Zone1 Are Trinitarians and LDS Polytheists?

[onefour1]

If you believe that men can become gods (i.e. a core belief of the LDS), yes. That makes you a polytheist.

Do we believe that there are other gods in the universe? YES! Do we believe in worshipping any other God other than the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? NO! So we are very monotheistic in who we worship but we do believe, as Jesus did, that there are other gods in existence.

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

 

[ding]

Do we believe that there are other gods in the universe? YES! Do we believe in worshipping any other God other than the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? NO! So we are very monotheistic in who we worship but we do believe, as Jesus did, that there are other gods in existence.

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

There are no passages where Jesus explains that there are other gods. You take that passage out of context.

 

[Cougarbear]

If you believe that men can become gods (i.e. a core belief of the LDS), yes. That makes you a polytheist.

 

[onefour1]

Do we believe that we can become like God? YES! Jesus even commanded to become so:

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Imagine that! God loves his children so much that he wishes them to be as perfect as their Father in Heaven!

Jesus prayed to the Father that we may become one even as Jesus himself is one with the Father:

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Looks like the Father and Son hope that we all become perfect in one even as the Father and son are perfect in one. Sounds like the will of the Father is that we become like him and our Savior Jesus Christ. God doesn't want us to worship anything else other than the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, but he does wish that we become like him and that we become perfect even as the Father himself is perfect. Why would he command us to become such if it is not possible and not his will?

 

[Cougarbear]

They believe they can become gods. That makes them polytheists. If you still can't figure out how that makes them polytheists, I can't help you.

You don't understand the term or concept of polytheism. Polytheism believes that each "god" has their own power, authority and domain. Our concept of what Jesus preached that we are already gods knowing good an evil should make you understand better our position. At no time would we be separated from our Father in Heaven and his power, authority and dominion. Good and evil will not change. Polytheism says that it can as there is no one truth or true god.

 

[ding]

You don't understand the term or concept of polytheism. Polytheism believes that each "god" has their own power, authority and domain. Our concept of what Jesus preached that we are already gods knowing good an evil should make you understand better our position. At no time would we be separated from our Father in Heaven and his power, authority and dominion. Good and evil will not change. Polytheism says that it can as there is no one truth or true god.

I do understand the term and the concept. One God is monotheism. Multiple Gods is polytheism. That you only worship one of many is meaningless.

 

[Cougarbear]

You take that out of context.

That is such a weak comeback. The fact is, he said that after the people challenged him saying that he was a god, the Son of God. So, it's not out of context. What is true is your definition and understanding of God, the Godhead and all that this entails. Good and evil doesn't change. God is the same today, yesterday and forever. Knowing good and evil tells you something about yourself and relationship to the Father and Son. We have become like they are. But, we are just learning. Psalms 82:6

 

[ding]

That is such a weak comeback. The fact is, he said that after the people challenged him saying that he was a god, the Son of God. So, it's not out of context. What is true is your definition and understanding of God, the Godhead and all that this entails. Good and evil doesn't change. God is the same today, yesterday and forever. Knowing good and evil tells you something about yourself and relationship to the Father and Son. We have become like they are. But, we are just learning. Psalms 82:6

Jesus wasn't discussing men becoming Gods. I suggest you read what they were discussing for context.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Do we believe that there are other gods in the universe?

Sometimes l think there might be a whole committee of them looking down on us. As in the Ancient Greek myths of old. Deciding our fate, playing with us like toys. According to their whims.

They might even be imperfect, arguing and falling out with one another. Expressing anger and jealousy.

 

[ding]

That is such a weak comeback. The fact is, he said that after the people challenged him saying that he was a god, the Son of God. So, it's not out of context. What is true is your definition and understanding of God, the Godhead and all that this entails. Good and evil doesn't change. God is the same today, yesterday and forever. Knowing good and evil tells you something about yourself and relationship to the Father and Son. We have become like they are. But, we are just learning. Psalms 82:6

Latter-day Saints believe Jesus was born of a virgin, Mary, and that God the Father is the literal father of Jesus Christ, right?

Were you born of a virgin? Was God the Father your literal father? I'm guessing the answer to both of those questions is no. So setting aside John 10:34 doesn't mean what you think it means, how can you make the comparison from Jesus to you when you were not born of a virgin and God the Father is not your literal father?

 

[Meriweather]

So we are very monotheistic in who we worship but we do believe, as Jesus did, that there are other gods in existence.

The definition of monotheism is belief in one God, not worship of one of a number of Gods.

 

[onefour1]

Sometimes l think there might be a whole committee of them looking down on us. As in the Ancient Greek myths of old. Deciding our fate, playing with us like toys. According to their whims.

They might even be imperfect, arguing and falling out with one another. Expressing anger and jealousy.

