Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist

[georgephillip]

Which is more important capitalism or democracy?

Thom Hartman raised the issue in a recent post:

Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent

"Some years ago, Trump economic adviser Stephen Moore (before he was Trump’s advisor) was a guest on my radio/TV program.

"I asked him, 'Which is more important, democracy or capitalism?.

"Without hesitation, Moore answered, 'Capitalism.'

"That philosophy (of capitalism being more important than 'We the People' democracy), has held the Republican Party in its thrall for the past 40 years, and has brought America to this moment of great crisis and danger.

"It has transformed America from a democracy to an oligarchy, and the point of no return is now visible.

"And that presents a true crisis for America, because oligarchy is almost always merely a transitional phase in the evolution of full-blown tyranny and/or fascism."

Democracy is a form of government made by the people for all the people.

Capitalism is a form of governance where a small minority of all the people control the means of production thereby ensuring they decide how any economic surplus will be distributed.

Over time this provides the small minority of society to use a fraction of their share of the economic surplus to control government.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Which is more important capitalism or democracy?

Thom Hartman raised the issue in a recent post:

Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent

"Some years ago, Trump economic adviser Stephen Moore (before he was Trump’s advisor) was a guest on my radio/TV program.

"I asked him, 'Which is more important, democracy or capitalism?.

"Without hesitation, Moore answered, 'Capitalism.'

"That philosophy (of capitalism being more important than 'We the People' democracy), has held the Republican Party in its thrall for the past 40 years, and has brought America to this moment of great crisis and danger.

"It has transformed America from a democracy to an oligarchy, and the point of no return is now visible.

"And that presents a true crisis for America, because oligarchy is almost always merely a transitional phase in the evolution of full-blown tyranny and/or fascism."

Democracy is a form of government made by the people for all the people.

Capitalism is a form of governance where a small minority of all the people control the means of production thereby ensuring they decide how any economic surplus will be distributed.

Over time this provides the small minority of society to use a fraction of their share of the economic surplus to control government.

Capitalism is a form of governance where a small minority of all the people control the means of production thereby ensuring they decide how any economic surplus will be distributed.

Economic surplus? LOL!

 

[dblack]

Which is more important capitalism or democracy?

Capitalism

Democracy is a form of government made by the people for all the people.

Nope. Democracy serves the interests of the majority. Not ALL the people

Capitalism is a form of governance

No, it's not a form governance.

 

[Dragonlady]

Capitalism is a form of governance where a small minority of all the people control the means of production thereby ensuring they decide how any economic surplus will be distributed.

Economic surplus? LOL!

In short - Wealth.

I'm not surprised that you missed that. Your understanding of economics has all the depth of a kiddy wading pool.

 

[bripat9643]

Which is more important capitalism or democracy?

Thom Hartman raised the issue in a recent post:

Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent

"Some years ago, Trump economic adviser Stephen Moore (before he was Trump’s advisor) was a guest on my radio/TV program.

"I asked him, 'Which is more important, democracy or capitalism?.

"Without hesitation, Moore answered, 'Capitalism.'

"That philosophy (of capitalism being more important than 'We the People' democracy), has held the Republican Party in its thrall for the past 40 years, and has brought America to this moment of great crisis and danger.

"It has transformed America from a democracy to an oligarchy, and the point of no return is now visible.

"And that presents a true crisis for America, because oligarchy is almost always merely a transitional phase in the evolution of full-blown tyranny and/or fascism."

Democracy is a form of government made by the people for all the people.

Capitalism is a form of governance where a small minority of all the people control the means of production thereby ensuring they decide how any economic surplus will be distributed.

Over time this provides the small minority of society to use a fraction of their share of the economic surplus to control government.

Capitalism is more important. Capitalism is just another word for economic freedom, and that's far more important than choosing a new gang of overseers every couple of years.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

In short - Wealth.

I'm not surprised that you missed that. Your understanding of economics has all the depth of a kiddy wading pool.

In short - Wealth.

Someone other than the business owner should distribute its wealth?

Your understanding of economics has all the depth of a kiddy wading pool.

Not like you, eh comrade?

 

[bripat9643]

In short - Wealth.

I'm not surprised that you missed that. Your understanding of economics has all the depth of a kiddy wading pool.

There's a difference between a "surplus" and wealth. In reality, there is no economic surplus.

 

[Dragonlady]

There's a difference between a "surplus" and wealth. In reality, there is no economic surplus.

So you're trying to say there is no wealth. Without a surplus, you don't have anything to accumulate, and without accumulation, there is no wealth.

This is the ABC's of economics. We're not talking rocket science here.

 

[Thunderbird]

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf

"Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.

"Capitalism is not democratic, democracy not capitalist.

"During the first postwar decades, tensions between the two were moderated through the socio-political embedding of capitalism by an interventionist tax and welfare state.

