California Leg. OKs funding for high-speed rail line

[whitehall]

The environmental impact? No problemo, Gerry Brown's people will "plant trees"/

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Then you admit you were wrong again.

airlines are subsidized

Wrong about what?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/scien...break-ground-in-california-5.html#post7878448

From your links.

Essential Air Service (EAS) is a U.S. government program enacted to guarantee that small communities in the United States, which, prior to deregulation, were served by certificated airlines, maintained commercial service. Its aim is to maintain a minimal level of scheduled air service to these communities that otherwise would not be profitable. This came in response to the Airline Deregulation Act, passed in 1978, which gave U.S. airlines almost total freedom to determine which markets to serve domestically and what fares to charge for that service.[1] The program is codified at 49 U.S.C. §§ 41731–41748.

Essential Air Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is a subsidy for airports, not airlines.

This link explains how it works.

The controversial subsidy program is called Essential Air Services. It was enacted by Congress in 1978 as a “temporary” measure to help rural communities that were facing the loss of air travel when small airports were to be closed due to airline deregulation.
Instead, Congress has temporarily extended the program 21 times over the last 33 years. The 22nd extension, lasting to January, was passed last week by the Senate.
Most importantly, the EAS program has mushroomed into a airline routing program based on political favors. And the subsidy doesn’t go to the traveling public; it goes to the air carriers. The $3,700 per passenger subsidy, for example, has been championed by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV), who fought and won the earmark for keeping open air service for Ely, Nevada (population: 4,000).

PJ Media » How We Pay $3,700 Per Passenger to Subsidize Airline Tickets

Again, it is about airports, and political favors, not airlines.

I repeat, sure they do.

 

[asterism]

I guess Europe, China, and Japan just don't understand.

Europe, China and Japan have much denser populations and they still don't run without continuous government subsidies.

High-speed rail backers, including the White House, look overseas for success stories. But Amtrak released a study in April to demonstrate that Europe's system is heavily subsidized. Germany's high-speed rail network, the most expensive in Europe, required average annual subsidies of $11.6 billion during the 10-year span that ended in 2006, according to the Amtrak study.

Japan's system is often cited as the most financially successful high-speed rail in the world, according to Ron Utt, but "that's because in the 1980s they wrote down all the debt to zero," he noted. "We're talking about several hundred billion dollars in debt."

Sam Staley said it's possible for a well-designed high-speed rail to cover its operating costs, but even the best-run rail system won't be able to cover the capital costs stemming from its development.

Visionaries see U.S. high speed rail; critics see subsidies - Jul. 2, 2009

 

[asterism]

The distance between Los Angeles and San Francisco is 558.68km. If we could build a train that could travel 250km/hour, it would be worth it. It would allow weekly commuters to hop on a train on Friday at 5pm and be home by 8pm. There are lots of professionals who work in specialized fields. They have to expand their potential job market as much as they can. I personally would love to use such a system. If I am the only potential customer then it is not viable. However if there are significant number of potential customers then it is viable.

That assumes downtown LA to downtown SF.

Now show me a plan where this is actually going to be built, and how many people live in either?

The long part is getting downtown. How long does it take to get from SFO to Mountain View on a Friday evening? How long does it take to get from LAX to Woodland Hills on a Friday evening?

 

[asterism]

The distance between Los Angeles and San Francisco is 558.68km. If we could build a train that could travel 250km/hour, it would be worth it. It would allow weekly commuters to hop on a train on Friday at 5pm and be home by 8pm. There are lots of professionals who work in specialized fields. They have to expand their potential job market as much as they can. I personally would love to use such a system. If I am the only potential customer then it is not viable. However if there are significant number of potential customers then it is viable.

It has 11 stops between LA and San Francisco, 3 of them before it even gets out of LA county. In order to average 250 km/hr it would have to top out at over 650 km/hr, which would make it the fastest train in the world.

There should be an express train between Los Angeles and San Francisco.

Here's a novel idea, if you work in LA why don't you move there?

 

[asterism]

Reality check here. We don't have the money!

