Can Liberals Criticise Obama?

[bigrebnc1775]

Hell criticize obama? Liberals defended like a mother bear protecting her cub, obama's questionable comment about shooting skeet all the time.

And even in this thread where obama has lied once again they are doing the same thing

http://www.usmessageboard.com/6850377-post1.html

Libs are defendng obama lie after lie, one lie after another lie.
Soon that house that lies built will fall

 

[Billo_Really]

He is a dictator wannabe,

How many times did Bush43 declare "executive privilage" as the reason he didn't have to comply with congressional demands for the release of WH documents and emails? Did you call him a "dictator wannabe"?

and the libs are being used. All he has to do is "stroke them" (with unfullfilled promises),

Unfortunately, this is a true statement.

and they will lie, cheat and steal to take away citizens' rights.

You're going to have to cite specific examples for this one.

But nothing has stripped Americans of their "citizens' rights" more, than the Patriot and Military Commissions Acts, which was Bush-driven legislation. And I don't recall anyone on the right protesting those at the time they were enacted.

You people need to walk your talk.

 

[MeBelle]

I ask again...are those stats for citizens?

Redfish

No discussion of healthcare can take place without also looking at the cost per taxpayer:

USA: $8,233

Norway: $5,388

Swtizerland $5,270

Germany $4,338

France $3,978

List of countries by total health expenditure (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It could actually cost less, if it is run well.

I ask again...are those stats for citizens?

 

[Agit8r]

He's a bit right wing for my taste. All the religious crap at the inauguration was annoying too.

 

[Dubya]

I ask again...are those stats for citizens?

Redfish

No discussion of healthcare can take place without also looking at the cost per taxpayer:

USA: $8,233

Norway: $5,388

Swtizerland $5,270

Germany $4,338

France $3,978

List of countries by total health expenditure (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It could actually cost less, if it is run well.

I ask again...are those stats for citizens?

Well, let's look at it! The 2012 estimate for our population is 315,562,000. Multiplied by the cost that equals $2.598 trillion. The stats aren't probably old or used a smaller population, but that number is in the ballpark of what I've been told the figure is for our health care. The latest report from the BLS shows 155,654,000 people in the workforce, which is less than half the population. Even if adjusted up somewhat, our yearly health care costs are definitely much more than $1.3 trillion, so my guess is the figure was based on population and not taxpayers.

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), the United States spent more on health care per capita ($7,146), and more on health care as percentage of its GDP (15.2%), than any other nation in 2008. The Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States last in the quality of health care among similar countries, and notes U.S. care costs the most.

The Office of the Actuary (OACT) of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services publishes data on total health care spending in the United States, including both historical levels and future projections.[35] In 2007, the U.S. spent $2.26 trillion on health care, or $7,439 per person, up from $2.1 trillion, or $7,026 per capita, the previous year.[36] Spending in 2006 represented 16% of GDP, an increase of 6.7% over 2004 spending. Growth in spending is projected to average 6.7% annually over the period 2007 through 2017.

Source: Health care in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea01.pdf

 

[Saigon]

MeBelle -

I'm not sure why you ask, but presumably yes - all statistics are per citizen.

 

[Borillar]

If you are a liberal or Democrat, I' like to hear from you about what you do not like, or have not liked, about the Obama administration.

I'll go first -

1) Austerity. In Obama's first day in power five years ago, I thought he should have anounced austerity cuts, and big ones. He had the public support to actually go out and say "We're damn near broke" and slash a billion or so off spending. I didn't mind the Stim Pack per se, but I think spending cuts needed to go along side it.

2) Climate Change. Obama has been too passive on this. I'd like to have seen clearer statements of intent, backed by science ordinary people could understand, so that Americans could understand more of the issue.

3) Admitting Error. Maybe it's unreasonable, but with some of the scandals like 'Fast & Furious' I'd always like to see politicians admit that mistakes were made. I think people would respect it more than excuses.

4) Closing the revolving door between Goldman Sachs and the White House. Stop hiring people from lobbies, and put distance between lobbies and positions of responsibility.

5) Cut military spending. I'd like Obama to stand up to the military, and present a long term strategy of reducing spending massively, and converting the military into a force that can deal with guerillas and al Queda, and rely less on cold war thinking.

I am disappointed with the Obama administration over several matters:

1) Not getting rid of the DHS.
2) Not closing Guantanamo.
3) Continuing Patriot Act and Bush era police state .
4) No public option with healthcare reform.
5) Not getting out of Afghanistan.
6) Not recognizing that Republicans would not work with him no matter what.

Hope and Change became Republican Lite, but I suppose it is better than the alternative.

 

[MeBelle]

MeBelle -

I'm not sure why you ask, but presumably yes - all statistics are per citizen.

Yes, all stats are for citizens.

Do the stats take into account the millions of illegal immigrants who burden citizens for their healthcare costs?

Illegal immigration to the United States is the act of foreign nationals entering the United States, without government permission and in violation of United States nationality law, or staying beyond the termination date of a visa, also in violation of the law.
The illegal immigrant population of the United States in 2008 was estimated by the Center for Immigration Studies to be about 11 million people, down from 12.5 million people in 2007.[1] Other estimates range from 7 to 20 million.[2]
Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MeBelle]

I ask again...are those stats for citizens?


I ask again...are those stats for citizens?

