Zone1 Are Trinitarians and LDS Polytheists?

[Cougarbear]

Latter-day Saints believe Jesus was born of a virgin, Mary, and that God the Father is the literal father of Jesus Christ, right?

Were you born of a virgin? Was God the Father your literal father? I'm guessing the answer to both of those questions is no. So setting aside John 10:34 doesn't mean what you think it means, how can you make the comparison from Jesus to you when you were not born of a virgin and God the Father is not your literal father?

Yes, God the Father is my spirits literal Father. He is the Father of all spirits. The Bible also says this too. We are all children of our Heavenly Father because our Heavenly Parents had us in spirit form first. That's why we call each other brothers and sisters in the Lord as the Lord is our spirit brother too.
Adam and Eve are our first earthly parents. Grand, grand, grand, grand..........parents. Jesus too. That's why Jesus is not the ancient of days. He is Adam's grandchild through Mary but not through Joseph. He is Heavenly Father's child. That's why when you see Jesus, you see the Father in him.
The scriptures give an account of this, don't they. The Holy Ghost came over Mary, didn't he? Didn't he? But, the Holy Ghost would not have a physical earthly sperm. He's a Spirit. So, how did the egg become inseminated? You do know that she was pregnant for 9 months. The baby Jesus grew inside her until birth. That's how it works. The only way then is if Heavenly Father has sperm. But, for that, he would need to be a human man glorified and eternal. The Holy Ghost came over Mary with a sperm and did what we know to be true, in vitro fertilized Mary. So, only Jesus is the literal Son of the Father.

 

[Cougarbear]

Try it in Hebrew and Aramaic. Keep oxen in mind.

Oxen is beyond what you understand, correct? You can understand yourself becoming a god, so you conclude that is what Jesus must have meant.

If you were God and told me I’m a god, what would happen if I called you a liar? That’s what you are doing, calling Jesus a liar. He said ye are gods. Why can’t you believe him?

 

[Trickster]

The definition of monotheism is belief in one God, not worship of one of a number of Gods.

If you want to look at it from that perspective, yes, then LDS are polytheists.

 

[Trickster]

If you were God and told me I’m a god, what would happen if I called you a liar? That’s what you are doing, calling Jesus a liar. He said ye are gods. Why can’t you believe him?

Did the plates lie about... Ehm.... different people's different skintones?

 

[ding]

The context was all about a man becoming a god. The religious leaders were trying to trap him because he said he was the Son of God and the Lord God who spoke with Moses. That's why they called him a blasphemer. Look at it from what the people were saying about his message. That's the context. The context is no man can be a god, ever. And, Jesus reminded them that he said in their law (scriptures) they too all are gods. What you have to do from there is reason logically why he said that. He said that because when Adam partook of the fruit then knew good from evil, he became a god. God said "Like one of us" in Genesis. Then, you have to go back to the context Jesus was reciting from, Psalms 82:6, "Ye are gods, AND CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH." We can increase in knowledge and righteousness to the point of being given the power, authority, the characteristics and attributes of the Father and the Son. Matthew said "be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. And, that we would have many mansions in heaven as well. So, when you speak of context, there are many pages of scripture in the Bible that have to match up. Your idea isn't matching up.

Incorrect. The context was Jesus defending himself from a charge of blaspheme. It isn't the big reveal you think it is.

 

[ding]

Yes, God the Father is my spirits literal Father. He is the Father of all spirits. The Bible also says this too. We are all children of our Heavenly Father because our Heavenly Parents had us in spirit form first. That's why we call each other brothers and sisters in the Lord as the Lord is our spirit brother too.
Adam and Eve are our first earthly parents. Grand, grand, grand, grand..........parents. Jesus too. That's why Jesus is not the ancient of days. He is Adam's grandchild through Mary but not through Joseph. He is Heavenly Father's child. That's why when you see Jesus, you see the Father in him.
The scriptures give an account of this, don't they. The Holy Ghost came over Mary, didn't he? Didn't he? But, the Holy Ghost would not have a physical earthly sperm. He's a Spirit. So, how did the egg become inseminated? You do know that she was pregnant for 9 months. The baby Jesus grew inside her until birth. That's how it works. The only way then is if Heavenly Father has sperm. But, for that, he would need to be a human man glorified and eternal. The Holy Ghost came over Mary with a sperm and did what we know to be true, in vitro fertilized Mary. So, only Jesus is the literal Son of the Father.

