Cheney Calls for full Release of Memos

[CrimsonWhite]

I said they were hung.

I should have been more specific in my answer to Elvis. They weren't hung for specifically waterboarding, but waterboarding was amongst the things they were tried and hung for.

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

This is the question I have been asking. What can you charge someone with or sentence them to if there is no precedent?

Who wants to charge somebody? I am simply sayingthat it should stop and that it never should have happened in the first place.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

This was sent in by my friend, ...
accountable for any life lost, any and all!

My hope is that none of you have to experience any of your family being kidnapped or captured by any terrorist or enemy of ours anywhere. If this does happen you may have to abandon your ignorant idealistic attitude about any form of torture being unacceptable.

To our intelligence men and women, may God be with you and keep you safe!

your friend sounds like he is certifiable.

On the subject of torture I agree with Alan Dershowitz...torture in 'extraordinary' conditions...extra-ordinary. get IT?

Alan Dershowitz Defends Torture…”in Extraordinary Circumstances” « Clouds, Clocks and Sitting at Tables

 

[Iriemon]

I said they were hung.

I should have been more specific in my answer to Elvis. They weren't hung for specifically waterboarding, but waterboarding was amongst the things they were tried and hung for.

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

This is the question I have been asking. What can you charge someone with or sentence them to if there is no precedent?

The sources I cited created a precedent for the US military to prosecute waterboarding as a war crime. A couple of the articles mentioned the Japanese so accused got 15 years hard labor.

In Vietnam I believe there was a court martial against a US soldier for waterboarding.

I'm not sure what precedents there are in US courts to try US officials for war crimes.

 

[elvis]

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

This is the question I have been asking. What can you charge someone with or sentence them to if there is no precedent?

Who wants to charge somebody? I am simply sayingthat it should stop and that it never should have happened in the first place.

Maybe you don't want to charge someone. But you aren't partisan. Others on this board will be calling for charging and sentencing.

 

[Shadow]

Your link doesn't say waterboarding was not prosecuted, nor does it purport to be an exhaustive list of war crimes or types of torture the Japanese were prosecuted for.

The fact that the US prosecuted and convicted Japanese for war crimes for waterboarding is evidenced by numerous sources.


Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said.

Waterboarding Historically Controversial - washingtonpost.com

In the war crimes tribunals that followed Japan's defeat in World War II, the issue of waterboarding was sometimes raised. In 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.

"All of these trials elicited compelling descriptions of water torture from its victims, and resulted in severe punishment for its perpetrators," writes Evan Wallach in the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law.

Waterboarding: A Tortured History : NPR

Following World War II (1939-1945) American prosecutors convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding Allied prisoners of war. The soldiers were tried as part of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, also known as the Tokyo War Crimes Trials.

Waterboarding - MSN Encarta

Waterboarding was torture when it was used during the Spanish Inquisition; it was torture when it was used on Filipino rebels during the 1890s; it was torture when the Japanese Army used it on prisoners in World War II; it was torture when it was used by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia; and it's torture when CIA officers or others use it on terrorists.

Is Waterboarding Torture? Yes.

After the second world war, US military commissions successfully prosecuted as war criminals several Japanese soldiers who subjected US prisoners to waterboarding.

Cheney endorses simulated drowning | World news | guardian.co.uk

Many more sources can be found with a google search.

An exhausted list of war crimes? How many more do you need to figure out it was the "Murder" part that got them hung?

You are grasping at straws trying to connect the two situations as being the same thing. They clearly are not..

I never claimed anyone was hung for waterboarding. I claimed they were prosecuted and convicted for it and went to jail for it.

According to your article, over 5000 Japanese were tried. There were not all tried for murder.

4400 convicted...1000 executed....aprox same about went on trial and were aquitted.

What's that have to do with anything?

 

[elvis]

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

This is the question I have been asking. What can you charge someone with or sentence them to if there is no precedent?

The sources I cited created a precedent for the US military to prosecute waterboarding as a war crime. A couple of the articles mentioned the Japanese so accused got 15 years hard labor.

In Vietnam I believe there was a court martial against a US soldier for waterboarding.

I'm not sure what precedents there are in US courts to try US officials for war crimes.

Those who got 15 years, had they been charged with anything else?

 

[Iriemon]

An exhausted list of war crimes? How many more do you need to figure out it was the "Murder" part that got them hung?

You are grasping at straws trying to connect the two situations as being the same thing. They clearly are not..

I never claimed anyone was hung for waterboarding.