I think it will be a profitable venture if we can come up with a system with right speed and cost. You will be surprised how many specialized professionals need this service.

Find one system that runs at a profit.

 

[asterism]

I guess Europe, China, and Japan just don't understand.

In all of those places TWO lines are not running in the red. TWO! You should figure out how much it will cost the people of CA. Then figure out the airline alternative, and see how many years of operation it would take to make it pay.

It would be much cheaper to build a restricted lane down the center of I-4 and hire a stretch limousine for each commuter than it would be to build and operate a SunRail line between Tampa and Orlando. Faster too!

So why don't we just do that?

 

[asterism]

Amtrak sets new ridership record ? Infrastructure in budget deal? ? Trucker protest a bust - POLITICO Morning Transportation - POLITICO.com

NEW AMTRAK RIDERSHIP RECORD: The passenger railroad announces a new all-time ridership high today, the tenth record in 11 years. Today’s figure will top the 31.2 million passengers that rode Amtrak in the last fiscal year. Amtrak President and CEO Joe Boardman goes on C-SPAN’s “Washington Journal” at 9:15 a.m. to talk about it — stay tuned to Amtrak - About Amtrak - News Releases for the official figures that are out this morning.
>
Imagine how many more would use high speed rail.

Did you actually read the release? That wasn't 31.2 million different people, that was 31.2 million tickets sold in the entire country. Doesn't sound quite as impressive, does it?

Then you admit you were wrong again.

airlines are subsidized

Show me where the EAS is funded from general revenue and not fees charged to passengers.

That's the problem with these programs - the government takes over jurisdiction, charges fees for it, and manages it inefficiently. Then progressives claim that because the government spends the money it collected from the users on the program, it's a subsidy.

 

[flacaltenn]

The distance between Los Angeles and San Francisco is 558.68km. If we could build a train that could travel 250km/hour, it would be worth it. It would allow weekly commuters to hop on a train on Friday at 5pm and be home by 8pm. There are lots of professionals who work in specialized fields. They have to expand their potential job market as much as they can. I personally would love to use such a system. If I am the only potential customer then it is not viable. However if there are significant number of potential customers then it is viable.

That assumes downtown LA to downtown SF.

Now show me a plan where this is actually going to be built, and how many people live in either?

The long part is getting downtown. How long does it take to get from SFO to Mountain View on a Friday evening? How long does it take to get from LAX to Woodland Hills on a Friday evening?

RIght NOW --- it ain't even close to being Mountain View to Woodland Hills. The only thing Calis are gonna get (if they ever get it) is Bakersfield to Livermore.

That --- is a complete boondoogle.. As useful as putting escalators in Yosemite.

You're talking an 1 to 2 hours or more to get to the (high speed) station from most metro areas..

 

[asterism]

The distance between Los Angeles and San Francisco is 558.68km. If we could build a train that could travel 250km/hour, it would be worth it. It would allow weekly commuters to hop on a train on Friday at 5pm and be home by 8pm. There are lots of professionals who work in specialized fields. They have to expand their potential job market as much as they can. I personally would love to use such a system. If I am the only potential customer then it is not viable. However if there are significant number of potential customers then it is viable.

That assumes downtown LA to downtown SF.

Now show me a plan where this is actually going to be built, and how many people live in either?

The long part is getting downtown. How long does it take to get from SFO to Mountain View on a Friday evening? How long does it take to get from LAX to Woodland Hills on a Friday evening?

RIght NOW --- it ain't even close to being Mountain View to Woodland Hills. The only thing Calis are gonna get (if they ever get it) is Bakersfield to Livermore.

That --- is a complete boondoogle.. As useful as putting escalators in Yosemite.

You're talking an 1 to 2 hours or more to get to the (high speed) station from most metro areas..

Escalators on the top part of Half Dome. Funny!

 

[MeBelle]

There is already a thread on this:

[MENTION=23905]Trajan[/MENTION]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...leg-oks-funding-for-high-speed-rail-line.html

California OKs funding for high-speed rail line - San Jose Mercury News
OP link is 'dead' now. Same story, same reporter, AP.
Start by reading the above thread first. It's an eye opener!