"Yet, the financialization of capitalism since the 1980s has broken the precarious capitalist-democratic compromise."

Reagan's tax cuts facilitated low interest rates and financial bubbles to promote US financial expansion by making real estate speculation and junk-bond corporate takeovers effectively exempt from income taxation.

This set in motion a chain-reaction of asset price inflation that is still polarizing this economy today.

The primary mode of accumulation has become financial, enabling investment bankers to replace government

It’s okay to criticize capitalism, but people who demonize capitalism usually want to set up a dictatorship.

 

[bripat9643]

So you're trying to say there is no wealth. Without a surplus, you don't have anything to accumulate, and without accumulation, there is no wealth.

This is the ABC's of economics. We're not talking rocket science here.

It's "surplus" only in the eyes of greedy looters like you. No one believes anything they own is "surplus," dumbass.

Wealth exists, but there is no such thing as "surplus wealth." That's purely a Marxist delusion.

 

[Dragonlady]

It’s okay to criticize capitalism, but people who demonize capitalism usually want to set up a dictatorship.

Wrong on every score. The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism. You have all of these "either/or" fallacies. "Either you want to build the Wall, or you favour open borders". "Either you're in favour of 'free market capitalism' or you're a communist". None of these things are "either/or" scenarios.

"Free Market capitalism" is the basis of everything that is going wrong in the USA at the moment. It's not socialism that has turned South America into the political hellscape we see today, but rather South America is what happens when you give the country over to free market capitalism. The poverty, the murder of leftist leaders, the extreme violence, all leading to today's Brazil, where death squads go through the barrios gunning down any male not working, as suspected "gang members".

Just as communism has failed where ever it's been tried, so have the attempts of the IMF and the World Bank to impose unfettered capitalism on countries seeking financial assistance in the fall of communism, since the early 1990's. Most countries were quick to discard the IMF imposed economic straight jackets on social spending and worker rights. But the results are already being seen.

To no one's surprise, you have authoritarian right wing governments in Venezuela, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Poland, Hungary, and Russia - all countries which received IMF funding with Milton Friedman's "capitalism on steriods" which imposed Chicago School of Economics economics, labor and social spending doctrines on those countries as a condition to funding. South Africa is another IMF success story.

Today, the only country in the world still in thrall to Friedman's discredited notions is the USA, which is currently sliding into 2nd world status as a result. The gap between rich and poor is now widening at the fastest rate in your history, and your declining life expectancy is proof positive of the failure of your current social/economic structures.

Without a healthy and thriving middle class, your country will continue to decline. The oligarchs have taken over your economy and are now pushing you into an authoritarian dictatorship. You're nearly there.

 

[bripat9643]

Wrong on every score. The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism. You have all of these "either/or" fallacies. "Either you want to build the Wall, or you favour open borders". "Either you're in favour of 'free market capitalism' or you're a communist". None of these things are "either/or" scenarios.

"Free Market capitalism" is the basis of everything that is going wrong in the USA at the moment. It's not socialism that has turned South America into the political hellscape we see today, but rather South America is what happens when you give the country over to free market capitalism. The poverty, the murder of leftist leaders, the extreme violence, all leading to today's Brazil, where death squads go through the barrios gunning down any male not working, as suspected "gang members".

Just as communism has failed where ever it's been tried, so have the attempts of the IMF and the World Bank to impose unfettered capitalism on countries seeking financial assistance in the fall of communism, since the early 1990's. Most countries were quick to discard the IMF imposed economic straight jackets on social spending and worker rights. But the results are already being seen.

To no one's surprise, you have authoritarian right wing governments in Venezuela, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Poland, Hungary, and Russia - all countries which received IMF funding with Milton Friedman's "capitalism on steriods" which imposed Chicago School of Economics economics, labor and social spending doctrines on those countries as a condition to funding. South Africa is another IMF success story.

Today, the only country in the world still in thrall to Friedman's discredited notions is the USA, which is currently sliding into 2nd world status as a result. The gap between rich and poor is now widening at the fastest rate in your history, and your declining life expectancy is proof positive of the failure of your current social/economic structures.

Without a healthy and thriving middle class, your country will continue to decline. The oligarchs have taken over your economy and are now pushing you into an authoritarian dictatorship. You're nearly there.

" The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism."

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Wrong on every score. The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism. You have all of these "either/or" fallacies. "Either you want to build the Wall, or you favour open borders". "Either you're in favour of 'free market capitalism' or you're a communist". None of these things are "either/or" scenarios.

"Free Market capitalism" is the basis of everything that is going wrong in the USA at the moment. It's not socialism that has turned South America into the political hellscape we see today, but rather South America is what happens when you give the country over to free market capitalism. The poverty, the murder of leftist leaders, the extreme violence, all leading to today's Brazil, where death squads go through the barrios gunning down any male not working, as suspected "gang members".

