Catholic Bishops Oppose Compromise on Birth-Control

[HUGGY]

You know, it is funny but these arguments seem to be circular. Chances are, just like our government is broke, England's healthcare system is broken because of the global economic collapse, which I should remind you the GOP created.

And the answer? Like here in America, the rich need to start chipping in their fair share in England. I know you think they pay more than their fair share, but that is simply not true. Not only should we in America roll back the Bush tax breaks, we should also eliminate the Reagan tax breaks.

Its not just in Wisconsin or the 99%ers all over the country. Its the middle class in France and Greece and Syria and Egypt. Everywhere people are waking up to the oppression. And we aren't buying it that its because of social security, medicare, unions or fanny may.

The multinational robber barons have waged class warfare on the middle class.

And the funny thing, it must have also hurt you. Do you have a 401K or a home? Then the GOP's policies hurt you too. Will nothing wake you up?

The British Healthcare system was on life support long before the global economic collapse... which, despite your insistence was not caused by the GOP.... even a fucking idiot could work that out... but happily, we have international economists to rely on and they have provided vast amounts of research based opinion on the causes (note: more than one) of the collapse. Not one mention of the GOP in any of them. I know - because I have read and written about the results.

I have investments, and I have a home - with a reasonable mortgage which I can afford. I'm fine financially.... but I am smart with my money. If you weren't, don't come crying to me about it.

On the bright side, I am awake... and taking care of myself. I suggest you do likewise and stop expecting other people to pick up your tab.

You are just a brainwashed right winger who can't admit that the GOP caused the global meltdown. Their policies crashed the US economy and our crashed caused the global crash, because we are the engine that drives the global economy. Hell, even Europes/Greece crisis might even collapse our economy.

You right wingers want to forget it was Bush and Tom Delay's polices from 2006-2006 that caused this mess. I'm not going to debate it with you. Its like debating whether or not Bush lied us into Iraq. Everyone knows now he did but you guys still won't admit it.

Survey says most people TODAY still understand that it was Bush's polices, not Obama's or Nancy Pelosi's that crashed the economy.

The fact that the media never told you it was the GOP should make you question if the media is really liberal. And if it is not, and its been misleading you, maybe you are brainwashed.

P.S. I guarantee you that the majority of "international scientists" agree with me on what crashed the economy. Sure you can find one or two that agree with you for political purposes, just like you can find one or two that say global warming doesn't exist or cigarettes do not cause cancer.

But please don't suggest that the majority of economists agree with you.

Bush tax breaks have bankrupted us.

All the jobs that went overseas bankrupted us.

The wars bankrupted us.

The Bank bailout that started on Bush's watch bankrupted us.

Deregulating the mortgage industry caused the collapse.

It wasn't Fanny Mae or Freddy Mack. They played a small part but you tried to lay it on them to avoid taking responsibility.

And fact is, they did it on purpose. It helped them push their agenda of breaking government. And they got richer and we got poorer. They did it on purpose, and you don't realize it. But keep studying.

How fucking DARE you!!!!!

When addressing the Queen of England you must first Kertsie..then only speak when spoken to.

That is all.

 

[del]

I personally don't think the catholic church should discriminate against their women employees. Are they threatening to stop covering health care costs that only directly apply to men?

only the ones that are against their doctrine prolly

So, you're saying that the Catholic Church is putting forth equal effort to eliminate employee health coverage plans that will cover circumcision?

no, i'd never say anything that stupid.

apparently you would

 

[Inthemiddle]

only the ones that are against their doctrine prolly

So, you're saying that the Catholic Church is putting forth equal effort to eliminate employee health coverage plans that will cover circumcision?

no, i'd never say anything that stupid.

apparently you would

Wait, it's stupid to say that? Why? The Catholic church condemns circumcision that doesn't specifically serve a medical function.

 

[del]

So, you're saying that the Catholic Church is putting forth equal effort to eliminate employee health coverage plans that will cover circumcision?

no, i'd never say anything that stupid.

apparently you would

Wait, it's stupid to say that? Why? The Catholic church condemns circumcision that doesn't specifically serve a medical function.

link?

 

[Annie]

no, i'd never say anything that stupid.

apparently you would

Wait, it's stupid to say that? Why? The Catholic church condemns circumcision that doesn't specifically serve a medical function.

link?

They won't find one, that isn't the teaching of the church. The only mention in Church teaching is that for 'religious reasons' it's not necessary, though there are other reasons, including the wishes of the parents that are fine. No problem with the procedure.

 

[GuyPinestra]

So, you're saying that the Catholic Church is putting forth equal effort to eliminate employee health coverage plans that will cover circumcision?

no, i'd never say anything that stupid.

apparently you would

Wait, it's stupid to say that? Why? The Catholic church condemns circumcision that doesn't specifically serve a medical function.