Jesus isn't your analog for becoming a god. Psalms 82 doesn't say men are gods. And Jesus wasn't declaring you are a god.

 

[Votto]

I think polygamy is very weird and have my opinions about why the Church of LDS originally permitted it, but I would not call it "unfair". That is a strange framing... Although one could argue it is unfair women could not have multiple Brother Husbands.

You think it is weird?

Is that why the state does not recognize the multiple marriages?

Do you agree with the state preventing them from all legally being married?

If so, on what basis other than it is just "weird"?

 

[Meriweather]

If you were God and told me I’m a god, what would happen if I called you a liar? That’s what you are doing, calling Jesus a liar. He said ye are gods. Why can’t you believe him?

You believe your interpretation of the English translation of the original Hebrew. Let's go back to the original language. In the original language it is God, Elohim, the Almighty--and is understood as such. "gods" (lower case) are the human leaders among mankind, often the elite in society--therefore "gods". In Hebrew context is everything, it has to be, as (compared to English) Hebrew has very few words.

Contrast this with Peter speaking of sharing in God's divinity, His divine nature--escaping the corruption of human nature.

Note the context in the LDS favored passage to assert their point. Jesus is saying he is doing the work of God, and in Hebrew/Aramaic he brings up the picture of yoked oxen. He quotes the Psalm where God and the "leaders of mankind" (English translation "gods") are working (yoked) together. Note that the "gods" (lower case) rely on the power and experience of God (upper case). Jesus was pointing out that his own powerful works proves the point he was yoked with God (note the capitalization). In other words, if his critics understood the concept of their ancestors being yoked with God, why couldn't they understand, through his works and miracles, Jesus own yoke (connection) with God?

I am not attempting the impossible of changing your mind. LDS have convinced themselves they will become gods and nothing will change this as long as they cling to English words and the promise they read into these English words. I am simply pointing out why those not of your faith do not see it your way. Mortal man is not yoked with God in the same way Jesus is. However (again see the passage in Peter), we are assured we are invited to share in God's divinity, thereby escaping the corruption of human nature.

 

[Trickster]

You think it is weird?

Is that why the state does not recognize the multiple marriages?

Do you agree with the state preventing them from all legally being married?

If so, on what basis other than it is just "weird"?

I have not thlought of this too much. What do you think?

 

[Meriweather]

If you want to look at it from that perspective, yes, then LDS are polytheists.

It's the definition of monotheism, used down through the ages. The etymology is from the Greek meaning belief in a single God.

Perhaps those of the LDS faith will provide another word to signify their worship of a single God. They can argue monotheism word lacks the precision of those less educated early Greeks; that their own word, will be from their better educated modern minds and therefore has the greater accuracy. Toss in this word is brought to them through guidance by their LDS prophets, and voila...

 

[Cougarbear]

Did the plates lie about... Ehm.... different people's different skintones?

Nope. Have you actually read the book? You should also know that Hispanics gravitate to the Church knowing this and are faithful members. Now read the book before commenting.

 

[Cougarbear]

Incorrect. The context was Jesus defending himself from a charge of blaspheme. It isn't the big reveal you think it is.

Ignorance is bliss. Another book you common that you haven’t read.

 

[Cougarbear]

Jesus isn't your analog for becoming a god. Psalms 82 doesn't say men are gods. And Jesus wasn't declaring you are a god.

What was he declaring people as then. The scriptures say otherwise. You simply don’t understand what God is. Jesus said twice you are gods. He and the Father said we became as they (gods) are. This doesn’t mean I worship you nor pray to the Father in your name. It means I know good from evil which is foundational for being a god.
Being polytheistic means praying TO anyone else besides the Father. And, doing so in any other NAME than Jesus Christ (son). Therefore, LDS are Monotheistic by definition.

 

[Trickster]

Nope. Have you actually read the book? You should also know that Hispanics gravitate to the Church knowing this and are faithful members. Now read the book before commenting.

Joseph Smit's and Young's teachings were racist though, right?

 

[Cougarbear]

You believe your interpretation of the English translation of the original Hebrew. Let's go back to the original language. In the original language it is God, Elohim, the Almighty--and is understood as such. "gods" (lower case) are the human leaders among mankind, often the elite in society--therefore "gods". In Hebrew context is everything, it has to be, as (compared to English) Hebrew has very few words.

