white racist shoots up a black church, that's a hate crime.

Not all murders are equal. Circumstances matter.

So Ray is worth less.
Nah.

 

[sealybobo]

Then why do you care?

The purpose of hate crimes is to deter people from commuting them. Stop preying on old black gay Jews.

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Is there evidence that hate crime laws act as a deterrent?

Ask yourself if you were an anti semetic, would you think twice before beating up a guy just because he's wearing a yamaka? I would. It'd make me mad Jews were protected by such a law. Id think they were taking over the country and I'd join the kkk

I'm still interested to see evidence that hate being made a crime has acted as an effective deterrent.

Do you have the internet? Look it up.

I haven't heard any hate crimes happening lately.

Last one was a gang of black detroiters beat up a black gay who was going to a gay pride event in the summer

 

[Tilly]

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Is there evidence that hate crime laws act as a deterrent?

Ask yourself if you were an anti semetic, would you think twice before beating up a guy just because he's wearing a yamaka? I would. It'd make me mad Jews were protected by such a law. Id think they were taking over the country and I'd join the kkk

someone who is anti Semitic could get into a fight with a Jew based on everything and anything but the fact he is Jewish. The courts would do their best to add hate crime to the list when his hates are irrelevant to what happened. It is utterly wrong to try to determine people's thoughts and emotions in this way. Hate crime should not exist as an offence until the day our minds and hearts can be read.

It has to be proven. Just because he's Jewish doesn't make you guilty of a hate crime. Yelling fn Jews when you do it might add to your sentence though.

Too many murderers walk. If they might walk in 20 I'd like to add ten for hate crimers

It can't be proven. That's the point.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No, because if you thought that your life was on the line, and investigations show it wasn't, your thoughts about what you were doing doesn't matter, it's what you did that matters.

That's where the whole "reasonable fear of danger" comes in. So now we've got thoughts and feelings.

But even if I were wrong, you're still admitting that a jury ends up having to explore the thoughts of a defendant.

Sure, if the defendant is using his or her thoughts as defense.

The difference is that what you thought CAUSED you to act a certain way. In hate crimes, race, sexual preference or anything else didn't cause you to do anything. It's what made you want to cause harm or death. It was optional.

Try as you might, you cannot help but to admit and acknowledge that examining the heart and soul of an actor is a vital and pivotal part of our system crime and punishment.

Maybe, but that's what we have judges for; to determine the sincerity of the accused.

So let's say that a person is murdered because he was black. Another gets murdered because he had money on him. Why is the motive of black hatred more wrong than the motive of stealing money? They're both equally wrong. Both motives ended up in murder.

But given your stance, you believe that murdering somebody because of their sexual preference is worse than murdering somebody because he farted next to his wife. Both victims were murdered. How is one murder better than the other?

 

[Tilly]

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Is there evidence that hate crime laws act as a deterrent?

Ask yourself if you were an anti semetic, would you think twice before beating up a guy just because he's wearing a yamaka? I would. It'd make me mad Jews were protected by such a law. Id think they were taking over the country and I'd join the kkk

I'm still interested to see evidence that hate being made a crime has acted as an effective deterrent.

Do you have the internet? Look it up.

I haven't heard any hate crimes happening lately.

Last one was a gang of black detroiters beat up a black gay who was going to a gay pride event in the summer

With all due respect, Sealybobo, you are claiming the addition of an extra crime called 'hate' has acted as a deterrent. I'm just asking you to prove it because I suspect that is untrue.

 

[ChrisL]

See the far left just want hate crimes to label someone and actually not really do anything!

Another far left religious narrative shot down!

Then why do you care?

The purpose of hate crimes is to deter people from commuting them. Stop preying on old black gay Jews.

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Is there evidence that hate crime laws act as a deterrent?

Ask yourself if you were an anti semetic, would you think twice before beating up a guy just because he's wearing a yamaka? I would. It'd make me mad Jews were protected by such a law. Id think they were taking over the country and I'd join the kkk

If a known about hate group beats up on a guy BECAUSE of his skin color, that is something else. However, that is certainly not the case in a lot of "hate crime" scenarios. And I also have to wonder, as others have mentioned, why is it worse for a person to murder another person because of his or her skin color than it is because they think he or she is rich? Both are scummy and I don't see one being any worse than other. The outcome is the same.

Or . . . is it worse to murder someone because you don't like the group of people as opposed to murdering someone because you personally don't like that person? How can you say one is worse than the other and/or deserving of a more harsh punishment? What does deserve harsher punishment is if the murder was planned in advance, hence capital or first-degree murder charges.

 

[sealybobo]

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Well if that's the purpose, then why not do that for all citizens?

