Are we heading into proxy wars with Russia ?

[Ringo]

, and hate the Ukrainians.

Maybe he doesn't like the nazis?
By the way, why does the United States vote at the UN against the adoption of an international law banning the glorification of Nazism? The United States and Ukraine, two countries in the world vote against it.
I am sure that they are doing this for the sake of freedom and democracy.

 

[Mushroom]

By the way, why does the United States vote at the UN against the adoption of an international law banning the glorification of Nazism?

OMG, are you even aware of what you are trying to say?

That is an absolutely garbage and token resolution that first the USSR and then Russia have been putting in front of the UN every single year since it was founded!

It is not a "law", it bans nothing. It is a non-binding resolution, that when the Russians revised it in 2017 they proposed making it enforceable, as well as demanding that it also be expanded into other areas. That is why it was voted against.

You know, the US has this little thing called the "Constitution". And like it or not, it guarantees even complete morons the right to say and publish anything they want. If somebody wants to write a book praising Der Paper Hangar and Il Lamp Ornament, they have every right to do so under our laws. And I had absolutely no issue with the paper only non-binding resolution that had been passed for decades.

But when Russia tried to make it enforceable, that is when I draw the line. That then is going directly against free speech. And here is the beautiful thing about such if you really believe in it. It does not matter if you agree with what is being said or not. You either believe all have the right to say what they believe, or you are a hypocrite and only want to see a world where only what you say and believe is allowed to be said, and nobody who opposes your beliefs has a right to say anything.

So sorry, you not only fail, you spectacularly failed in trying to bring this up at all.

So I can only believe you are a believer in suppressing the thoughts and speech of others, simply because you do not like them.

And BTW, over 3/4 of European nations abstained from voting that year. With the US veto they knew it was dead, but they also did not like those changes the Russians tried to make.

 

[ESay]

If the Ukraine was smart, they would get off their ass and join NATO.

In fact, I almost laughed when Putin threatened to invade the Ukraine if they joined NATO. He would be much happier hacking off a piece of the country unopposed than to have that happen. And myself, I am seeing more and more that Purin is copying the Hitler guidebook to national expansion.

Unlikely to happen. At least in the foreseeable future. Most European countries are too scared of Russia.

Which is why so much of the former Warsaw Pact later joined NATO in the first place.

Yes, it is. But they fear to 'provoke' Russia. And that is not much about East European countries. That is more about Western Europe.

Or, may be, they are too scary of the Ukrainians. You know - Volyn's Massacre, Lvov's Pogrom, Burning in Khatyn, etc... Say nothing about modern crimes of the Ukrainian Nazies.

Dude, let's be honest. The vast majority of the Europeans have never heard about those things. Stop listening to Russian propaganda. You are becoming ridiculous.

 

[Ringo]

Why NATO tanks are not taking part of this competition?

 

[Mushroom]

Why NATO tanks are not taking part of this competition?

Uhhh, because it is nothing but a Russian propaganda tool, to help them sell their own tanks?

And no, I am not kidding. It is only open to tanks made in Russia, or based on those designed by Russia. No NATO tanks allowed.

Sorry, but that literally is about as retarded as asking why no NATO countries are involved. How many NATO countries still use Soviet era tanks as their main tank? As you think about that, I will also let you wonder why no European car companies participate in having vehicles involved in NASCAR.

Wow, this is really about as dumb as I have ever seen in here. You literally pulled up video of a promotional stunt.

And in 8 years, want to guess who has won that competition every single time?

No, once again, not a joke. Guess what country has won that competition every time since 2013?

And if you guess anything other than "Russia", you are wrong.

 

[DudleySmith]

Proxy wars are better than direct wars.

Bottom line though, America has to lead loudly and decisively. We need a U.S empire. Start by defending your border ffs and rid the scouge of socialism and treasonous "Cancel Culture" profiteers.

Indeed they are. And, we have never actually stopped having proxy wars with Russia, and before us, it was Britain vs Russia, then France vs Russia, etc. Russia has always been aggressively expansionist as a modern state at least since Peter The Great modernized the country, and became even more imperialist under the Communist Party. There is an excellent book by Peter Hopkirk, The Great Game, that is a good read on the politics of Central Asia, for those interested in the 'Cold Wars' before the most recent 'Cold War' after WW II. It took Truman's 'Containment' policy and LBJ's Viet Nam and Middle East escalation policies to finally bankrupt the beast, shutting down the Khrushchev/Brezhnev Doctrine for good in 1973. After that they rattled a saber or two, still trying to convince themselves they were still a 'super power', even though they were now completely dependent on western grain and refined petroleum products after 1973.