As the children of God, we, as Psalms 82:6 clearly states, are gods. God the Father is the Father of our spirits. He created us before the foundation of this earth. Before coming to this earth we met in council before the Father and understood the purpose of coming to this mortal sphere. It is the work and glory of God to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of his children.

Psalms 82:1
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

 

[onefour1]

The definition of monotheism is belief in one God, not worship of one of a number of Gods.

Then why did Jesus view us as gods?

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Was Jesus polytheistic?

 

[ding]

Then why did Jesus view us as gods?

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

He didn't. He was referencing Psalm 82 which was a rebuke of man using little "g" gods. In John 10:34 Jesus uses the verse to prove that those to whom the word of God is addressed can fittingly be called “gods,” he's not saying men are literally gods. He is making that reference because he has done so much more. He is making a rebuttal to their arguing he committed blaspheme. That wasn't the great reveal you guys think it was. That was Jesus defending himself against an accusation of blaspheme.

Were you born of a virgin? Is God your literal father. Have you performed miracles like Jesus did? Are you a god right now? Because Jesus didn't ask, "can ye become gods?" Jesus asked, "Ye are gods?" with a little "g."

 

[Meriweather]

As the children of God, we, as Psalms 82:6 clearly states, are gods. God the Father is the Father of our spirits. He created us before the foundation of this earth. Before coming to this earth we met in council before the Father and understood the purpose of coming to this mortal sphere. It is the work and glory of God to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of his children.

Psalms 82:1
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

The Psalms and the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, a picturesque language with few words compared to subjective languages such as English. Plural in Hebrew cannot only be quantitative but qualitative as well.

Go back to the picture language of Hebrew, and the literal translation would be about oxen and would make no sense in English. Basically, the mightier oxen (God) is guiding/teaching those less than He--i.e., His chosen people and the human leaders and judges (gods). The rule of God teaches humans.

The LDS church must use the English translations and their own interpretation of God vs gods to support its belief. That interpretation crumbles and falls apart in the original Hebrew. It stands in Aramaic.

 

[onefour1]

He didn't. He was referencing Psalm 82 which was a rebuke of man using little "g" gods. In John 10:34 Jesus uses the verse to prove that those to whom the word of God is addressed can fittingly be called “gods,” he's not saying men are literally gods. He is making that reference because he has done so much more as a rebuttal to their arguing he committed blaspheme. That wasn't the great reveal you guys think it was. That was Jesus defending himself against an accusation of blaspheme.

Were you born of a virgin? Is God your literal father. Have you performed miracles like Jesus did? Are you a god right now? Because Jesus didn't ask, "can ye become gods?" Jesus asked, "Ye are gods?" with a little "g."

Yes, God has called us all gods with a little "g". This is because he is the only God whom we should worship. He stresses his true meaning of Psalms 82:6 in John 10 when the Jews accused him of blasphemy for calling himself the Son of God. Here is what he said:

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Here the Jews are taking up stones to stone Jesus for blasphemy because he called himself the Son of God.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Here Jesus questions them as to why they seek to stone him. He asks, "for which of those works do ye stone me?".

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
The Jews reply by telling Jesus they are not stoning him for any good works but for blasphemy because Jesus being a man is making himself to be God. They Jews felt that this was blasphemy to consider yourself to be God by calling himself the Son of God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jesus' responds by reminding the Jews that it is written in their law that He called all of us gods. (reference Psalms 82:6)

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jesus then reasons that if He called all of us gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken:

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
how can you say that it is blasphemy that Jesus calls himself the son of God?

Here Jesus uses Psalms 82:6 to point out that the Jewish law stated that to all who the word of God came were gods. If that be there law, then how could it be blasphemy to call himself the Son of God? Jesus uses this verse as if it means that we are all literally gods and that it is not blasphemy for himself to call himself the Son of God. So Jesus uses the verse in its true context. We are gods and all of us are children of the Most High. Gods beget gods. This is what Paul taught in the book of Acts:

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

We are the literal offspring of our Father in Heaven. We are his spirit children.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

As the literal offspring of God, we are gods even children of the Most High:

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Were you born of a virgin? NO but my spirit and yours was born of heavenly parents.

Is God your literal father. YES He is the literal Father of my spirit.

Have you performed miracles like Jesus did? NO. Why would that matter?

Are you a god right now? YES According to the words of Jesus. See John 10:34 and Psalms 82:6

Because Jesus didn't ask, "can ye become gods?" Jesus asked, "Ye are gods?" with a little "g." NO. Jesus simply asked the Jews if was not written in their law that He said, "Ye are gods". He wasn't asking if the were gods but was pointing out to them that their very law has their God stating that "Ye are gods". See Psalms 82:6 above for what Jesus was pointing out to the Jews. He wasn't asking if they were gods but was asking if it was not written in their law that he said, "Ye are gods". The context of John 10 clearly tells us that by the way it is used, that Jesus literally meant "gods".