Then why when asked as to what other attrocities they committed....you said that was an "irrelevant" question? They obviously were not "tried" and "hung" for waterboarding....

They were tried for waterboarding. No one was hung for it to my knowledge. A couple sources stated the penalty for waterboarding was 15 years hard lobor.

 

[Article 15]

An exhausted list of war crimes? How many more do you need to figure out it was the "Murder" part that got them hung?

You are grasping at straws trying to connect the two situations as being the same thing. They clearly are not..

I said they were hung.

I should have been more specific in my answer to Elvis. They weren't hung for specifically waterboarding, but waterboarding was amongst the things they were tried and hung for.

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

Because this isn't a discussion about the atrocities the Japanese committed. This is about waterboarding which happens to be something we tried the Japanese for as a war crime after WWII.

 

[Shadow]

I said they were hung.

I should have been more specific in my answer to Elvis. They weren't hung for specifically waterboarding, but waterboarding was amongst the things they were tried and hung for.

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

Because the other atrocities weren't pertinent to the current discussion.

Obviously...however they are not remotely the same...which you apparently already knew..but is just sounds better to throw this crap out there and see if folks are paying attention...right.

 

[oreo]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Clinton mocks Cheney demand « - Blogs from CNN.com

Cheney told FOX News on Monday that the Obama administration should release classified documents revealing the results of aggressive interrogation techniques, so a more "honest debate" can take place about the efficacy of the practices.

"I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," Cheney told FOX. "I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there, and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was."

Guess what, Dick Cheney? I don't CARE how effective waterboarding is. We're Americans, WE DON'T DO THAT. That is not the way I want my country's secret services to operate. I don't care how effective it is. There are always other ways. If the choice is between having that information, and being a country that uses those kinds of torture tactics, and living without that information and suffering another attack, I would RATHER SUFFER ANOTHER ATTACK than become a country that tortures prisoners.

SO LET ME CLAIRIFY SOMETHING: I just want a YES or NO answer from you. Then we can determine your mindset:

In fact, I want all you liberals that are against WATERBOARDING to answer this question:

Let say someone in your family. Someone that you love more than life--is kidnapped by a terrorist organization. The CIA captures one of them--& they are 100% certain that he knows where your loved one is. This terrorist has told you & the CIA that your loved one only has hours to live. You give him another donut & cup of coffee & all he is doing--is sitting there with this big 's...t eating grin on his face watching those minutes tick by.

Would you tell the CIA not to waterboard this terrorist to save your loved ones life? Answer only YES or NO.

If you answer YES--you're so full of s...t it's coming out your ears. You would be calling BARACK OBAMA & ERIC HOLDER begging THEM--to authorize the waterboarding of this terrorist.

If you then agree to the waterboarding in this instance--then what we can assume that you're O.K. with it--when it comes to saving someone you love, & are only against it when others use this enhanced technic to save their loved ones.

 

[Article 15]

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

This is the question I have been asking. What can you charge someone with or sentence them to if there is no precedent?

I am simply sayingthat it should stop and that it never should have happened in the first place.

Same here. I don't want to see Condi and Cheney on trial for this.

 

[elvis]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Clinton mocks Cheney demand « - Blogs from CNN.com

Cheney told FOX News on Monday that the Obama administration should release classified documents revealing the results of aggressive interrogation techniques, so a more "honest debate" can take place about the efficacy of the practices.

"I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," Cheney told FOX. "I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there, and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was."

Guess what, Dick Cheney? I don't CARE how effective waterboarding is. We're Americans, WE DON'T DO THAT. That is not the way I want my country's secret services to operate. I don't care how effective it is. There are always other ways. If the choice is between having that information, and being a country that uses those kinds of torture tactics, and living without that information and suffering another attack, I would RATHER SUFFER ANOTHER ATTACK than become a country that tortures prisoners.

SO LET ME CLAIRIFY SOMETHING: I just want a YES or NO answer from you. Then we can determine your mindset: In fact, I want all you liberals that are against WATERBOARDING to answer this question:

Let say someone in your family. Someone that you love more than life--is kidnapped by a terrorist organization. The CIA captures one of them--& they are 100% certain that he knows where your loved one is. This terrorist has told you & the CIA that your loved one only has hours to live. You give him another donut & cup of coffee & all he is doing--is sitting there with this big 's...t eating grin on his face watching those minutes tick by.

Would you tell the CIA not to waterboard this terrorist to save your loved
ones life? Answer only YES or NO

If you answer NO--you're so full of s...t it's coming out your ears.

do you think John McCain is a liberal? It's not just the liberals who are against waterboarding.

