Britain.."the end of the National Health Service as we know it"

[alexa]

Britain plans major health care reform - Washington Times

It is not true that it is all of Britain. Scotland is keeping her NHS. I am not sure whether these changes are also happening in Wales and Northern Ireland but definitely it is something which will effect the people of England.

It's looking like more and more of Britain is falling to these reforms though. The trend is increasing, not decreasing.

It isn't happening in Scotland. We decide what we put our money into for health and it has been decided it will remain as it is. In Scotland no one pays for prescription charges either though they do in England.

I am not sure what the situation is as regards autonomy in Wales and NI, how far they have to follow England but we make own choices regarding this.

Edit: I think the difference comes from the different nature of the countries. In Scotland there is more a feeling of having a responsibility not just for the individual but also for the common good. For that reason having a Universal Health service is seen as important - similarly we have publicly funded higher education for all and grants for living expenses for poorer students.

 

[Ropey]

It is not true that it is all of Britain. Scotland is keeping her NHS. I am not sure whether these changes are also happening in Wales and Northern Ireland but definitely it is something which will effect the people of England.

It's looking like more and more of Britain is falling to these reforms though. The trend is increasing, not decreasing.

It isn't happening in Scotland. We decide what we put our money into for health and it has been decided it will remain as it is. In Scotland no one pays for prescription charges either though they do in England.

I am not sure what the situation is as regards autonomy in Wales and NI, how far they have to follow England but we make own choices regarding this.

Edit: I think the difference comes from the different nature of the countries. In Scotland there is more a feeling of having a responsibility not just for the individual but also for the common good. For that reason having a Universal Health service is seen as important - similarly we have publicly funded higher education for all and grants for living expenses for poorer students.

Other far larger countries show the effects sooner. It may take Scotland longer but the European trend is clear

 

[The Gadfly]

What we are witnessing, is the beginning of the end of the Great Socialist Experiment in Europe. Socialism has promised more and more until its promises have become unsupportable. Now,its death throes commence; predictably these will leave a population conditioned to government dependency disillusioned and eventually destitute. There is a cautionary tale here, for those who would lead America downed the same road of Socialism, which continues to prove itself a failed ideology that leads only to dependency, disorder, and destruction. One might wish for the total collapse of the intellectually, morally and politically bankrupt international Left, and all the misery it has inevitably left in its sorry wake, but then, no truly pernicious ideology ever really dies; there is always some motley band of intellectual fools somewhere who believe they can make whipped cream out of horseshit, despite ample evidence to the contrary.

 

[PeteEU]

Basically, yea. What started off as a well meant idea has grown into a monstrosity that is a massive financial drain on the country. It is rife with theft, mismanagement, bureaucracy and general incompetence.

You sure you not talking about the US military?

I am not saying that the NHS could not be improved, but it is de-facto privatised as it is with these silly Margaret Thatcher trust hospitals who pretty much all have failed in one way or another. But what Cameron is trying to do, is to continue down the Thatcher line and in the end make the NHS more American, which would be a disaster on an epic scale. Private healthcare only is wrong, immoral and far far more expensive...

Now SPAIN may need a bailout: Credit rating could be downgraded again

Britain came a step closer to helping bail out Spain today after a key agency warned it may downgrade the financially-struggling country's credit rating.

Mounting debt, financing needs and a lack of faith in the Spanish government's ability to tackle the issues prompted Moody's Investors Service to place the country's Aa1 rating - only just downgraded from AAA in September - on review.

The euro fell subsequently fell against most major currencies amid fears that Spain will be forced to follow in the footsteps of Greece and Ireland and accept a multi-billion pound bailout from the European Union and International Monetary Fund.
But despite problems in the property and banking sectors, the Spanish government has denied it will need any financial assistance.

Economists, most recently including deputy governor at the Bank of England Charles Bean, have raised concerns over the threats sovereign-debt woes in Europe pose to the UK economy.

A weakened Eurozone could hit the UK's export trade - seen as key to a healthy economic recovery.