High-speed rail to finally break ground in California | DVICE

<excerpt>
Construction of the rail line is slated to begin by summer's end. Once completed, the long-anticipated [B]high-speed rail line will connect Los Angeles and San Francisco via a 220 mph life-line. Commuters between the two major cities will complete their journey in under three hours,[/B] with stops in Fresno and Merced along the way.

The CHSRA hopes that their project will not only serve both LA and San Francisco, but will benefit the smaller cities along the route, which are likely to become vital, low-cost commuter communities. And if that weren't enough benefit,

It's not all blue skies and leafy greens for the project, however. Only 10 of the estimated $68 billion needed to complete the project have so far been raised. And while California governor Gerry Brown has been drumming up international interest in the project since last year, there's still a lot of financial ground to cover. If all goes well, Americans will be cruising the full length of the high-speed rail corridor by 2029.

Vote on high-speed rail called 'big win' for California
July 7, 2012 | 7:53 am

The bill included $5.9 billion — about $3.2 billion in federal money already committed and $2.6 billion in state bond funds — for the section of track from Madera to Bakersfield.
Vote on high-speed rail called 'big win' for California - latimes.com

If this ever gets completed it will end up costing three times as much before it's said and done and will never see an economic benefit that justifies the cost of building and maintaining it.

CALIFORNIA OKS FUNDING FOR HIGH-SPEED RAIL LINE
By JUDY LIN
— Jul. 6, 2012 9:32 PM EDT

The bill authorizes the state to begin selling $4.5 billion in voter-approved bonds that includes $2.6 billion to build an initial 130-mile stretch of the high-speed rail line in the Central Valley. That will allow the state to collect another $3.2 billion in federal funding that could have been rescinded if lawmakers failed to act Friday.

The first segment of the line will run from Madera to Bakersfield. The final cost of the completed project from Los Angeles to San Francisco would be $68 billion.

I was wondering when Kalifornia was gonna start digging thier next hole.

It has already doubled in price and they haven't even had a groundbreaking. By the way, did the OP mention that a judge ruled that the funding is illegal?

"Voters authorized $9 billion in bonds for the project in 2008, although most of those bonds have not yet been sold"

Long-awaited environmental impact documents were released Tuesday for the Central Valley sections of California’s high-speed rail project, revealing that building tracks for the first section of the proposed project will cost $2.9 billion to $6.8 billion more than originally estimated.
A 2009 business plan developed for the California High-Speed Authority had originally estimated costs at about $7.1 billion for the equivalent stretch of tracks
High-Speed Rail Costs Grow in California | TheBlaze.com

California needs that like a hole in the head.

If this ever gets completed it will end up costing three times as much before it's said and done and will never see an economic benefit that justifies the cost of building and maintaining it.

Link?

1/03/2012
The Los Angeles Times reports:

The Legislature should not authorize the issuance of $2.7 billion in bonds to start building California’s $98.5-billion bullet train project, a state-appointed review panel says in a key report to be released later Tuesday.

California HSR Review Panel Recommends Against $2.7 Billion Bond Issue - Forbes

Dan Walters: Court case may derail California's bullet train
By Dan Walters
[email protected]
Published: Tuesday, Aug. 20, 2013

• The state's exposure would be limited to the $9.95 billion bond issue, about a fourth of the estimated cost.

• There could be no operating subsidies.

• Trains would run between San Francisco and Los Angeles in 160 minutes.

• Financing and environmental studies would have to be completed before a "usable segment" was built.

Even so, and even without a dime being spent against it, the ballot measure was approved very narrowly.

Since then, polls indicate that public sentiment has turned against the project as costs have ballooned, as only a token amount of federal funds has been forthcoming, and as design changes made the 160- minute promise a pipe dream.

However, Schwarzenegger's successor, Jerry Brown, and his High-Speed Rail Authority have pushed ahead, planning to build a 130-mile portion in the San Joaquin Valley that's been dubbed, not inaccurately, as the train to nowhere.

