Causes of Suffering

[USViking]

Is being mortal an evil thing? Is there a magic age when death is suddenly understandable? I've done my share of railing against the "unfairness" of being mortal. I'm glad it's over.

I would not call mortality intrinsically evil.

I would call disease evil.

I do think there is a magic age, and I will place
it somewhat arbitrarily at 70 and older, when the
human body can be expected to simply wear out.

 

[USViking]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joz
You know how long I have tho't about this one?
There is a difference in God teaching a lesson and sinful tragedy. The Bible says that it rains on the just the same as the unjust. Sometimes you get caught in the crossfire. And it hurts.



That's actually a quite unwise thing for you to say. The trouble with conversing on the Internet is that you never really know who you're talking to; the person you presume to lecture on suffering may be acquainted with the concept in ways you dare not even imagine.

I'm sorry about your brother.

My lecture stands on its merits regardless of the experiences
of anyone who reads it.

I will also repeat my earlier question:

"What exactly do you mean by "sinful tragedy" mean when
applied to my example?"

And I add this: how does it apply to my brother and parents?

 

[Joz]

My lecture stands on its merits regardless of the experiences
of anyone who reads it.

I think what he meant was, you may be preaching to the preacher.

"What exactly do you mean by "sinful tragedy" mean when
applied to my example?"

And I add this: how does it apply to my brother and parents?

Sometimes the fact that you are in this world results in the shitty things that happen.

 

[musicman]

My lecture stands on its merits regardless of the experiences
of anyone who reads it.

Well - no, it doesn't. In the first place, ...

Originally Posted by USViking
I have been thinking of it longer than you. My family lost
my two-year old brother more than 50 years ago to the
condition I describe in my example.

...isn't directed toward "anyone who reads it". It is aimed at someone specific. Moreover, it fails to have asked the question, "Have I the standing to lecture this specific person on her grasp of the concept of suffering"?

I reiterate - unwise.

 

[USViking]

Well - no, it doesn't. In the first place, ...

Originally Posted by USViking
I have been thinking of it longer than you. My family lost
my two-year old brother more than 50 years ago to the
condition I describe in my example.

...isn't directed toward "anyone who reads it". It is aimed at someone specific.

It is aimed at all people, so is universal.

It was addressed to one person so is also individual.

She told me of her loss. She does not want pity,
which is well, because I have been saying the
same thing for long before I knew her, no matter
who I was talking to.

Moreover, it fails to have asked the question, "Have I the standing to lecture this specific person on her grasp of the concept of suffering"?

My answer to the question is: Yes I have the standing.

I reiterate - unwise.

Who is lecturing now?

 

[musicman]

It is aimed at all people, so is universal.

Your universal message to mankind is, "I have been thinking about it longer than you"?

It was addressed to one person so is also individual.

My answer to the question is: Yes I have the standing

Who is lecturing now?

It's not my intention to make a big thing out of this, or turn it into a "who's suffered more?" pissing contest. It is quite possible that I, overprotectively, misread some offense where none was intended. But, I do believe that "who am I to say this thing to this person?" is a question we would all do well to ask ourselves from time to time.

 

[USViking]

Your universal message to mankind is, "I have been thinking about it longer than you"?

No, my message to Joz is that.

Quit swearing.

It's not my intention to make a big thing out of this, or turn it into a "who's suffered more?" pissing contest.

Quit swearing.

It is quite possible that I, overprotectively, misread some offense where none was intended. But, I do believe that "who am I to say this thing to this person?" is a question we would all do well to ask ourselves from time to time.

If you want someone to pat you on the back,
you have me. If you want someone to ask you
to agree with you when you say something stupid,
then it ain't me.

 

[musicman]

If you want someone to pat you on the back,
you have me. If you want someone to ask you
to agree with you when you say something stupid,
then it ain't me.

Clearly, we're working at cross-purposes here. I'm merely suggesting that one might consider stepping outside himself, and acknowledging that others are in pain, too - rather than diminishing their experiences because they are not his own. I guess you either possess the capacity to do that, or you don't.

 

[USViking]

Clearly, we're working at cross-purposes here. I'm merely suggesting that one might consider stepping outside himself, and acknowledging that others are in pain, too - rather than diminishing their experiences because they are not his own. I guess you either possess the capacity to do that, or you don't.

All human beings are as you say- feeling and thinking.

Not all human beings can back up what they say
as well as me.

Sorry, that is how I know myself.

I waited for an answer from Joz about the sins
of my parents and my brother.

I am not waiting any more. I am right.

 

[musicman]

All human beings are as you say- feeling and thinking.

Not all human beings can back up what they say
as well as me.

You mean like with the contradictory gibberish you've been throwing at me?

I waited for an answer from Joz about the sins
of my parents and my brother.

I am not waiting any more. I am right.