 

[onefour1]

The Psalms and the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, a picturesque language with few words compared to subjective languages such as English. Plural in Hebrew cannot only be quantitative but qualitative as well.

Go back to the picture language of Hebrew, and the literal translation would be about oxen and would make no sense in English. Basically, the mightier oxen (God) is guiding/teaching those less than He--i.e., His chosen people and the human leaders and judges (gods). The rule of God teaches humans.

The LDS church must use the English translations and their own interpretation of God vs gods to support its belief. That interpretation crumbles and falls apart in the original Hebrew. It stands in Aramaic.

Let's put judges into the John 10 context and see how that works:

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are judges?
35 If he called them judges, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Nope! Doesn't make any sense!!

 

[Meriweather]

Let's put judges into the John 10 context and see how that works:

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are judges?
35 If he called them judges, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Nope! Doesn't make any sense!!

Try it in Hebrew and Aramaic. Keep oxen in mind.

Oxen is beyond what you understand, correct? You can understand yourself becoming a god, so you conclude that is what Jesus must have meant.

 

[ding]

Yes, God has called us all gods with a little "g". This is because he is the only God whom we should worship. He stresses his true meaning of Psalms 82:6 in John 10 when the Jews accused him of blasphemy for calling himself the Son of God. Here is what he said:

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Here the Jews are taking up stones to stone Jesus for blasphemy because he called himself the Son of God.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Here Jesus questions them as to why they seek to stone him. He asks, "for which of those works do ye stone me?".

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
The Jews reply by telling Jesus they are not stoning him for any good works but for blasphemy because Jesus being a man is making himself to be God. They Jews felt that this was blasphemy to consider yourself to be God by calling himself the Son of God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jesus' responds by reminding the Jews that it is written in their law that He called all of us gods. (reference Psalms 82:6)

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jesus then reasons that if He called all of us gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken:

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
how can you say that it is blasphemy that Jesus calls himself the son of God?

Here Jesus uses Psalms 82:6 to point out that the Jewish law stated that to all who the word of God came were gods. If that be there law, then how could it be blasphemy to call himself the Son of God? Jesus uses this verse as if it means that we are all literally gods and that it is not blasphemy for himself to call himself the Son of God. So Jesus uses the verse in its true context. We are gods and all of us are children of the Most High. Gods beget gods. This is what Paul taught in the book of Acts:

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

We are the literal offspring of our Father in Heaven. We are his spirit children.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

As the literal offspring of God, we are gods even children of the Most High:

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Were you born of a virgin? NO but my spirit and yours was born of heavenly parents.

Is God your literal father. YES He is the literal Father of my spirit.

Have you performed miracles like Jesus did? NO. Why would that matter?

Are you a god right now? YES According to the words of Jesus. See John 10:34 and Psalms 82:6

Because Jesus didn't ask, "can ye become gods?" Jesus asked, "Ye are gods?" with a little "g." NO. Jesus simply asked the Jews if was not written in their law that He said, "Ye are gods". He wasn't asking if the were gods but was pointing out to them that their very law has their God stating that "Ye are gods". See Psalms 82:6 above for what Jesus was pointing out to the Jews. He wasn't asking if they were gods but was asking if it was not written in their law that he said, "Ye are gods". The context of John 10 clearly tells us that by the way it is used, that Jesus literally meant "gods".

It's because Psalm 82 is referring to men. It's a rebuke against man. Psalm 82 never claimed men are literal gods.

Jesus never said they are gods. And he certainly never said you will become gods like your dogma teaches. No one was fully God and fully man except for Christ. You are fully man. You can't use Jesus as your analog.

 

[Cougarbear]

Jesus wasn't discussing men becoming Gods. I suggest you read what they were discussing for context.

The context was all about a man becoming a god. The religious leaders were trying to trap him because he said he was the Son of God and the Lord God who spoke with Moses. That's why they called him a blasphemer. Look at it from what the people were saying about his message. That's the context. The context is no man can be a god, ever. And, Jesus reminded them that he said in their law (scriptures) they too all are gods. What you have to do from there is reason logically why he said that. He said that because when Adam partook of the fruit then knew good from evil, he became a god. God said "Like one of us" in Genesis. Then, you have to go back to the context Jesus was reciting from, Psalms 82:6, "Ye are gods, AND CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH." We can increase in knowledge and righteousness to the point of being given the power, authority, the characteristics and attributes of the Father and the Son. Matthew said "be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. And, that we would have many mansions in heaven as well. So, when you speak of context, there are many pages of scripture in the Bible that have to match up. Your idea isn't matching up.