Read more here: Dan Walters: Court case may derail California's bullet train - Dan Walters - The Sacramento Bee

Dan Walters: Court case may derail California's bullet train - Dan Walters - The Sacramento Bee

Airlines are subsidized, too.

Sure they are.

How We Pay $3,700 Per Passenger to Subsidize Airline Tickets

Wrong about what?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/scien...break-ground-in-california-5.html#post7878448

From your links.

Essential Air Service (EAS) is a U.S. government program enacted to guarantee that small communities in the United States, which, prior to deregulation, were served by certificated airlines, maintained commercial service. Its aim is to maintain a minimal level of scheduled air service to these communities that otherwise would not be profitable. This came in response to the Airline Deregulation Act, passed in 1978, which gave U.S. airlines almost total freedom to determine which markets to serve domestically and what fares to charge for that service.[1] The program is codified at 49 U.S.C. §§ 41731–41748.

Essential Air Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is a subsidy for airports, not airlines.

This link explains how it works.

The controversial subsidy program is called Essential Air Services. It was enacted by Congress in 1978 as a “temporary” measure to help rural communities that were facing the loss of air travel when small airports were to be closed due to airline deregulation.
Instead, Congress has temporarily extended the program 21 times over the last 33 years. The 22nd extension, lasting to January, was passed last week by the Senate.
Most importantly, the EAS program has mushroomed into a airline routing program based on political favors. And the subsidy doesn’t go to the traveling public; it goes to the air carriers. The $3,700 per passenger subsidy, for example, has been championed by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV), who fought and won the earmark for keeping open air service for Ely, Nevada (population: 4,000).

PJ Media » How We Pay $3,700 Per Passenger to Subsidize Airline Tickets

Again, it is about airports, and political favors, not airlines.

I repeat, sure they do.

Every day in 22 cities around the country, commuter planes take off with so few passengers that the pilots and crew outnumber the passengers. Each passenger pays a fare that’s less than $100. However, the federal government subsidizes the rest of the cost and pays airlines as much as $3,700 for each person on board.

Deflection works best when the OP loses.



In the meantime Bart is striking, or threatening too.

Goooooooooooo Bullet trains!

Say YES to a bullet train to nowhere.

 

[ScienceRocks]

When can I ride the fast train?

 

[westwall]

When can I ride the fast train?

Go to Japan or France and ride all you like. The train, if it is ever built in CA, will never be fast.

 

[mamooth]

By the time it can go from Los Angeles to San Francisco, the technology will have been replaced by the hyperloop.

You understand hyperloop is an unworkable fantasy, right? It has a few ... issues.

1. Costs underestimated by ... oh, by at least a factor of 10.

2. It's a vomit comet. Will the lateral accelerations and lack of horizon view, everyone will be hurling.

3. Capacity about one-fourth of high speed rail.

4. Doesn't go downtown to downtown, like HSR will do, hence it's not any faster.

 

[flacaltenn]

When can I ride the fast train?

Take the Short Yellow Bus from Livermore to Fresno, Transfer to FART (Fresno Area Rapid Transit) all the way to Madera, Walk thru the nut orchids to the Fast train ticket counter. Wait 14 yrs and get on..

 

[flacaltenn]

By the time it can go from Los Angeles to San Francisco, the technology will have been replaced by the hyperloop.

You understand hyperloop is an unworkable fantasy, right? It has a few ... issues.

1. Costs underestimated by ... oh, by at least a factor of 10.

2. It's a vomit comet. Will the lateral accelerations and lack of horizon view, everyone will be hurling.

3. Capacity about one-fourth of high speed rail.

4. Doesn't go downtown to downtown, like HSR will do, hence it's not any faster.

Capacity diff is yet to be determined. AND --- with the h-loop, you wouldn't have to wait on a 4 or 6 hour scheduled train.. And loop pods wouldn't run empty or overbooked if they are built and run to demand levels.