I imagine Joz will answer you when and if she feels like it; that's between y'all. I've simply asked you to conduct yourself as a normal, somewhat empathic human being - and it seems to be beyond your capacity.

 

[Annie]

You mean like with the contradictory gibberish you've been throwing at me?



I imagine Joz will answer you when and if she feels like it; that's between y'all. I've simply asked you to conduct yourself as a normal, somewhat empathic human being - and it seems to be beyond your capacity.

Indeed.

 

[Joz]

Also, I do not think the "rain" and "crossfire" metaphors
are useful......

I waited for an answer from Joz about the sins
of my parents and my brother.

I'm sorry I wasn't availabe to be your beck & call girl and answer you in a timely fashion.
You have also misunderstood all that I said. I don't know how else to say it other than this way. SHIT HAPPENS to good people. We live in a sinful world, people suffer. Babies get sick, children die, people lose homes, jobs, marriages, spouses. That is what I meant by a sinful tragedy.

 

[Bullypulpit]

I'm confused, you say you're Buddhist, granted not perfect. Yet, you proudly proclaim being a DINK. It's all so confusing!

As a DINK, my self-interest is a rational self-interest, which brings no harm to myself or others, and allows my wife and I to be more generous with the charities we do support.

 

[dilloduck]

As a DINK, my self-interest is a rational self-interest, which brings no harm to myself or others, and allows my wife and I to be more generous with the charities we do support.

LOL rational self interest ?

 

[Bullypulpit]

I have a real problem with #4.

For example, in what sense can a two-year-old who dies
of a brain tumor be said to have been "taught, purified", etc.?

The same goes for the two-year-old's family even though
some of them, being adults, may be capable of being taught
in ways a two-year-old cannot.

#4 seems to relate to the concept of "the original sin", a doctrine originally intended to bring more people under the auspices of the church in order to be baptized and be cleansed of this "sin".

 

[MissileMan]

#4 seems to relate to the concept of "the original sin", a doctrine originally intended to bring more people under the auspices of the church in order to be baptized and be cleansed of this "sin".

Original sin is one of the religious beliefs that I find most difficult to reconcile. On one hand, there's a belief that humans are "unholy" from the time of their conception because of original sin, on the other, the belief that infants and children are innocents. Do those two ideas contradict each other or am I reading too much into it?

 

[5stringJeff]

Original sin is one of the religious beliefs that I find most difficult to reconcile. On one hand, there's a belief that humans are "unholy" from the time of their conception because of original sin, on the other, the belief that infants and children are innocents. Do those two ideas contradict each other or am I reading too much into it?

Here's the short answer: Christians believe that babies and young children are not aware of their actions or the concepts of right or wrong. While Christians believe that all people are sinful from birth, many of us believe that what that means is that our hearts are inclined towards sinful behavior, not that we are guilty of a specific sin at birth. So it would be possible for God to allow a baby into heaven, since God would be aware that the baby wasn't able in its lifetime to differentiate between right and wrong, repent, etc.

 

[USViking]

#4 seems to relate to the concept of "the original sin", a doctrine originally intended to bring more people under the auspices of the church in order to be baptized and be cleansed of this "sin".

I do not see the connection with original sin.

As I understand the concept, we cannot be
taught, purified, emptied, or refined out of
our original sin by suffering, or anything else
in life.

Even if it is related to original sin, my question
still deserves a coherent answer, and no one has
been able to come up with anything better than
"shit happens".

With a little birdie twittering "indeed" in the background.

 

[Joz]

....my question still deserves a coherent answer, and no one has been able to come up with anything better than "shit happens"......

I guess I should start with an apology for my flippant answer. But discussing this topic causes these not yet healed wounds that I have to ooze with such pain, that sometimes that is the only way I can respond.

I'm not sure I know exactly what you are looking for. You want to know why your brother died at such an early age? I don't have an exact answer.

Other than what I stated earlier that here on earth "the sun shines on the evil & the good, the rains on the just & the unjust", Matt. 5:45. And in Ecclesiastes 9:2 says, "that all things come alike to all......"

In Gensis 3:16-18 you can read about the expulsion from the Garden of Eden, that because of sin,that sorrow would be greatly multiplied, the ground cursed with thorns & thistles, we were taken from dust and to dust we shall return.

And tho' I don't understand completely, I cling daily to the promises of seeing my son again. I physically ache not being able to touch his skin or smell his hair.
And tho' I have no intention of having a who's-suffered-more contest with you, if you think you can equate your suffering to that of mine or your parents, you can't even come close.

"For the Lord himself shall decend from heaven....and the dead in Christ shall rise first.....Then we which are live shall be caught up together......so we shall ever be with the Lord.
And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain,........".

You may also read in the Gospels of the Crucifixion. Where a Man who was pure & perfect came & shed His innocent blood that these promises can come true.

If you are truly looking for answers Viking, I hope you find them.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Joz, you are a gracious woman.