Just as communism has failed where ever it's been tried, so have the attempts of the IMF and the World Bank to impose unfettered capitalism on countries seeking financial assistance in the fall of communism, since the early 1990's. Most countries were quick to discard the IMF imposed economic straight jackets on social spending and worker rights. But the results are already being seen.

To no one's surprise, you have authoritarian right wing governments in Venezuela, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Poland, Hungary, and Russia - all countries which received IMF funding with Milton Friedman's "capitalism on steriods" which imposed Chicago School of Economics economics, labor and social spending doctrines on those countries as a condition to funding. South Africa is another IMF success story.

Today, the only country in the world still in thrall to Friedman's discredited notions is the USA, which is currently sliding into 2nd world status as a result. The gap between rich and poor is now widening at the fastest rate in your history, and your declining life expectancy is proof positive of the failure of your current social/economic structures.

Without a healthy and thriving middle class, your country will continue to decline. The oligarchs have taken over your economy and are now pushing you into an authoritarian dictatorship. You're nearly there.

The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism.

LOL!

To no one's surprise, you have authoritarian right wing governments in Venezuela,

What's right wing about the government in Venezuela?

 

[Rigby5]

Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist​

And Communism is not successful.

I agree that capitalism is economic and has nothing to do with governing systems like democracy, theocracy, autocracy, etc.

But all humans always inherently implement communism whenever they get the chance, like all small scales.
That included all families, religious orders, small tribes, etc.

No one has ever allowed communism to be tried on a scale larger than an employee owned company.
Anyone who ever has tried, like Trotsky, was killed by capitalist agents like Stalin.

 

[Rigby5]

The US isn't a Democracy, Dumbass.

True, but when people say "democracy", that is usually short hand intended to imply, "representative, democratic, republic."

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I agree that capitalism is economic and has nothing to do with governing systems like democracy, theocracy, autocracy, etc.

But all humans always inherently implement communism whenever they get the chance, like all small scales.
That included all families, religious orders, small tribes, etc.

No one has ever allowed communism to be tried on a scale larger than an employee owned company.
Anyone who ever has tried, like Trotsky, was killed by capitalist agents like Stalin.

Stalin wasn't trying communism?

 

[Rigby5]

Yeah, Venezuela and Cuba are much better off with their collective bullshit. Russia and NoKo too. The waiting line for Americans waiting to go to those four countries must stretch for miles.

There is nothing collective, cooperative, or communal about Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, or China.
Is there shared equity among the people and leaders?
No.
Are the leaders motivated for their own profit?
Yes.
Therefore it is CAPITALISM.

 

[Rigby5]

Stalin wasn't trying communism?

No, Stalin was not even aware of what communism or capitalism was.
He was just a bank robber that the party needed in order to gain funding early on.
They made him party secretary, thinking he could then do no harm.
But they forgot that secretaries make lists.
And eventually he killed all those on the list that said "communists".
There was not one single communist that Stalin left alive.
So tell we how Stalin was going to "try communism" after killing every single communist?

 

[Rigby5]

The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism.

LOL!

To no one's surprise, you have authoritarian right wing governments in Venezuela,

What's right wing about the government in Venezuela?

Obviously capitalism is dangerous.
It relies on and enhances materialism, greed, and all the bad emotions that get people to kill and steal from each other.
However, it also promotes innovation and motivation, so it often wins wars.
So to survive, we need a combination of socialism that allows capitalism, but regulates it enough to prevent abuses like slavery, child labor, etc.
Pure capitalism is pure evil, where if you want something, you just kill whomever has it and take it.
Pure capitalism can never be allowed.

The government in Venezuela is totally right wing, using military force to prevent popular opinions from being implemented, and the wealthy elite getting all the benefits from industry that is supposed to be equitably shared.
That is exactly right wing capitalism.
The only reason why the US does not like it is that it is Venezuelan capitalists getting all the wealth instead of US capitalists.
Capitalists can't even get along with each other.

 

[progressive hunter]

Obviously capitalism is dangerous.
It relies on and enhances materialism, greed, and all the bad emotions that get people to kill and steal from each other.
However, it also promotes innovation and motivation, so it often wins wars.
So to survive, we need a combination of socialism that allows capitalism, but regulates it enough to prevent abuses like slavery, child labor, etc.
Pure capitalism is pure evil, where if you want something, you just kill whomever has it and take it.
Pure capitalism can never be allowed.

The government in Venezuela is totally right wing, using military force to prevent popular opinions from being implemented, and the wealthy elite getting all the benefits from industry that is supposed to be equitably shared.
That is exactly right wing capitalism.
The only reason why the US does not like it is that it is Venezuelan capitalists getting all the wealth instead of US capitalists.
Capitalists can't even get along with each other.

that has got to be the most uneducated and moronic comment I have ever read,,,