That's a different outlook since I was a kid, and I've got the scars to prove it!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yes, it is. Our country anymore is crippled with the unwillingness to compromise. Too many people are hell bent on getting exactly their way or stomping their feet and holding their breath until they get it.

Compromise is such a wonderful thing, it gave us slavery and Jim Crow laws. Can't live without compromise.

No, it won't. If you'd been paying attention, it was already explained in the article that the insurance companies would be required to provide the coverage at the same rate as a plan without the coverage, and that the result would probably be across the board adjustments for premium prices, which would absorb the costs. The church isn't going to be paying for anything, other than their normal contribution as an employer. Which, of course, is not any different than the original plan. The church was never going to be paying for anything. It was ALWAYS the individual that would be paying.

Let me get this straight, they are going to up the prices for everyone, including churches, and then charge more on top of that to non church
groups, but the extra they will be charging the churches won't pay for it because you read an article that says they won't.

Good logic.

 

[syrenn]

No, it won't. If you'd been paying attention, it was already explained in the article that the insurance companies would be required to provide the coverage at the same rate as a plan without the coverage, and that the result would probably be across the board adjustments for premium prices, which would absorb the costs. The church isn't going to be paying for anything, other than their normal contribution as an employer. Which, of course, is not any different than the original plan. The church was never going to be paying for anything. It was ALWAYS the individual that would be paying.

Right... so what its saying is the chruch is not going to pay for it, but the insurance companies will raise MY rates to cover the costs.

Oh hell no.

How about if you want something that is not covered under your insurance plan.... pay for it yourself if you want it.

 

[Synthaholic]

Gotta love white men deciding what a woman should have covered on her health insurance. Ten bucks they have no problem covering Viagra. And any woman who says good job to this guy should not be proud. Time catholic women who have taking bc for years should start standing up to these men.
So no, not a good job Bishop. But what can you can you expect? They won't turn in their own when they are molesting children but BC is evil.

Thank you for adding another ignorant, racist rant to the thread. You know there are lots of BLACK Bishops in the Catholic Church, right?

Point out the racism, dope.

 

[Annie]

No, it won't. If you'd been paying attention, it was already explained in the article that the insurance companies would be required to provide the coverage at the same rate as a plan without the coverage, and that the result would probably be across the board adjustments for premium prices, which would absorb the costs. The church isn't going to be paying for anything, other than their normal contribution as an employer. Which, of course, is not any different than the original plan. The church was never going to be paying for anything. It was ALWAYS the individual that would be paying.

Right... so what its saying is the chruch is not going to pay for it, but the insurance companies will raise MY rates to cover the costs.

Oh hell no.

How about if you want something that is not covered under your insurance plan.... pay for it yourself if you want it.

Of all the things there are needing help, 'more coverage for bc' seems to have been a very stupid move. Why? Well bc is cheap and readily available. Had someone say to me last night, well if providing it across the boards will help with illegitimacy rate, it's a good thing. Nonstarter, most illegitimate children are born by young mothers. They can get free bc pills at any clinic, regardless of socioeconomic status. In the high schools they can go to the counselors office and pick up condoms from a bowl, in the schools I'm at, they do it regularly. They don't grab handfuls, just 2 or 3 at a time. All sorts of kids, from the jocks and cheerleaders, to the geeks and AP kids.

The only ones really to benefit from this would be the adults already on bc and paying for it, from their salaries.

A much better bargain would be to take away 'all inclusive health care', raise their pay, and provide a much lower cost 'hospitalization insurance coverage.'

 

[Inthemiddle]

link?

You mean, you don't already know? You mean to tell me you're running your mouth without knowing what you're talking about? For shame.

Eccumenical Council of Florence and Council of Basel

It firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ's passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.

 

[Inthemiddle]

They won't find one, that isn't the teaching of the church. The only mention in Church teaching is that for 'religious reasons' it's not necessary, though there are other reasons, including the wishes of the parents that are fine. No problem with the procedure.

Well, I guess you feel pretty stupid right about now. Actually, the Council of Florence declared that even if not done for religious reasons, circumcision cannot be practiced "without loss of eternal salvation," as you see from my above post. So.....yeah.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Compromise is such a wonderful thing, it gave us slavery and Jim Crow laws. Can't live without compromise.

I don't know what's worse. The continuum fallacy. Or the fact that you are trying to make a positive case in favor of extremism. You're pathetic on both counts.

Let me get this straight, they are going to up the prices for everyone, including churches, and then charge more on top of that to non church groups, but the extra they will be charging the churches won't pay for it because you read an article that says they won't.

Uh, are you going to just make shit up, or are you going to get back in touch with reality?

 

[Annie]

They won't find one, that isn't the teaching of the church. The only mention in Church teaching is that for 'religious reasons' it's not necessary, though there are other reasons, including the wishes of the parents that are fine. No problem with the procedure.

