Baker investigated for refusing to make same sex wedding cake

[Sunshine]

You are not understanding the correct principle. The reason I won my lawsuit is because the lesbian couple could not prove that I was in the business of portraiture. They proved that I had a dog grooming shop, but I didn't discriminate against their dog. They proved that my artwork was on display but did not prove that I refused to sell them any artwork already produced. They proved that on occasion I did paint the portraits of friends. But they could never prove that I was in the business of portraiture and they were entitled to the protection of public accommodation laws.

Your seamstress is in the same position as my mechanic who refuses to work for black people. He doesn't have to say he's too busy. He just says no. Since he's not in "business" he's not a place of public accommodation. Of course this is supported by the courts who cannot force someone to basically do a favor for someone else. As you said IF the person is open to the public. That's a very big IF and it does have to be proved.

I think it would be difficult to prove that a baker was not open to the public for wedding cakes. I doubt most do the decorating themselves, but have people hired who do the job. You just don't hire people to do favors for friends.

It's actually very easy. Especially if you have to hire a cake decorator and don't actually do the decorating yourself. Now the customer is in the position of not only forcing the baker to bake the cake, but hire a decorator too. You might THINK that it would be hard for a baker wasn't open to the public for wedding cakes but all they have to do is say "we don't do wedding cakes".

Eventually there will be a two-tier wedding cake industry. Probably many other kinds of business enterprises also. Those that are open to the public, and those that are not.

Have it your way. But years ago, before I went to school, I learned at the local community college in their community education classes how to decorate cakes. I sold cakes for sevaral years. They brought in a lot of money to this stay at home mom. Then for a while I helped out a local caterer. The only way she could stay in business was her wedding business. I'm not sure I see a baker being able to give up a lucrative part of the business. Here we do have bakers who do ONLY cupcakes, but I don't think they make exceptions and do wedding cakes for friends 'Building' a wedding cake is quite a different process than decorating a cupcake or baking a cookie. A wedding cake takes dowels through each layer t support the next. The stuff like colums used on them is quite expensive to buy. I always made the person pay for the stuff on the cake and then refunded the money when they returned the stuff as no on really wanted to buy it because they had no use for it.

 

[AmyNation]

Similar vein, there was a show on the food network, baker king or something... And a woman came in and wanted to commission a cake for her bachelorette party, and she wanted it to be a giant penis. The baker told her, he doesn't make graphic cakes. He should have that right, just like the baker in this story.

 

[Sunshine]

Opting out of public accommodation has been around for a long time. I know several asian bars that are simply never open. They've been there for years. They are patronized mostly by Japanese, there are rumors that they don't pay attention to smoking or prostitution laws. They are following the old speakeasy model. They don't even rise to the level of private club. They just have lights out, locked doors and a big CLOSED sign on the front door. Yet the parking lot is full night after night, deliveries still get made. I doubt if they even have a business license.

And those businesses would be illegal. Having a front for an illegal business does not make it legal.

 

[Katzndogz]

IMO, if you have a business that is open to the public, like a restaurant, then you can't discriminate. However if you have a business where it's an individual contract, like photography or in this case a commissioned cake, then you should be allowed to refuse service for any reason.

Sorry, but this makes no sense.

A business is a business, whether one sells ‘ready made’ products from a store shelf or provides services such as rug cleaning or baking specialty wedding cakes – both are equally subject to a state's public accommodations law.

They are subject to public accommodation laws ONLY if their product or service is offered to the public. You won't get very far if you go to the doughnut shop and demand that they make you a wedding cake. Wedding cakes is not a service they offer to the public. Neither can you force Betty Sue to make you a wedding cake no matter how beautiful or delicious the ones she makes are, if she doesn't offer her services to the public.

There will just be a continuation of the practice of not offering services to the public. There will be those who do, and whatever the group to avoid wants will have to make their choices from what is publicly available.

 

[Sunshine]

IMO, if you have a business that is open to the public, like a restaurant, then you can't discriminate. However if you have a business where it's an individual contract, like photography or in this case a commissioned cake, then you should be allowed to refuse service for any reason.

Sorry, but this makes no sense.

A business is a business, whether one sells ‘ready made’ products from a store shelf or provides services such as rug cleaning or baking specialty wedding cakes – both are equally subject to a state's public accommodations law.

Nonsense.

There is a business that by its nature is open to the public and one where you are offering for my individual specialized services. So if I go into a bakery in a KKK outfit, you don't have the right to not sell me the cookies on display. However you should have the right to refuse if I want to contract with you to make me a special cake for a KKK rally.

I hate to break it to you, but the KKK cannot be refused a parade permit by a city. The only restriction on their right to burn a cross is they must it out of sight of somene who would feel threatened by it.