Well, let's look at it! The 2012 estimate for our population is 315,562,000. Multiplied by the cost that equals $2.598 trillion. The stats aren't probably old or used a smaller population, but that number is in the ballpark of what I've been told the figure is for our health care.

The latest report from the BLS shows 155,654,000 people in the workforce, which is less than half the population. Even if adjusted up somewhat, our yearly health care costs are definitely much more than $1.3 trillion, so my guess is the figure was based on population and not taxpayers

Thanks for the post, but it didn't answer my question.
I said nothing about population (citizens) vs taxpayers.

 

[Saigon]

Do the stats take into account the millions of illegal immigrants who burden citizens for their healthcare costs?

Germany and France have large numbers of illegal migrants, certainly.

I don't really see where you are going with this.

 

[Meathead]

Do the stats take into account the millions of illegal immigrants who burden citizens for their healthcare costs?

Germany and France have large numbers of illegal migrants, certainly.

I don't really see where you are going with this.

The numbers are minuscule relative to the US, and you know it.

 

[Saigon]

]The numbers are minuscule relative to the US, and you know it.

No, that isn't true at all - and certainly not on a per capita basis.

As of 2004, French think-tank Institut Montaigne estimated that there were 51 million (85%) white people or European origin, 6 million (10%) of North African people, 2 million (3.5%) of Black people and 1 million (1.5%) people of Asian origin in Metropolitan France, including all generations of immigrant descendants.

Demographics of France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So that is 15% of the population being either immigrants or the children of immigrants.

I don't call that "miniscule".

 

[Meathead]

]The numbers are minuscule relative to the US, and you know it.

No, that isn't true at all - and certainly not on a per capita basis.

As of 2004, French think-tank Institut Montaigne estimated that there were 51 million (85%) white people or European origin, 6 million (10%) of North African people, 2 million (3.5%) of Black people and 1 million (1.5%) people of Asian origin in Metropolitan France, including all generations of immigrant descendants.

Demographics of France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So that is 15% of the population being either immigrants or the children of immigrants.

I don't call that "miniscule".

You are either stupid or simply disingenuous. Illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants and that was what we were discussing. By your formula, nearly 100 million people in the US or 30% of those in America who are not "white" would fall into the whatever category you imagine we are addressing. Where to we put the million or so (maybe more, I don't know) illegal immigrants who are white?

Saigon, that's just a fucking stupid, not to mention racist, argument. What the hell are you talking about?!

 

[Saigon]

Meathead -

Let's perhaps leave it there and see if anyone else wishes to discuss it more sensibly.

I'm really not interested in abuse-athons.

 

[Meathead]

Meathead -

Let's perhaps leave it there and see if anyone else wishes to discuss it more sensibly.

I'm really not interested in abuse-athons.

Neither am I. However, I am not interested in air-headed responses either, and I've seen few stupider and less thought-out.

Sorry, that was not sensible by any standard. Your citation of French demographics was squarely beyond any "sensible" point, racist and vacuous, to say the least.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Meathead -

Let's perhaps leave it there and see if anyone else wishes to discuss it more sensibly.

I'm really not interested in abuse-athons.

Why don't you just admit you had your ass handed to you, and move on?

Besides, you're a fuckin' euro, nobody really gives a shit what you socialist loons think in this country, except for the Obamabot loons, of course.

 

[Saigon]

Wicked Jester -

you're a fuckin' euro, nobody really gives a shit what you socialist loons think in this country

I'm fairly sure France is in Europe - though by all means correct me if I am wrong.

Regardless of what the Tourettes-suffering Meathead might tell us, more than 10% of the population (7.2 million people) of France are immigrants, a number I would hardly consider "miniscule".

btw, "Euro" is a currency - not a person.

 

[MeBelle]

]The numbers are minuscule relative to the US, and you know it.

No, that isn't true at all - and certainly not on a per capita basis.

As of 2004, French think-tank Institut Montaigne estimated that there were 51 million (85%) white people or European origin, 6 million (10%) of North African people, 2 million (3.5%) of Black people and 1 million (1.5%) people of Asian origin in Metropolitan France, including all generations of immigrant descendants.

Demographics of France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So that is 15% of the population being either immigrants or the children of immigrants.

I don't call that "miniscule".

There is a huge difference between an illegal immigrant and an immigrant

 

[Meathead]

Wicked Jester -

you're a fuckin' euro, nobody really gives a shit what you socialist loons think in this country

I'm fairly sure France is in Europe - though by all means correct me if I am wrong.

Regardless of what the Tourettes-suffering Meathead might tell us, more than 10% of the population (7.2 million people) of France are immigrants, a number I would hardly consider "miniscule".

btw, "Euro" is a currency - not a person.

Stupid, racist, disingenuous, and now we can add feeble. You are well-spoken and as I've met a few Finns in my extensive travels, my initial reactions to your input was one of disagreement with respect. Over the last several days, in this thread and another, I have had to re-access my opinion. Your responses above have left little doubt about the caliber of poster or debater you are. Sad, because In truth there are few here who can carry on informed and intelligent dialog, and initial impressions are often flawed.

 

[Saigon]

Meathead -

Actually on the first thread I ever noticed your posting, it was characterised by torrents of completely pointless abuse and little more. I haven't revised my opinion.

As impressive as your skills in name-calling are, I wouldn't have thought this qualified you as some kind of arbiter of negotiation and etiquette. There are a hundred posters here who rely largely on abuse, and you are one of them.

The fact remains - more than 10% of the population of France are immigrants.