The threat of the ratings downgrade for Spain sent blue-chip banks lower today and dragged the FTSE 100 Index back from yesterday's two-and-a-half-year high.

More...Debt crisis threatens Spain and Belgium

Barclays was the worst hit, down 3 per cent, as investors fretted over its exposure to Spain's economy following a Moody's report warning it had put the country's rating under review.
The wider Footsie also fell into the red - down 24.1 points to 5867.2 - in a weaker performance following gains on Tuesday that sent the top tier to its highest position since June 2008.
Sentiment was not helped by less cheery economic news as figures revealed unemployment climbed to 2.5 million in the quarter to October.

Read more: Now SPAIN may need a bailout: Credit rating could be downgraded again | Mail Online

First of all I aint Spanish, I only live here.

Secondly.. the Mail? HAHAH, quoting from a newspaper that use to support Hitler is a bit much.

And why change the subject?

 

[PeteEU]

Social Europe is showing the Pre WW1 and Pre WWII social deterioration, inability to feed the people will come, new alliances are being made world wide.

I certainly hope that if there has to be a war, that it be confined to the ME. It's looking a bit world wide at the moment.

it 's not like spain would help out in anyway.

Europe has proven to fall fast and easy. Twice. Both times the West had to bail them out.

Err.. the "West" is 95% European countries...

 

[PeteEU]

What we are witnessing, is the beginning of the end of the Great Socialist Experiment in Europe. Socialism has promised more and more until its promises have become unsupportable. Now,its death throes commence; predictably these will leave a population conditioned to government dependency disillusioned and eventually destitute. There is a cautionary tale here, for those who would lead America downed the same road of Socialism, which continues to prove itself a failed ideology that leads only to dependency, disorder, and destruction. One might wish for the total collapse of the intellectually, morally and politically bankrupt international Left, and all the misery it has inevitably left in its sorry wake, but then, no truly pernicious ideology ever really dies; there is always some motley band of intellectual fools somewhere who believe they can make whipped cream out of horseshit, despite ample evidence to the contrary.

Brainwash alert.... you ever read a book not written by the far right in the US?

If anything the changes in the world is the end of conservative politics. Why? Because they were in charge of the whole freaking mess we are in now. It was conservative politics that drove us over the edge, both in the US and in Europe. 90% of the countries in Europe have been ruled by right wing parties for the last decade... using American economic policies as their base.

Like it or not, it is the failure of Reaganomics that is happening now and we all have to change our ways. It took 30+ years, but it eventually doomed us all as it was predicted back in the day.

Sadly, both the US right wing and even the British still think the solution to our problems is more Reaganomics/Thatchernomics, and are blinded by partisan ideology to see that they were the ones that caused the problems in the first place.

 

[Colin]

What we are witnessing, is the beginning of the end of the Great Socialist Experiment in Europe. Socialism has promised more and more until its promises have become unsupportable. Now,its death throes commence; predictably these will leave a population conditioned to government dependency disillusioned and eventually destitute. There is a cautionary tale here, for those who would lead America downed the same road of Socialism, which continues to prove itself a failed ideology that leads only to dependency, disorder, and destruction. One might wish for the total collapse of the intellectually, morally and politically bankrupt international Left, and all the misery it has inevitably left in its sorry wake, but then, no truly pernicious ideology ever really dies; there is always some motley band of intellectual fools somewhere who believe they can make whipped cream out of horseshit, despite ample evidence to the contrary.

Brainwash alert.... you ever read a book not written by the far right in the US?

If anything the changes in the world is the end of conservative politics. Why? Because they were in charge of the whole freaking mess we are in now. It was conservative politics that drove us over the edge, both in the US and in Europe. 90% of the countries in Europe have been ruled by right wing parties for the last decade... using American economic policies as their base.

Like it or not, it is the failure of Reaganomics that is happening now and we all have to change our ways. It took 30+ years, but it eventually doomed us all as it was predicted back in the day.