 

[Katzndogz]

Opting out of public accommodation has been around for a long time. I know several asian bars that are simply never open. They've been there for years. They are patronized mostly by Japanese, there are rumors that they don't pay attention to smoking or prostitution laws. They are following the old speakeasy model. They don't even rise to the level of private club. They just have lights out, locked doors and a big CLOSED sign on the front door. Yet the parking lot is full night after night, deliveries still get made. I doubt if they even have a business license.

And those businesses would be illegal. Having a front for an illegal business does not make it legal.

They aren't illegal. Which is why they have existed for decades. Long before Americans started doing it. It is not illegal to have smoking on private property and swingers have been screwing around for decades. That's not illegal either. They aren't fronts. A front is a legal business that serves as a front for an illegal business. What we are discussing is no business at all. It's a closed up bar. It's not offered for rent for private parties, it's not a club, and it definitely isn't open to the public.

 

[Papageorgio]

Similar vein, there was a show on the food network, baker king or something... And a woman came in and wanted to commission a cake for her bachelorette party, and she wanted it to be a giant penis. The baker told her, he doesn't make graphic cakes. He should have that right, just like the baker in this story.

Not the same, they baker refused because of the type or content, not due to discrimination. He doesn't provide the type of cake request, he doesn't sell it to one group and not another.

 

[Sunshine]

Similar vein, there was a show on the food network, baker king or something... And a woman came in and wanted to commission a cake for her bachelorette party, and she wanted it to be a giant penis. The baker told her, he doesn't make graphic cakes. He should have that right, just like the baker in this story.

Apples and oranges. Not the same at all. When I was doing cakes, I make a 'bikini' cake. But I wouldn't do nude. And I turned down a penis cake as well. Choosing the merchandise is not the same as choosing the customer.

 

[Katzndogz]

Sorry, but this makes no sense.

A business is a business, whether one sells ‘ready made’ products from a store shelf or provides services such as rug cleaning or baking specialty wedding cakes – both are equally subject to a state's public accommodations law.

Nonsense.

There is a business that by its nature is open to the public and one where you are offering for my individual specialized services. So if I go into a bakery in a KKK outfit, you don't have the right to not sell me the cookies on display. However you should have the right to refuse if I want to contract with you to make me a special cake for a KKK rally.

I hate to break it to you, but the KKK cannot be refused a parade permit by a city. The only restriction on their right to burn a cross is they must it out of sight of somene who would feel threatened by it.

Surely you don't really mean to equate a city permit with a private contract.

 

[Sunshine]

Nonsense.

There is a business that by its nature is open to the public and one where you are offering for my individual specialized services. So if I go into a bakery in a KKK outfit, you don't have the right to not sell me the cookies on display. However you should have the right to refuse if I want to contract with you to make me a special cake for a KKK rally.

I hate to break it to you, but the KKK cannot be refused a parade permit by a city. The only restriction on their right to burn a cross is they must it out of sight of somene who would feel threatened by it.

Surely you don't really mean to equate a city permit with a private contract.

I'm not the one who made the analogy. But public policy applies to private businesses who do work for the public.

 

[Katzndogz]

I think it would be difficult to prove that a baker was not open to the public for wedding cakes. I doubt most do the decorating themselves, but have people hired who do the job. You just don't hire people to do favors for friends.

It's actually very easy. Especially if you have to hire a cake decorator and don't actually do the decorating yourself. Now the customer is in the position of not only forcing the baker to bake the cake, but hire a decorator too. You might THINK that it would be hard for a baker wasn't open to the public for wedding cakes but all they have to do is say "we don't do wedding cakes".

Eventually there will be a two-tier wedding cake industry. Probably many other kinds of business enterprises also. Those that are open to the public, and those that are not.

Have it your way. But years ago, before I went to school, I learned at the local community college in their community education classes how to decorate cakes. I sold cakes for sevaral years. They brought in a lot of money to this stay at home mom. Then for a while I helped out a local caterer. The only way she could stay in business was her wedding business. I'm not sure I see a baker being able to give up a lucrative part of the business. Here we do have bakers who do ONLY cupcakes, but I don't think they make exceptions and do wedding cakes for friends 'Building' a wedding cake is quite a different process than decorating a cupcake or baking a cookie. A wedding cake takes dowels through each layer t support the next. The stuff like colums used on them is quite expensive to buy. I always made the person pay for the stuff on the cake and then refunded the money when they returned the stuff as no on really wanted to buy it because they had no use for it.

A caterer is not a bakery open on the street. They have entirely different business models.

 

[Katzndogz]

I hate to break it to you, but the KKK cannot be refused a parade permit by a city. The only restriction on their right to burn a cross is they must it out of sight of somene who would feel threatened by it.

Surely you don't really mean to equate a city permit with a private contract.

I'm not the one who made the analogy. But public policy applies to private businesses who do work for the public.