 

[Iriemon]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Clinton mocks Cheney demand « - Blogs from CNN.com

Cheney told FOX News on Monday that the Obama administration should release classified documents revealing the results of aggressive interrogation techniques, so a more "honest debate" can take place about the efficacy of the practices.

"I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," Cheney told FOX. "I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there, and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was."

Guess what, Dick Cheney? I don't CARE how effective waterboarding is. We're Americans, WE DON'T DO THAT. That is not the way I want my country's secret services to operate. I don't care how effective it is. There are always other ways. If the choice is between having that information, and being a country that uses those kinds of torture tactics, and living without that information and suffering another attack, I would RATHER SUFFER ANOTHER ATTACK than become a country that tortures prisoners.

SO LET ME CLAIRIFY SOMETHING: I just want a YES or NO answer from you. Then we can determine your mindset: In fact, I want all you liberals that are against WATERBOARDING to answer this question:

Let say someone in your family. Someone that you love more than life--is kidnapped by a terrorist organization. The CIA captures one of them--& they are 100% certain that he knows where your loved one is. This terrorist has told you & the CIA that your loved one only has hours to live. You give him another donut & cup of coffee & all he is doing--is sitting there with this big 's...t eating grin on his face watching those minutes tick by.

Would you tell the CIA not to waterboard this terrorist to save your loved ones life? Answer only YES or NO.

If you answer YES--you're so full of s...t it's coming out your ears.

This same question was addressed and discussed in detail earlier in this thread, or the companion "CIA confirms" one that has been running today as well. I'm not going to regurigate the same stuff. Basically I would do it personally, I would not authorize to be a law. I would personally break the law. I'd most likely ask the CIA to do it if that was the only option.

 

[Iriemon]

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

Because the other atrocities weren't pertinent to the current discussion.

Obviously...however they are not remotely the same...which you apparently already knew..but is just sounds better to throw this crap out there and see if folks are paying attention...right.

What the hell are you talking about. I never threw that crap out.

 

[Article 15]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Clinton mocks Cheney demand « - Blogs from CNN.com

Cheney told FOX News on Monday that the Obama administration should release classified documents revealing the results of aggressive interrogation techniques, so a more "honest debate" can take place about the efficacy of the practices.

"I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," Cheney told FOX. "I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there, and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was."

Guess what, Dick Cheney? I don't CARE how effective waterboarding is. We're Americans, WE DON'T DO THAT. That is not the way I want my country's secret services to operate. I don't care how effective it is. There are always other ways. If the choice is between having that information, and being a country that uses those kinds of torture tactics, and living without that information and suffering another attack, I would RATHER SUFFER ANOTHER ATTACK than become a country that tortures prisoners.

SO LET ME CLAIRIFY SOMETHING: I just want a YES or NO answer from you. Then we can determine your mindset: In fact, I want all you liberals that are against WATERBOARDING to answer this question:

Let say someone in your family. Someone that you love more than life--is kidnapped by a terrorist organization. The CIA captures one of them--& they are 100% certain that he knows where your loved one is. This terrorist has told you & the CIA that your loved one only has hours to live. You give him another donut & cup of coffee & all he is doing--is sitting there with this big 's...t eating grin on his face watching those minutes tick by.

Would you tell the CIA not to waterboard this terrorist to save your loved ones life? Answer only YES or NO.

If you answer YES--you're so full of s...t it's coming out your ears. If you then agree to the waterboarding in this instance--then what we can assume is that you're O.K. with it--when it comes to saving someone you love, & are only against when others use this enhanced technic to save theirs.

Appeal to emotion.

You can use that logic to justify almost anything.

Just ask Hitler.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Clinton mocks Cheney demand « - Blogs from CNN.com

Cheney told FOX News on Monday that the Obama administration should release classified documents revealing the results of aggressive interrogation techniques, so a more "honest debate" can take place about the efficacy of the practices.

"I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," Cheney told FOX. "I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there, and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was."

Guess what, Dick Cheney? I don't CARE how effective waterboarding is. We're Americans, WE DON'T DO THAT. That is not the way I want my country's secret services to operate. I don't care how effective it is. There are always other ways. If the choice is between having that information, and being a country that uses those kinds of torture tactics, and living without that information and suffering another attack, I would RATHER SUFFER ANOTHER ATTACK than become a country that tortures prisoners.