Their Arab 'allies' blamed them for their defeats by the Israelis in '67 and '73 and dumped them, even though that was bullshit, they just sucked at anything resembling running modern armies and lost due to their own ineptness and corruption, and the Arab Embargoes hurt the Russians a lot more than it did anybody else at the time outside of India, along with a global food shortage also mostly concurrent with the embargoes, but gets little notice these days, even though it was almost as big a contributor to global inflation rates as the 'energy shortage' of the 1970's.



n 1236 Mongol horsemen swept westward through Russia, tying serfs to the Tartar yoke. The Golden Horde would exact tribute until Ivan the Terrible defeated the khanates of Kazan and Astrakhan in the mid 1500's, opening the way for expansion east through Siberia. Peter the Great turned his gaze south, through the Caucasus and Caspian towards Persia, yet was thwarted by Nader Shah in 1735. In 1757 the British began major territorial gains in India. The aspirations and apprehensions of these rival European empires became the 'Great Game', played out in Central Asia during the 1800's.

In the late 18th century, the British were concerned with Catherine the Great's expansion into Crimea, but distracted by the rise of Napoleon. The Russian defeat of the French in 1812 helped to end one concern but created another. Threat of a Russian attack on India (via Turkey and Tehran) obsessed the British, and a cold war Russophobia took hold. Tsar Alexander I sent envoys to Khiva (present day Uzbekistan) to make allies and secure forward positions. British probed passes of Afghanistan seeking similar advantage in Bukhara, a neighboring kingdom on the Silk Road.

From the Reviews at Amazon; don't know why the link won't show up, but you can find it by a search on the title and author.

 

[Silver Cat]

If the Ukraine was smart, they would get off their ass and join NATO.

In fact, I almost laughed when Putin threatened to invade the Ukraine if they joined NATO. He would be much happier hacking off a piece of the country unopposed than to have that happen. And myself, I am seeing more and more that Purin is copying the Hitler guidebook to national expansion.

Unlikely to happen. At least in the foreseeable future. Most European countries are too scared of Russia.

Which is why so much of the former Warsaw Pact later joined NATO in the first place.

Yes, it is. But they fear to 'provoke' Russia. And that is not much about East European countries. That is more about Western Europe.

Or, may be, they are too scary of the Ukrainians. You know - Volyn's Massacre, Lvov's Pogrom, Burning in Khatyn, etc... Say nothing about modern crimes of the Ukrainian Nazies.

Dude, let's be honest. The vast majority of the Europeans have never heard about those things. Stop listening to Russian propaganda. You are becoming ridiculous.

Jews and East Europeans (especially Poles) have heard (and not only heard, but genocided too). Germans remember. Anyway - we hardly need in NATO undisciplined Brits (and other Europeans) and we don't need there uncontrollable Ukrainians at all.
And yes, those, who don't know about Volyn Massacre and other Pogroms - don't know the difference between Russians and Ukrainians, too.

 

[ESay]

If the Ukraine was smart, they would get off their ass and join NATO.

In fact, I almost laughed when Putin threatened to invade the Ukraine if they joined NATO. He would be much happier hacking off a piece of the country unopposed than to have that happen. And myself, I am seeing more and more that Purin is copying the Hitler guidebook to national expansion.

Unlikely to happen. At least in the foreseeable future. Most European countries are too scared of Russia.

Which is why so much of the former Warsaw Pact later joined NATO in the first place.

Yes, it is. But they fear to 'provoke' Russia. And that is not much about East European countries. That is more about Western Europe.

Or, may be, they are too scary of the Ukrainians. You know - Volyn's Massacre, Lvov's Pogrom, Burning in Khatyn, etc... Say nothing about modern crimes of the Ukrainian Nazies.

Dude, let's be honest. The vast majority of the Europeans have never heard about those things. Stop listening to Russian propaganda. You are becoming ridiculous.

Jews and East Europeans (especially Poles) have heard (and not only heard, but genocided too). Germans remember. Anyway - we hardly need in NATO undisciplined Brits (and other Europeans) and we don't need there uncontrollable Ukrainians at all.
And yes, those, who don't know about Volyn Massacre and other Pogroms - don't know the difference between Russians and Ukrainians, too.

Yeah, and Poland is one of the main advocates of Ukraine's integration in NATO.

I don't know what 'you' need. Something tells me that includes disintegration of NATO and the EU, allowing Russia to expand its sphere at the cost of East European nations, etc. And quite possible you will follow this narrative with regard of China.

All that of course to prevent a nuclear war. A favorite thing of Russian propagandists, I should admit.

 

[Silver Cat]

If the Ukraine was smart, they would get off their ass and join NATO.