Then they just have to stop doing that work for the public. How hard can this be to understand? My mechanic stopped doing business with the public and makes a very good living still fixing cars. Just not for black people. The photographer friend has suffered no loss of business because he stopped doing wedding photography. He still does as much wedding photography as he ever did. He just no longer has to perform services for same sex couples because wedding photography is not a service he offers to the general public. My case went to court and I did not have to paint the wedding portrait of a same sex couple because this was not a service I offered to the public.

This is a growing practice and it should be. People will always find a way out of oppression.

 

[Connery]

A wedding is such a happy event. Why create such negativity over someone who will never materially matter in these people's lives. Much ado about nothing.

Baker appears to be a private concern who should be able to choose what products he wishes sell.

 

[Sunshine]

It's actually very easy. Especially if you have to hire a cake decorator and don't actually do the decorating yourself. Now the customer is in the position of not only forcing the baker to bake the cake, but hire a decorator too. You might THINK that it would be hard for a baker wasn't open to the public for wedding cakes but all they have to do is say "we don't do wedding cakes".

Eventually there will be a two-tier wedding cake industry. Probably many other kinds of business enterprises also. Those that are open to the public, and those that are not.

Have it your way. But years ago, before I went to school, I learned at the local community college in their community education classes how to decorate cakes. I sold cakes for sevaral years. They brought in a lot of money to this stay at home mom. Then for a while I helped out a local caterer. The only way she could stay in business was her wedding business. I'm not sure I see a baker being able to give up a lucrative part of the business. Here we do have bakers who do ONLY cupcakes, but I don't think they make exceptions and do wedding cakes for friends 'Building' a wedding cake is quite a different process than decorating a cupcake or baking a cookie. A wedding cake takes dowels through each layer t support the next. The stuff like colums used on them is quite expensive to buy. I always made the person pay for the stuff on the cake and then refunded the money when they returned the stuff as no on really wanted to buy it because they had no use for it.

A caterer is not a bakery open on the street. They have entirely different business models.

Surely you don't really mean to equate a city permit with a private contract.

I'm not the one who made the analogy. But public policy applies to private businesses who do work for the public.

Then they just have to stop doing that work for the public. How hard can this be to understand? My mechanic stopped doing business with the public and makes a very good living still fixing cars. Just not for black people. The photographer friend has suffered no loss of business because he stopped doing wedding photography. He still does as much wedding photography as he ever did. He just no longer has to perform services for same sex couples because wedding photography is not a service he offers to the general public. My case went to court and I did not have to paint the wedding portrait of a same sex couple because this was not a service I offered to the public.

This is a growing practice and it should be. People will always find a way out of oppression.

You aren't really getting the point here.

 

[novasteve]

A wedding is such a happy event. Why create such negativity over someone who will never materially matter in these people's lives. Much ado about nothing.

Baker appears to be a private concern who should be able to choose what products he wishes sell.

Because it's about being loud, in your face obnoxious and demanding. LOOK AT ME!!!!

 

[Connery]

A wedding is such a happy event. Why create such negativity over someone who will never materially matter in these people's lives. Much ado about nothing.

Baker appears to be a private concern who should be able to choose what products he wishes sell.

Because it's about being loud, in your face obnoxious and demanding. LOOK AT ME!!!!

I agree, I get the impression this wedding ceremony is just another attention getting event in a long list of oxygen sucking antics.

 

[Katzndogz]

A wedding is such a happy event. Why create such negativity over someone who will never materially matter in these people's lives. Much ado about nothing.

Baker appears to be a private concern who should be able to choose what products he wishes sell.

Because it's about being loud, in your face obnoxious and demanding. LOOK AT ME!!!!

It's about demanding something you are not entitled to get from someone who is not obligated to give it to you.

Try being a straight couple demanding a room from a gay resort in Palm Springs. It's not going to happen. These resorts are very open about who they will and will not allow as guests. That kind of discrimination is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Katzndogz]

A wedding is such a happy event. Why create such negativity over someone who will never materially matter in these people's lives. Much ado about nothing.

Baker appears to be a private concern who should be able to choose what products he wishes sell.

Because it's about being loud, in your face obnoxious and demanding. LOOK AT ME!!!!

I agree, I get the impression this wedding ceremony is just another attention getting event in a long list of oxygen sucking antics.

It's not. But the tantrum over the wedding cake IS.

 

[AmyNation]

Similar vein, there was a show on the food network, baker king or something... And a woman came in and wanted to commission a cake for her bachelorette party, and she wanted it to be a giant penis. The baker told her, he doesn't make graphic cakes. He should have that right, just like the baker in this story.

Not the same, they baker refused because of the type or content, not due to discrimination. He doesn't provide the type of cake request, he doesn't sell it to one group and not another.

Its the same with this baker. If didnt refused to sell a birthday cake because the customer was gay, he stated he doesn't make gay wedding cakes. The baker in my story makes bachelorette cakes, however he doesn't make naked cakes.

 

[Sunshine]

Damn. I've developed a craving for wedding cake. But all I have in the freezer is key lime pie.