Well, I guess you feel pretty stupid right about now. Actually, the Council of Florence declared that even if not done for religious reasons, circumcision cannot be practiced "without loss of eternal salvation," as you see from my above post. So.....yeah.

Well you must be feeling pretty stupid right about now, that you didn't understand what you were quoting about. Good lord!

 

[Jroc]

They won't find one, that isn't the teaching of the church. The only mention in Church teaching is that for 'religious reasons' it's not necessary, though there are other reasons, including the wishes of the parents that are fine. No problem with the procedure.

Well, I guess you feel pretty stupid right about now. Actually, the Council of Florence declared that even if not done for religious reasons, circumcision cannot be practiced "without loss of eternal salvation," as you see from my above post. So.....yeah.

Is Obama mandating circumcision now? Stay on topic

 

[Inthemiddle]

Right... so what its saying is the chruch is not going to pay for it, but the insurance companies will raise MY rates to cover the costs.

Oh hell no.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Now, I'm not in favor of this option. I think that the original plan is better and more fair. I'm just pointing out that the church is not going to be forced to pay for birth control. Then again, the original plan wouldn't have had the church paying for birth control either. Any differences in the premiums would be passed along to the employee.

How about if you want something that is not covered under your insurance plan.... pay for it yourself if you want it.

I would agree with that. The only problem is that the plan has to be available for these women to be able to obtain it. That's why I favor the original plan. That way, women can pay for the coverage they are using, instead of everyone else having to pay extra just so that we can maintain some superficial appearance of being politically correct.

 

[Inthemiddle]

They won't find one, that isn't the teaching of the church. The only mention in Church teaching is that for 'religious reasons' it's not necessary, though there are other reasons, including the wishes of the parents that are fine. No problem with the procedure.

Well, I guess you feel pretty stupid right about now. Actually, the Council of Florence declared that even if not done for religious reasons, circumcision cannot be practiced "without loss of eternal salvation," as you see from my above post. So.....yeah.

Is Obama mandating circumcision now? Stay on topic

Speaking of staying on topic, you should get back to it. We're talking about churches being required to offer health coverage that would cover things that they are "morally opposed" to, etc. If people want to argue that there is some kind of horrible injustice done by requiring the church to allow employees health coverage to include birth control, then logically the same passion and devotion should be being exercised in regards to coverage that includes circumcision. Anyone who insists now that it is somehow wrong of the church to have health plans for employees that cover birth control, must also maintain the same about circumcision, or abandon all claims to having a logical position.

 

[Inthemiddle]

They won't find one, that isn't the teaching of the church. The only mention in Church teaching is that for 'religious reasons' it's not necessary, though there are other reasons, including the wishes of the parents that are fine. No problem with the procedure.

Well, I guess you feel pretty stupid right about now. Actually, the Council of Florence declared that even if not done for religious reasons, circumcision cannot be practiced "without loss of eternal salvation," as you see from my above post. So.....yeah.

Well you must be feeling pretty stupid right about now, that you didn't understand what you were quoting about. Good lord!

That's right, I completely misunderstood it. When they said "no circumcision" I thought it meant "no circumcision." I didn't realize they really meant, "go for it, to each their own!"

 

[syrenn]

Right... so what its saying is the chruch is not going to pay for it, but the insurance companies will raise MY rates to cover the costs.

Oh hell no.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Now, I'm not in favor of this option. I think that the original plan is better and more fair. I'm just pointing out that the church is not going to be forced to pay for birth control. Then again, the original plan wouldn't have had the church paying for birth control either. Any differences in the premiums would be passed along to the employee.

How about if you want something that is not covered under your insurance plan.... pay for it yourself if you want it.

I would agree with that. The only problem is that the plan has to be available for these women to be able to obtain it. That's why I favor the original plan. That way, women can pay for the coverage they are using, instead of everyone else having to pay extra just so that we can maintain some superficial appearance of being politically correct.

Employers, in this case the chruch, contact with insurance companies for what they will and will not cover.

My insurance does not cover elective surgery or certain drugs. If i want them I pay for them.

That is NO different then what the chruch is doing.... and wants to continue to do.

How hard is this to understand?

 

[Annie]

Well, I guess you feel pretty stupid right about now. Actually, the Council of Florence declared that even if not done for religious reasons, circumcision cannot be practiced "without loss of eternal salvation," as you see from my above post. So.....yeah.

Well you must be feeling pretty stupid right about now, that you didn't understand what you were quoting about. Good lord!

That's right, I completely misunderstood it. When they said "no circumcision" I thought it meant "no circumcision." I didn't realize they really meant, "go for it, to each their own!"

That's not what was said. Read it, perhaps reread it again and again. You are not comprehending what was said.