Hurling could be a huge societal benefit.. Address the obesity epidemic at the time... LUNCHTIME !!!!!

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

I guess Europe, China, and Japan just don't understand.

In all of those places TWO lines are not running in the red. TWO! You should figure out how much it will cost the people of CA. Then figure out the airline alternative, and see how many years of operation it would take to make it pay.

It would be much cheaper to build a restricted lane down the center of I-4 and hire a stretch limousine for each commuter than it would be to build and operate a SunRail line between Tampa and Orlando. Faster too!

So why don't we just do that?

The longer we wait to even start building HSR, the costs will skyrocket before long, because
while we have lost 1251 railroad lines in the last 40 years, there will still be many more lost. The goal of HSR is to build a nationwide system, and it WILL be done eventually. Obama has already got the ball rolling with billions of dollars of incentives to states, and surely many contracts are well into the planning stages. A major cost of building the nationwide system including the one in California includes large amounts of money that will go to buy back property from farmers, ranchers, and homeowners, due to their building and developing over long lost right-of-ways. 1251 lost rail lines means 1251 lost right-of-ways.

Abandoned Rails: Home

Thousands of miles of railroads have been abandoned in the United States, much of it in the last 40 years. All of these abandoned railways have a history and a story.

List of each railroad line lost in last 30 years: Abandoned Rails: The Railroads

Obama unveils high-speed passenger rail plan - CNN.com

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Obama unveiled his administration's blueprint for a new national network of high-speed passenger rail lines Thursday, saying such an investment is necessary to reduce traffic congestion, cut dependence on foreign oil and improve the environment.

The president's plan identifies 10 potential high-speed intercity corridors for federal funding, including California, the Pacific Northwest, the Midwest, the Southeast, the Gulf Coast, Pennsylvania, Florida, New York and New England.

To give examples of just how mind-boggling and costly it will be to restore the right-of-ways for a nationwide system, I've posted some of the maps of the 1251 already lost. If landowners don't get a fair price for their land, they will eventually band together and fight the eminent domain laws in court. Once a large group of landowners organizes, watch out! Click on each link to see the map.

Abandoned Rails: Traces of the Quanah, Acme & Pacific Railway
Abandoned Rails: The Alabama, Tennessee and Northern Railroad
Abandoned Rails: Atlanta to Fort Valley
Abandoned Rails: The Maryland & Pennsylvania Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Framingham and Lowell Railroad
Abandoned Rails: Waveland to Lapel
Abandoned Rails: Elgin, OH to Hammond, IN
Abandoned Rails: Jackson, MI to Franklin, OH
Abandoned Rails: The Conrail System
Abandoned Rails: The Illinois Central Gulf Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Pennsylvania Railroad
Abandoned Rails: Wateree to Kings Creek
Abandoned Rails: The Chicago, Attica and Southern Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Illinois Central Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Louisiana Midland Railway
Abandoned Rails: New Franklin to Machens
Abandoned Rails: The Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railroad
Abandoned Rails: Beaumont to New Albany
Abandoned Rails: The Tecumseh Branch
Abandoned Rails: The Texas & Pacific Railway
Abandoned Rails: The Union Pacific Railroad
Abandoned Rails: Atlanta to Fort Valley
Abandoned Rails: Elgin, OH to Hammond, IN
Abandoned Rails: The Mad River & Lake Erie Railroad
Abandoned Rails: Lake City to Palatka
Abandoned Rails: The Hannibal and Saint Joseph Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Bamberger Electric Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Southern Pacific Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Western Pacific Railroad

 

[flacaltenn]

In all of those places TWO lines are not running in the red. TWO! You should figure out how much it will cost the people of CA. Then figure out the airline alternative, and see how many years of operation it would take to make it pay.

It would be much cheaper to build a restricted lane down the center of I-4 and hire a stretch limousine for each commuter than it would be to build and operate a SunRail line between Tampa and Orlando. Faster too!

So why don't we just do that?