Your claim here is that harsher sentences are for added protection. Okay, there we can agree. But why only added protection for victims of crime based on race or sexual preference?

Because those protections are there to solve a societal problem we are having.

It's a deterant. Social engineering. A lot of ignorant folk out there. Why you want to defend their ignorance?

Who you trying to protect?

It's not who I'm trying to protect, it's what I'm trying to protect, and what I'm trying to protect is equality; something liberals don't believe in.

Now you say "to solve a social problem we are having." Well...... don't you think the murders we have in this country are a social problem?

So why are hate crime laws supposed to work? Because it's tougher laws than for other people, or just because they are tougher laws period? Because if it's tougher laws period, then shouldn't we give that extra protection to everybody?

Let's say you are carjacked and murdered for your car. The penalty is whatever it it. Doesn't matter. Not the point. Point is that's not a hate crime. I get your point but if a white racist shoots up a black church, that's a hate crime.

Not all murders are equal. Circumstances matter.

So Ray is worth less.
Nah.

You aren't worth less. It's about the two different murderers. Them not you

 

[Tilly]

No, because if you thought that your life was on the line, and investigations show it wasn't, your thoughts about what you were doing doesn't matter, it's what you did that matters.

That's where the whole "reasonable fear of danger" comes in. So now we've got thoughts and feelings.

But even if I were wrong, you're still admitting that a jury ends up having to explore the thoughts of a defendant.

Sure, if the defendant is using his or her thoughts as defense.

The difference is that what you thought CAUSED you to act a certain way. In hate crimes, race, sexual preference or anything else didn't cause you to do anything. It's what made you want to cause harm or death. It was optional.

Try as you might, you cannot help but to admit and acknowledge that examining the heart and soul of an actor is a vital and pivotal part of our system crime and punishment. Every argument you attempt to level against the fact itself calls for exactly that which you are arguing against.

Examining motive in a crime arose because if there is scant evidence, finding a motive could point investigators in the right direction and help solve the crime. That's as far as it should go.

 

[sealybobo]

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Is there evidence that hate crime laws act as a deterrent?

Ask yourself if you were an anti semetic, would you think twice before beating up a guy just because he's wearing a yamaka? I would. It'd make me mad Jews were protected by such a law. Id think they were taking over the country and I'd join the kkk

I'm still interested to see evidence that hate being made a crime has acted as an effective deterrent.

Do you have the internet? Look it up.

I haven't heard any hate crimes happening lately.

Last one was a gang of black detroiters beat up a black gay who was going to a gay pride event in the summer

With all due respect, Sealybobo, you are claiming the addition of an extra crime called 'hate' has acted as a deterrent. I'm just asking you to prove it because I suspect that is untrue.

Nope

 

[Tilly]

Does it work?

Yes it does. I can only speak for me but I would think twice before picking on a black or gay just for being black or gay. Knowing I could get charged with a hate crime might make me think twice. That's the purpose.

Nothing is fool proof

Is there evidence that hate crime laws act as a deterrent?

Ask yourself if you were an anti semetic, would you think twice before beating up a guy just because he's wearing a yamaka? I would. It'd make me mad Jews were protected by such a law. Id think they were taking over the country and I'd join the kkk

someone who is anti Semitic could get into a fight with a Jew based on everything and anything but the fact he is Jewish. The courts would do their best to add hate crime to the list when his hates are irrelevant to what happened. It is utterly wrong to try to determine people's thoughts and emotions in this way. Hate crime should not exist as an offence until the day our minds and hearts can be read.

It has to be proven. Just because he's Jewish doesn't make you guilty of a hate crime. Yelling fn Jews when you do it might add to your sentence though.

Too many murderers walk. If they might walk in 20 I'd like to add ten for hate crimers

Dear G-d above. When people are fighting, they might yell all manner of things. So freaking what? STICKS AND STONES.

 

[Tilly]

Is there evidence that hate crime laws act as a deterrent?

Ask yourself if you were an anti semetic, would you think twice before beating up a guy just because he's wearing a yamaka? I would. It'd make me mad Jews were protected by such a law. Id think they were taking over the country and I'd join the kkk

I'm still interested to see evidence that hate being made a crime has acted as an effective deterrent.

Do you have the internet? Look it up.

I haven't heard any hate crimes happening lately.

Last one was a gang of black detroiters beat up a black gay who was going to a gay pride event in the summer

With all due respect, Sealybobo, you are claiming the addition of an extra crime called 'hate' has acted as a deterrent. I'm just asking you to prove it because I suspect that is untrue.

Nope

No what? Put your money where your mouth is. It's a most important element in this discussion.