Sadly, both the US right wing and even the British still think the solution to our problems is more Reaganomics/Thatchernomics, and are blinded by partisan ideology to see that they were the ones that caused the problems in the first place.

Seems you know little about British politics! Best to STFU! The Labour party is responsible for the UK's economic problem with their policy of spend, spend, spend. The Conservatives left Labour with a very healthy economy, but it didn't take Blair and co long to tank it!

Stick to what you know and not what you think you know!

 

[editec]

Oh yeah there just ins't enough HC for the people...the market has spoken.

Meanwhile there's plenty of money for other things like defending UK's ownership of this trememdously valuable island that is a mere hop skip and jump from Faire Olde England

Than goodness!

 

[alexa]

It's looking like more and more of Britain is falling to these reforms though. The trend is increasing, not decreasing.

It isn't happening in Scotland. We decide what we put our money into for health and it has been decided it will remain as it is. In Scotland no one pays for prescription charges either though they do in England.

I am not sure what the situation is as regards autonomy in Wales and NI, how far they have to follow England but we make own choices regarding this.

Edit: I think the difference comes from the different nature of the countries. In Scotland there is more a feeling of having a responsibility not just for the individual but also for the common good. For that reason having a Universal Health service is seen as important - similarly we have publicly funded higher education for all and grants for living expenses for poorer students.

Other far larger countries show the effects sooner. It may take Scotland longer but the European trend is clear

I don't think it has anything to do with the size of the country or indeed her wealth.

The UK as a whole, though this is much more in the SE than anywhere else, has moved further and further to the right since the 80's. Scotland however has not. This was evident when she had no political voice during the 80's and 90's and resulted in the Scottish people overwhelmingly voting for devolution. The voting system was devised in such a way that it was thought impossible that any one party could have an overall majority, though it was imagined power would always rest with Labour, Scotland being the birthplace of the movement and it's heartland.....but no, something else happened. It was noticed that politicians although sitting in a Scottish parliament were nonetheless giving their first allegiance not to Scotland, but to their Party in Westminster. And what happened next sealed things. Labour became New Labour, lost it's roots and belonging and failed it's voters. Labour under Tony Blair continued what Thatcher had started. Now the Tory party had lost all it's seats in Scotland, or maybe kept one, some of the time. Labour was also losing support - so who did people give their old Labour and Tory votes to, well the SNP, the one party which could sit in a Scottish Parliament with allegiance to no one but the Scottish people. First it got a minority government which was the norm and then last year, it did the thought impossible, it got an overall majority. Scotland will now have a referendum on Independence in 2014 due to the big divide politically between Scotland and Westminster.

The reason why Scotland and England think differently on things like health and education is because we have different histories and are different politically.

If Scotland goes for Independence I have seen a draft proposal for her written constitution and both free publicly funded higher tuition and a Universal Health scheme are written as rights within the Constitution. By putting them in the constitution Scotland is showing her ethos, her norms, which are not just for individual rights but also for the common good. It is stating what is important to Scotland and that is not just individual rights but the common good, historically and now. I think the draft constitution based itself somewhat on that of Scandinavian countries.

You will find small countries like Norway offer this sort of thing to her citizens. Norway I understand not only offers universal health care and public funded higher education but also takes a responsibility towards making sure her citizens are housed, I think.

 

[PeteEU]

What we are witnessing, is the beginning of the end of the Great Socialist Experiment in Europe. Socialism has promised more and more until its promises have become unsupportable. Now,its death throes commence; predictably these will leave a population conditioned to government dependency disillusioned and eventually destitute. There is a cautionary tale here, for those who would lead America downed the same road of Socialism, which continues to prove itself a failed ideology that leads only to dependency, disorder, and destruction. One might wish for the total collapse of the intellectually, morally and politically bankrupt international Left, and all the misery it has inevitably left in its sorry wake, but then, no truly pernicious ideology ever really dies; there is always some motley band of intellectual fools somewhere who believe they can make whipped cream out of horseshit, despite ample evidence to the contrary.