Contrast this with Peter speaking of sharing in God's divinity, His divine nature--escaping the corruption of human nature.

Note the context in the LDS favored passage to assert their point. Jesus is saying he is doing the work of God, and in Hebrew/Aramaic he brings up the picture of yoked oxen. He quotes the Psalm where God and the "leaders of mankind" (English translation "gods") are working (yoked) together. Note that the "gods" (lower case) rely on the power and experience of God (upper case). Jesus was pointing out that his own powerful works proves the point he was yoked with God (note the capitalization). In other words, if his critics understood the concept of their ancestors being yoked with God, why couldn't they understand, through his works and miracles, Jesus own yoke (connection) with God?

I am not attempting the impossible of changing your mind. LDS have convinced themselves they will become gods and nothing will change this as long as they cling to English words and the promise they read into these English words. I am simply pointing out why those not of your faith do not see it your way. Mortal man is not yoked with God in the same way Jesus is. However (again see the passage in Peter), we are assured we are invited to share in God's divinity, thereby escaping the corruption of human nature.

No, you are simply proving our points. You continue to ignore what GOD said makes us gods (small case). It’s that we should know good from evil. Whether we will inherit all GOD has depends on our choices to follow Jesus Christ correctly. By denying that Jesus has told us we are gods but still learning and always Father’s children, is not following Jesus Christ.
You end with saying we are not yoked with the Father the same way Jesus is because we are currently only corrupted humans. Yet, we can become perfect as Jesus commanded which would yoke us perfectly with the Father. Who is perfect? The Father and the Son. In the resurrection, we can reach perfection in celestial glory. Not terrestrial then. 1Cor. Chapter 15.
You spend too much time believing corrupt human scholars like the JWs instead of the actual words, meditating on them, reading all scripture as one complete context and then praying to know if your interpretation is correct. Some times it is. But on this one, you miss our potential in which God has stated clearly. Lean less on your non-prophet scholars and more on actual prophets of old and today. And, prayer.

 

[onefour1]

From Biblehub's interlinear translation we have Psalm 82:6 Interlinear: I -- I have said, 'Gods ye are, And sons of the Most High -- all of you, which shows the Hebrew from Psalms 82:6. As you can see, It translates to "I said you are gods". The word for "gods" is elohim which means god or gods. To view its usage throughout the Bible, check out this link: Hebrew Concordance: ’ĕ·lō·hîm -- 680 Occurrences . To try and make elohim mean something else in this particular case is absurd.

 

[Cougarbear]

From Biblehub's interlinear translation we have Psalm 82:6 Interlinear: I -- I have said, 'Gods ye are, And sons of the Most High -- all of you, which shows the Hebrew from Psalms 82:6. As you can see, It translates to "I said you are gods". The word for "gods" is elohim which means god or gods. To view its usage throughout the Bible, check out this link: Hebrew Concordance: ’ĕ·lō·hîm -- 680 Occurrences . To try and make elohim mean something else in this particular case is absurd.

It's so weird how so many Christians don't understand their own Trinitarian beliefs. Some say that God cannot be human or would cease to be God. But, then say God came off his throne to become a human, Jesus Christ. It's hilarious and sad at the same time. Then, they trip all over themselves to change the words of the Bible. They use their own scholars to prove their points. Weird.

 

[onefour1]

It's so weird how so many Christians don't understand their own Trinitarian beliefs. Some say that God cannot be human or would cease to be God. But, then say God came off his throne to become a human, Jesus Christ. It's hilarious and sad at the same time. Then, they trip all over themselves to change the words of the Bible. They use their own scholars to prove their points. Weird.

Yes, very weird. Now we are told to think of oxen while reading a verse that has nothing to do with oxen.

 

[jwoodie]

If you believe in one Creator, you are monotheistic. Calling other things or people "gods" is nothing more than wordplay.

 

[Meriweather]

No, you are simply proving our points.

Far from it. But as I said, I had no intention of changing your mind. I was hoping you might understand why Jews and other Christian denominations dismiss your translations/interpretations. You stand by modern English why we acknowledge the original languages. In your interpretation of monotheism, you clearly change the definition to fit your beliefs. I could not care less what Mormons do or believe, but you should at least understand why others dismiss these beliefs.