The longer we wait to even start building HSR, the costs will skyrocket before long, because
while we have lost 1251 railroad lines in the last 40 years, there will still be many more lost. The goal of HSR is to build a nationwide system, and it WILL be done eventually. Obama has already got the ball rolling with billions of dollars of incentives to states, and surely many contracts are well into the planning stages. A major cost of building the nationwide system including the one in California includes large amounts of money that will go to buy back property from farmers, ranchers, and homeowners, due to their building and developing over long lost right-of-ways. 1251 lost rail lines means 1251 lost right-of-ways.

Abandoned Rails: Home

Thousands of miles of railroads have been abandoned in the United States, much of it in the last 40 years. All of these abandoned railways have a history and a story.

List of each railroad line lost in last 30 years: Abandoned Rails: The Railroads

Obama unveils high-speed passenger rail plan - CNN.com

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Obama unveiled his administration's blueprint for a new national network of high-speed passenger rail lines Thursday, saying such an investment is necessary to reduce traffic congestion, cut dependence on foreign oil and improve the environment.

The president's plan identifies 10 potential high-speed intercity corridors for federal funding, including California, the Pacific Northwest, the Midwest, the Southeast, the Gulf Coast, Pennsylvania, Florida, New York and New England.

To give examples of just how mind-boggling and costly it will be to restore the right-of-ways for a nationwide system, I've posted some of the maps of the 1251 already lost. If landowners don't get a fair price for their land, they will eventually band together and fight the eminent domain laws in court. Once a large group of landowners organizes, watch out! Click on each link to see the map.

Abandoned Rails: Traces of the Quanah, Acme & Pacific Railway
Abandoned Rails: The Alabama, Tennessee and Northern Railroad
Abandoned Rails: Atlanta to Fort Valley
Abandoned Rails: The Maryland & Pennsylvania Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Framingham and Lowell Railroad
Abandoned Rails: Waveland to Lapel
Abandoned Rails: Elgin, OH to Hammond, IN
Abandoned Rails: Jackson, MI to Franklin, OH
Abandoned Rails: The Conrail System
Abandoned Rails: The Illinois Central Gulf Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Pennsylvania Railroad
Abandoned Rails: Wateree to Kings Creek
Abandoned Rails: The Chicago, Attica and Southern Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Illinois Central Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Louisiana Midland Railway
Abandoned Rails: New Franklin to Machens
Abandoned Rails: The Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railroad
Abandoned Rails: Beaumont to New Albany
Abandoned Rails: The Tecumseh Branch
Abandoned Rails: The Texas & Pacific Railway
Abandoned Rails: The Union Pacific Railroad
Abandoned Rails: Atlanta to Fort Valley
Abandoned Rails: Elgin, OH to Hammond, IN
Abandoned Rails: The Mad River & Lake Erie Railroad
Abandoned Rails: Lake City to Palatka
Abandoned Rails: The Hannibal and Saint Joseph Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Bamberger Electric Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Southern Pacific Railroad
Abandoned Rails: The Western Pacific Railroad

Don't get me wrong.. That's sad.. But ALL OF THOSE don't equal the costs of acquiring Right of Way and land for just TWO HSRail corridors. SF to LA and Tampa to Orlando.

In fact, when FlaCalTenn lived in Cali --- I remember 3 or 4 different $BILL bond issues to acquire R of Way for improving CalTrain.. They CALLED IT HSRail access.

It's all been pissed down into the Aquaduct of California mis-spending...

 

[flacaltenn]

And QuickHit.. Perhaps you're familiar with Dagny Taggart? She had a similiar falling down broken train system problem.. But she finally realized that her disintegrating train system WASN'T the primary cause of national dysfunction..

Should be obvious to Obama as well...

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

There's no money, unless they borrow it (which they will). California is already $132 billion in debt. Flying is faster, safer, and you don't have to spend billions of dollars to build a rail.

Not true. If you want to fly between Los Angeles and San Francisco, by the time you are done with security and driving and parking at an airport, you have lost several hours already. We need a system where we get to a platform in LA, hop in a train and reach SF in couple of hours. It will be much better than the hassle of flying. This way you can commute home every weekend.

Security would still be a problem.