Brainwash alert.... you ever read a book not written by the far right in the US?

If anything the changes in the world is the end of conservative politics. Why? Because they were in charge of the whole freaking mess we are in now. It was conservative politics that drove us over the edge, both in the US and in Europe. 90% of the countries in Europe have been ruled by right wing parties for the last decade... using American economic policies as their base.

Like it or not, it is the failure of Reaganomics that is happening now and we all have to change our ways. It took 30+ years, but it eventually doomed us all as it was predicted back in the day.

Sadly, both the US right wing and even the British still think the solution to our problems is more Reaganomics/Thatchernomics, and are blinded by partisan ideology to see that they were the ones that caused the problems in the first place.

Seems you know little about British politics! Best to STFU! The Labour party is responsible for the UK's economic problem with their policy of spend, spend, spend. The Conservatives left Labour with a very healthy economy, but it didn't take Blair and co long to tank it!

Stick to what you know and not what you think you know!

The problems of the UK economy are not the sole fault of the labour government, but in large part the fault of the world wide economic collapse thanks to the US. Had it not been needed to bail out the UK banks, then the UK economy would have been much healthier. Had it not been for the Irish problem, then the threat over the UK would not be as great as it is. And the Irish problem.. cold hard Reganomics at work.. unbridled lending and spending without consequences until it is too late.

But on the subject of New Labour.. it had far more in common with the right on economics and hence Reganomics and US economic theory, than anything else. New Labour did the usual deregulation and lazzie-faire approach of US economic theory brought on by Reaganomics. That in the end meant that they had to nationalize a host of banks when they realized that those banks had grown far larger than the economy could handle, and even worse, dipped their noses in the toxic crap hole of the US sub-prime market.

And it does not change the fact that New Labour's power in the UK was one of the few places in Europe where the right wing did not have power when the basis for the crisis in many countries was laid.

Take Spain.. it was the right wing who was in power when the building boom started, driven on by right wing leaning building companies who bought and traded politicians at all levels to gain favours and permits (mostly illegal) so that they could build. When the left finally took over they were too slow to deal with the problem and were sitting in the crapper when the US sub-prime mortgage driven world credit crisis drove the overheated and way too large building sector into the ground in Spain.

In France, the right has been in power for almost 20 years.

In Germany the right has been in power for 10 years

In Greece, it was the right wing who lied and used US banks/financial institutions to hide their debt...

In Italy, Berloscoloony had been in power for a very long time as well.

The list goes on and on. The right wing took over after the fall of the Soviet Union in most countries and have kept it for now.. that will change I suspect this election season.. for better or for worse.. we shall see.

But lets look at the UK economy again.

Unemployment is up. Exports are down, and economic growth (or lack of it) struggles to beat that of Spain ... now by economics 101, if you devalue your currency, which is what Cameron has done (as well as Labour did), then unemployment should fall because labour is cheaper, and your exports should go up and that should create growth. But that aint happening. He of course is blaming Europe for his problems.. but any idiot would know that the UK is know for crap quality in Europe so exporting to Europe or anywhere else is ...Those UK companies that do export, rarely use "Made in the UK" as a marketing thing...

Instead the deficit is almost as large as it was when Cameron took over, and he is focusing on strange cuts (Aircraft Carriers with no planes for example) and yet leaving a billion dollar nuclear weapon on the books... and having to give up cuts and reforms because they are not economically viable and more politically motivated. And all in the while he is protecting his banker friends.....

Is reforming the NHS against the doctors and patients wishes, not to mention breaking one of his promises in his election campaign... really the right way to get the UK economy running again?

All his cutting and mistakes are causing a depression in the population and when that happens, as it has shown in Europe and through out history... people stop to spend and start to save... which is disastrous to an economy trying to grow its way out of a massive hole.