SO LET ME CLAIRIFY SOMETHING: I just want a YES or NO answer from you. Then we can determine your mindset:

In fact, I want all you liberals that are against WATERBOARDING to answer this question:

Let say someone in your family. Someone that you love more than life--is kidnapped by a terrorist organization. The CIA captures one of them--& they are 100% certain that he knows where your loved one is. This terrorist has told you & the CIA that your loved one only has hours to live. You give him another donut & cup of coffee & all he is doing--is sitting there with this big 's...t eating grin on his face watching those minutes tick by.

Would you tell the CIA not to waterboard this terrorist to save your loved ones life? Answer only YES or NO.

If you answer YES--you're so full of s...t it's coming out your ears. You would be calling BARACK OBAMA & ERIC HOLDER begging THEM--to authorize the waterboarding of this terrorist.

If you then agree to the waterboarding in this instance--then what we can assume that you're O.K. with it--when it comes to saving someone you love, & are only against it when others use this enhanced technic to save their loved ones.

I am not liberal and I am against waterboarding. What does that say about you argument there fruitcake.

 

[elvis]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Clinton mocks Cheney demand « - Blogs from CNN.com



Guess what, Dick Cheney? I don't CARE how effective waterboarding is. We're Americans, WE DON'T DO THAT. That is not the way I want my country's secret services to operate. I don't care how effective it is. There are always other ways. If the choice is between having that information, and being a country that uses those kinds of torture tactics, and living without that information and suffering another attack, I would RATHER SUFFER ANOTHER ATTACK than become a country that tortures prisoners.

SO LET ME CLAIRIFY SOMETHING: I just want a YES or NO answer from you. Then we can determine your mindset: In fact, I want all you liberals that are against WATERBOARDING to answer this question:

Let say someone in your family. Someone that you love more than life--is kidnapped by a terrorist organization. The CIA captures one of them--& they are 100% certain that he knows where your loved one is. This terrorist has told you & the CIA that your loved one only has hours to live. You give him another donut & cup of coffee & all he is doing--is sitting there with this big 's...t eating grin on his face watching those minutes tick by.

Would you tell the CIA not to waterboard this terrorist to save your loved ones life? Answer only YES or NO.

If you answer YES--you're so full of s...t it's coming out your ears. If you then agree to the waterboarding in this instance--then what we can assume is that you're O.K. with it--when it comes to saving someone you love, & are only against when others use this enhanced technic to save theirs.

Appeal to emotion.

You can use that logic to justify almost anything.

Just ask Hitler.

He only wants the liberals that are against waterboarding to answer. not the conservatives.

 

[Shadow]

I never claimed anyone was hung for waterboarding.

Then why when asked as to what other attrocities they committed....you said that was an "irrelevant" question? They obviously were not "tried" and "hung" for waterboarding....

They were tried for waterboarding. No one was hung for it to my knowledge. A couple sources stated the penalty for waterboarding was 15 years hard lobor.

A form of waterboarding the USA does not use. Where the person is hung with his feet in the air while water is poured in his nostrils to make him pass out. However that was again,not all they were tired for.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

Because the other atrocities weren't pertinent to the current discussion.

Obviously...however they are not remotely the same...which you apparently already knew..but is just sounds better to throw this crap out there and see if folks are paying attention...right.

Waterboarding was pertinent. This isn't a discussion about Japanese War crimes. They were simply referenced. If the US was lobbing off peoples heads with a guillotine, I would reference Robespierre. Get it? Waterboarding was pertinent. The other shit they did was not.

 

[Article 15]

SO LET ME CLAIRIFY SOMETHING: I just want a YES or NO answer from you. Then we can determine your mindset: In fact, I want all you liberals that are against WATERBOARDING to answer this question:

Let say someone in your family. Someone that you love more than life--is kidnapped by a terrorist organization. The CIA captures one of them--& they are 100% certain that he knows where your loved one is. This terrorist has told you & the CIA that your loved one only has hours to live. You give him another donut & cup of coffee & all he is doing--is sitting there with this big 's...t eating grin on his face watching those minutes tick by.

Would you tell the CIA not to waterboard this terrorist to save your loved ones life? Answer only YES or NO.

If you answer YES--you're so full of s...t it's coming out your ears. If you then agree to the waterboarding in this instance--then what we can assume is that you're O.K. with it--when it comes to saving someone you love, & are only against when others use this enhanced technic to save theirs.

Appeal to emotion.

You can use that logic to justify almost anything.

Just ask Hitler.

He only wants the liberals that are against waterboarding to answer. not the conservatives.

I'm liberal-ish