In fact, I almost laughed when Putin threatened to invade the Ukraine if they joined NATO. He would be much happier hacking off a piece of the country unopposed than to have that happen. And myself, I am seeing more and more that Purin is copying the Hitler guidebook to national expansion.

Unlikely to happen. At least in the foreseeable future. Most European countries are too scared of Russia.

Which is why so much of the former Warsaw Pact later joined NATO in the first place.

Yes, it is. But they fear to 'provoke' Russia. And that is not much about East European countries. That is more about Western Europe.

Or, may be, they are too scary of the Ukrainians. You know - Volyn's Massacre, Lvov's Pogrom, Burning in Khatyn, etc... Say nothing about modern crimes of the Ukrainian Nazies.

Dude, let's be honest. The vast majority of the Europeans have never heard about those things. Stop listening to Russian propaganda. You are becoming ridiculous.

Jews and East Europeans (especially Poles) have heard (and not only heard, but genocided too). Germans remember. Anyway - we hardly need in NATO undisciplined Brits (and other Europeans) and we don't need there uncontrollable Ukrainians at all.
And yes, those, who don't know about Volyn Massacre and other Pogroms - don't know the difference between Russians and Ukrainians, too.

Yeah, and Poland is one of the main advocates of Ukraine's integration in NATO.

Yes. But what Ukraine they want to 'integrate'? A Polish colony or a heir of Kievan Rus (largest European state)?

I don't know what 'you' need. Something tells me that includes disintegration of NATO and the EU, allowing Russia to expand its sphere at the cost of East European nations, etc. And quite possible you will follow this narrative with regard of China.

All that of course to prevent a nuclear war. A favorite thing of Russian propagandists, I should admit.

I don't want to 'prevent' a nuclear war (at least because it is impossible). I want to win it. And 'proxy wars' isn't the way.

 

[Ringo]

And no, I am not kidding. It is only open to tanks made in Russia, or based on those designed by Russia. No NATO tanks allowed.

And in 8 years, want to guess who has won that competition every single time?
No, once again, not a joke. Guess what country has won that competition every time since 2013?
And if you guess anything other than "Russia", you are wrong.

"The competition is held on a T-72 type tank or similar equipment (hereinafter referred to as a tank).When firing from a cannon, ammunition with an initial projectile velocity of no more than 1000 m/s is used.
If the tactical and technical characteristics of the sample submitted for the competition differ significantly from the T-72 type tank, the corresponding coefficients are accepted."

So I think NATO is not involved for other reasons. In this competition, people compete, not machines. Just like in hockey, it's not sticks and helmets that compete, but people and their skills.
Speaking of hockey, do you think that the fact that out of 34 World hockey сhampionships in which the USSR participated, the soviet hockey team took first place 22 times, is somehow connected with the superiority of soviet sticks, helmets and skates?

 

[ESay]

Yes. But what Ukraine they want to 'integrate'? A Polish colony or a heir of Kievan Rus (largest European state)?

That one which exists today. It is doubtful Poland can afford a colony of Ukraine's size.

I don't want to 'prevent' a nuclear war (at least because it is impossible). I want to win it. And 'proxy wars' isn't the way

Basically, in the case of a nuclear war the winner will mean only a formality. All sides want to prevent it.

I consider talks about such war as meaningless and ridiculous. That is not 1960s now. I think it is more possible that aliens from Alpha Centauri will attack us.

 

[Silver Cat]

Yes. But what Ukraine they want to 'integrate'? A Polish colony or a heir of Kievan Rus (largest European state)?

That one which exists today.

No. Nobody wants modern Ukraine. Neither Russia, nor Poland, nor EU, nor NATO, nor the USA, nor even Ukrainians. Do you want Ukraine staying in this position forever?

It is doubtful Poland can afford a colony of Ukraine's size.

Sure, they can. I don't mean that they are going to be really effective managers, but they want to try.

I don't want to 'prevent' a nuclear war (at least because it is impossible). I want to win it. And 'proxy wars' isn't the way

Basically, in the case of a nuclear war the winner will mean only a formality. All sides want to prevent it.

All sides want to survive and achieve their goals. The issue of the war and peace is just a question of tools.

I consider talks about such war as meaningless and ridiculous. That is not 1960s now. I think it is more possible that aliens from Alpha Centauri will attack us.

You "consider"... Nice. Actually it is not important what "consider" non-nuclear states or even minor nuclear powers. Both Russia and the USA believe that the possibility of the war is pretty real.

 

[ESay]

No. Nobody wants modern Ukraine. Neither Russia, nor Poland, nor EU, nor NATO, nor the USA, nor even Ukrainians. Do you want Ukraine staying in this position forever

In what position? Actually, it is ridiculous assertion. If 'nobody' wanted it, this country wouldn't exist now.