 

[Jroc]

What we are witnessing, is the beginning of the end of the Great Socialist Experiment in Europe. Socialism has promised more and more until its promises have become unsupportable. Now,its death throes commence; predictably these will leave a population conditioned to government dependency disillusioned and eventually destitute. There is a cautionary tale here, for those who would lead America downed the same road of Socialism, which continues to prove itself a failed ideology that leads only to dependency, disorder, and destruction. One might wish for the total collapse of the intellectually, morally and politically bankrupt international Left, and all the misery it has inevitably left in its sorry wake, but then, no truly pernicious ideology ever really dies; there is always some motley band of intellectual fools somewhere who believe they can make whipped cream out of horseshit, despite ample evidence to the contrary.

Brainwash alert.... you ever read a book not written by the far right in the US?

If anything the changes in the world is the end of conservative politics. Why? Because they were in charge of the whole freaking mess we are in now. It was conservative politics that drove us over the edge, both in the US and in Europe. 90% of the countries in Europe have been ruled by right wing parties for the last decade... using American economic policies as their base.

Like it or not, it is the failure of Reaganomics that is happening now and we all have to change our ways. It took 30+ years, but it eventually doomed us all as it was predicted back in the day.

Sadly, both the US right wing and even the British still think the solution to our problems is more Reaganomics/Thatchernomics, and are blinded by partisan ideology to see that they were the ones that caused the problems in the first place.

Europe is "right wing" Wow what world does this guy live in? Europes problems are too big a welfare state and too much taxes. Too much spending is the problem in Europe. Europe's "right wing policiies" this guy is delousional

 

[alexa]

What we are witnessing, is the beginning of the end of the Great Socialist Experiment in Europe. Socialism has promised more and more until its promises have become unsupportable. Now,its death throes commence; predictably these will leave a population conditioned to government dependency disillusioned and eventually destitute. There is a cautionary tale here, for those who would lead America downed the same road of Socialism, which continues to prove itself a failed ideology that leads only to dependency, disorder, and destruction. One might wish for the total collapse of the intellectually, morally and politically bankrupt international Left, and all the misery it has inevitably left in its sorry wake, but then, no truly pernicious ideology ever really dies; there is always some motley band of intellectual fools somewhere who believe they can make whipped cream out of horseshit, despite ample evidence to the contrary.

Brainwash alert.... you ever read a book not written by the far right in the US?

If anything the changes in the world is the end of conservative politics. Why? Because they were in charge of the whole freaking mess we are in now. It was conservative politics that drove us over the edge, both in the US and in Europe. 90% of the countries in Europe have been ruled by right wing parties for the last decade... using American economic policies as their base.

Like it or not, it is the failure of Reaganomics that is happening now and we all have to change our ways. It took 30+ years, but it eventually doomed us all as it was predicted back in the day.

Sadly, both the US right wing and even the British still think the solution to our problems is more Reaganomics/Thatchernomics, and are blinded by partisan ideology to see that they were the ones that caused the problems in the first place.

Europe is "right wing" Wow what world does this guy live in? Europes problems are too big a welfare state and too much taxes. Too much spending is the problem in Europe. Europe's "right wing policiies" this guy is delousional

It is possible to be ruled by right wing governments while still having things like social security and a health service.

It is true that in the 70's for instance the UK was much more left wing than the US. How much that is still true would really need a study. Thatcher for instance took on neo liberal ideas and the UK has been moving in that direction ever since. Now with the financial collapse coming from the US, Westminster is moving without question in a right wing direction. The latest development is forcing the disabled to work unpaid for an indefinite time or lose their benefit entitlement

Disabled people face unlimited unpaid work or cuts in benefit - the documents | Politics | guardian.co.uk

or a somewhat more forthright account Terminally ill face being forced to do work experience or lose their benefits - Mirror Online

In many ways the UK has been similar to yourselves in changes such as inequality. It is reckoned inequality in the UK is now about as bad as in Victorian times. We also have the situation that someone working in our financial sector earns about 150 times more than a middle income person whereas in the beginning of the '80's I think it was only about 9 times more.

The US has certainly moved more to the right but that does not mean Europe has not been following. The question is how far will it go?