Sure, they can. I don't mean that they are going to be really effective managers, but they want to try

At first, let they support their country without the EU's money. And only after that it possible to talk about their expansion.

You "consider"... Nice. Actually it is not important what "consider" non-nuclear states or even minor nuclear powers. Both Russia and the USA believe that the possibility of the war is pretty real

And? I think you don't represent an official position of nuclear powers. And if you are parroting about nuclear war hear and there, it doesn't become true.

 

[Gracie]

Biden is already openly sabre rattling with Putin over Ukraine
and behind the scenes building our military presence back up in Syria.

Trump Tells Biden To Give Putin His âWarmest Regards,â Reminisces On âGreatâ Helsinki Summit

The ex-president claimed he ‘won much’ in Helsinki, including the ‘respect of President Putin,’ and told Biden, ‘don’t fall asleep.’

www.forbes.com

I'd rather battle Putin than Xi. Putin seems more..well...not as cray cray.

 

[DudleySmith]

Biden is already openly sabre rattling with Putin over Ukraine
and behind the scenes building our military presence back up in Syria.

Trump Tells Biden To Give Putin His âWarmest Regards,â Reminisces On âGreatâ Helsinki Summit

The ex-president claimed he ‘won much’ in Helsinki, including the ‘respect of President Putin,’ and told Biden, ‘don’t fall asleep.’

www.forbes.com

I'd rather battle Putin than Xi. Putin seems more..well...not as cray cray.

Well, since he has to hide his $40 billion in western banks, he would essentially be bankrupting himself, you're probably right there. He's essentially just an extortionist, like Biden, so it's just a matter of standing up to him when he bullies his weak neighbors.

 

[Ringo]

Well, since he has to hide his $40 billion in western banks, he would essentially be bankrupting himself,

I heard it is 4 trillions.... From a very reliable source.

 

[DudleySmith]

$40 billion is pretty conservative estimate; he's been a dictator for a long time of a major oil and gas exporting country that is also incredibly wealthy in many other valuable minerals and commodities as well, and doesn't have to share a lot of it out like the Arab countries have to do. In any case, it would easily drop to zero the second he lost his power, so he can't retire and enjoy it without the circling sharks eating him alive, so there is that. One of the downsides of being a dictator is all the enemies you make on the way up and staying at the top of the shit pile. $40 billion probably isn't enough to keep him safe.

 

[DudleySmith]

Well, since he has to hide his $40 billion in western banks, he would essentially be bankrupting himself,

I heard it is 4 trillions.... From a very reliable source.

That's nice.

 

[Silver Cat]

No. Nobody wants modern Ukraine. Neither Russia, nor Poland, nor EU, nor NATO, nor the USA, nor even Ukrainians. Do you want Ukraine staying in this position forever

In what position? Actually, it is ridiculous assertion. If 'nobody' wanted it, this country wouldn't exist now.

Yes. Ukraine is not a state. It's a territory. The Borderland, more or less controlled by Moscow, Paris, Berlin and may be Washington.

Sure, they can. I don't mean that they are going to be really effective managers, but they want to try

At first, let they support their country without the EU's money. And only after that it possible to talk about their expansion.

No. They are not going to conquer Ukraine to give money to the Ukrainians. They are going to conquer Ukraine to take money and resources from Ukrainians.

You "consider"... Nice. Actually it is not important what "consider" non-nuclear states or even minor nuclear powers. Both Russia and the USA believe that the possibility of the war is pretty real

And? I think you don't represent an official position of nuclear powers. And if you are parroting about nuclear war hear and there, it doesn't become true.

Do you want an official position? No problem.

Nuclear war with China or Russia a 'real possibility,' STRATCOM commander warns

The head of U.S. Strategic Command is calling for reimagining methods of deterring aggressive action from rivals such as China and Russia, including the "real possibility" of nuclear war.

www.foxnews.com

 

[ESay]

Yes. Ukraine is not a state. It's a territory. The Borderland, more or less controlled by Moscow, Paris, Berlin and may be Washington

You can consider it whatever you want. It doesn't change a thing. Every 'small' country is controlled by a bigger one to some extent, btw.

No. They are not going to conquer Ukraine to give money to the Ukrainians. They are going to conquer Ukraine to take money and resources from Ukrainians

Poland conquering Ukraine? From Uzhhorod to Mariupol? Dude, do you understand how ridiculous you look now?

Do you want an official position? No problem

Okay, this guy is saying in tune with you. Well, it would be strange to hear the opposite from a guy whose job is supervising nuclear deterrence forces.