The terms left wing and right wing are based on the seating arrangements in the French National Assembly, which directly preceded the French Revolution. The basic beliefs of each side are still equivalent to those of the parties seated there.

Left wing generally refers to more "liberal" or "progressive" views (as in wanting to change things in ways that have not been tried before), based on the belief that people are basically good and the government has a responsibility to care for all of its citizens to some degree. Taken to its logical conclusion, left wing politics become socialism.

Right wing usually refers to more "conservative" or "regressive" views (as in wanting things to stay the same or return to how they used to be). It is characterized by a belief in the natural selfish nature of humans and the view that achievement is equivalent to worth. The government should stay out of people's affairs and not force the more productive citizens to subsidize the less productive citizens. Taken to its logical conclusion, right wing politics becomes fascism.

What Is Left Or Right Wing

 

[Big Black Dog]

Do you have to pass the bill before you can know what's in it?

 

[daveman]

It's trying to save the monolith known as the NHS. But fearmongering idiots on the left - through their mouthpiece media (the Guardian) - don't like the thought of someone actually fixing the damned thing.

Sounds just like the left here any time anyone brings up fixing Social Security, Medicare, public education, (insert overly expensive and inefficient government bureaucracy here)

Basically, yea. What started off as a well meant idea has grown into a monstrosity that is a massive financial drain on the country. It is rife with theft, mismanagement, bureaucracy and general incompetence.

No wonder the American Left thinks so highly of it.

 

[daveman]

Europe is "right wing" Wow what world does this guy live in? Europes problems are too big a welfare state and too much taxes. Too much spending is the problem in Europe. Europe's "right wing policiies" this guy is delousional

Politics is relative. To a Marxist, a socialist is a fundy rethug.

Just sayin'.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Would be useful to know what the bill is actually trying to accomplish rather than bloviations from an opposition politician.

Horror of horrors, they want to increase the supply of medical care by privatizing some parts of the NHS.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Would be useful to know what the bill is actually trying to accomplish rather than bloviations from an opposition politician.

It's trying to save the monolith known as the NHS. But fearmongering idiots on the left - through their mouthpiece media (the Guardian) - don't like the thought of someone actually fixing the damned thing.

There is a difference in fixing the NHS and gutting it for private companies to earn massive profit on the backs of the sick people.

When even the freaking doctors are against much of these so called reforms, then you know that it stinks.

Doctors in England take lunch breaks in the middle of an operation. Forgive me if I don't care about their feelings about ending rules that let them get away with things like that.

 

[Ropey]

It's trying to save the monolith known as the NHS. But fearmongering idiots on the left - through their mouthpiece media (the Guardian) - don't like the thought of someone actually fixing the damned thing.

There is a difference in fixing the NHS and gutting it for private companies to earn massive profit on the backs of the sick people.

When even the freaking doctors are against much of these so called reforms, then you know that it stinks.

Doctors in England take lunch breaks in the middle of an operation. Forgive me if I don't care about their feelings about ending rules that let them get away with things like that.

Come on. In the middle of operations Quantum? Really?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

There is a difference in fixing the NHS and gutting it for private companies to earn massive profit on the backs of the sick people.

When even the freaking doctors are against much of these so called reforms, then you know that it stinks.

Doctors in England take lunch breaks in the middle of an operation. Forgive me if I don't care about their feelings about ending rules that let them get away with things like that.

Come on. In the middle of operations Quantum? Really?

Is there any reason they shouldn't? They don't get overtime, and are paid by the hour. Most people working like that insist on their lunch breaks, or did you think Tom Clancy just threw that scene because he is a right wing hack?

 

[Ropey]

Doctors in England take lunch breaks in the middle of an operation. Forgive me if I don't care about their feelings about ending rules that let them get away with things like that.

Come on. In the middle of operations Quantum? Really?

Is there any reason they shouldn't? They don't get overtime, and are paid by the hour. Most people working like that insist on their lunch breaks, or did you think Tom Clancy just threw that scene because he is a right wing hack?

So, they haven't then?