Cheney Calls for full Release of Memos

[Shadow]

You are denying that waterboard as testified by Nielsen was one of the forms of torture that the Japanese were prosecuted for war crimes?

Are you still claiming that waterboarding is the "reason" why the Japanese were tried?

Yes it was one of them. It was considered a war crime by the US Govt. That is the point.

They were hung for things such as beheading and,burning people alive..this included babies. Are you actually claiming this is the same thing?

 

[T-Bor]

This was sent in by my friend, Ronald E Borowski, to the Journal Sentinel Editorial Board, in Wisconson. Ron actively helps returning wounded vets learn computer skills they can use in the business world.

This is an open letter to President Barrack Hussein Obama. Your total lack of courage in standing up for and supporting America, Americans and our intelligence agents and our right to use any means available including torture to protect us from harm by our enemies, has now exposed us to further attacks on America and its citizens. Mr. Obama, we Americans are neither the enemy, nor your enemy. We are Americans and have every right to protect ourselves, our country and our way of life, regardless of how others think about us.

My question to you is, how many American lives, or any lives for that matter, are you willing to sacrifice before you come to a realization that evil exists in this world and as President of the United States of America and Commander and Chief, you have the primary duty and responsibility, to protect your citizens. Your lack of courage in giving in to the radical Left and releasing only a partial list of CIA interrogation documents, those defining what we did, and not what beneficial results were received that protected Americans, shows a major flaw in your thinking.

Kindly keep in mind that you are no longer running for president. You are the President of the United States of America. You are not a rock star or celebrity who claims no responsibility for their words or actions. You are our President and your words and actions affect ALL Americans and you will be held accountable by them.

To those reading this that voted for Obama, whether Democrats, Republicans, Independents, liberals, conservatives, Christians or any others, I will hold you all personally responsible if even one American life is lost to any terrorist anywhere. You must shoulder and be accountable for any life lost, any and all!

My hope is that none of you have to experience any of your family being kidnapped or captured by any terrorist or enemy of ours anywhere. If this does happen you may have to abandon your ignorant idealistic attitude about any form of torture being unacceptable.

To our intelligence men and women, may God be with you and keep you safe!

LOL...What are you going to do big boy..come to my house and arrest me? I could care less who dies..as long as it isn't me.. And if it is..I don't have anything to worry about anymore. So go have a big nice glass of STFU and stop posting your nonsense. Your going to hold us personally responsible..LOL...EWWWWWWWWW ..We are so scared.. Who are you holding responsbile for 911 when we weren't torturing? Idiot.

 

[Red Dawn]

This was sent in by my friend, Ronald E Borowski, to the Journal Sentinel Editorial Board, in Wisconson. Ron actively helps returning wounded vets learn computer skills they can use in the business world.

This is an open letter to President Barrack Hussein Obama. Your total lack of courage in standing up for and supporting America, Americans and our intelligence agents and our right to use any means available including torture to protect us from harm by our enemies, has now exposed us to further attacks on America and its citizens. ..........

To our intelligence men and women, may God be with you and keep you safe!

So the republican position is that the only way to protect america, is to torture?


I hope someday you will recognize how silly this sounds, and why bush loving republicans like you are considered immoral and insane dipshits.

 

[Iriemon]

... jackass ...

Ignored.

... dipshit...

...Moron..

Ignored.

 

[Shadow]

Ignored.

... dipshit...

...Moron..

Ignored.

How convienient. What.. you are not going to answer my question?

 

[Iriemon]

Why do you wacko's only bring up waterboarding as if it was the "reason" for the trials...misleading people are you?

Okay, read slowly. We are in a debate about the valdity of the using waterboarding as an enhanced interrogation technique. Waterboard is one of the many things the Japanese were tried for after WW2. Th equestion that is being posed is this: Is it morally acceptable for the US to use a technique that it has prosecuted men for in the past?

No one is saying it is the only thing the Japanese were tried for. We are sayin that it is one of the things we tried them for. Sink in that time? Good, now move along.

Nope,posters have been saying that we tried the Japanese for "waterboarding". Not true. The Japanese went on a murdering spree where they raped,beheaded,dis emboweled,burned people alive,stuck hoses down peoples throats and drowned them etc..etc. Not even close to being the same thing.

Now you folks are trying to compare the two senarios and it is just not credible to me. As the Japanese were hung for murdering hundreds of people including women,children,babies, priests and soldiers.

Japanese War Crime Trials » HistoryNet

Your link doesn't say waterboarding was not prosecuted, nor does it purport to be an exhaustive list of war crimes or types of torture the Japanese were prosecuted for.

The fact that the US prosecuted and convicted Japanese for war crimes for waterboarding is evidenced by numerous sources.


Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said.

Waterboarding Historically Controversial - washingtonpost.com

In the war crimes tribunals that followed Japan's defeat in World War II, the issue of waterboarding was sometimes raised. In 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.

"All of these trials elicited compelling descriptions of water torture from its victims, and resulted in severe punishment for its perpetrators," writes Evan Wallach in the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law.

Waterboarding: A Tortured History : NPR

Following World War II (1939-1945) American prosecutors convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding Allied prisoners of war. The soldiers were tried as part of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, also known as the Tokyo War Crimes Trials.

Waterboarding - MSN Encarta

Waterboarding was torture when it was used during the Spanish Inquisition; it was torture when it was used on Filipino rebels during the 1890s; it was torture when the Japanese Army used it on prisoners in World War II; it was torture when it was used by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia; and it's torture when CIA officers or others use it on terrorists.

Is Waterboarding Torture? Yes.

After the second world war, US military commissions successfully prosecuted as war criminals several Japanese soldiers who subjected US prisoners to waterboarding.

Cheney endorses simulated drowning | World news | guardian.co.uk

Many more sources can be found with a google search.

 

[Iriemon]

Are you still claiming that waterboarding is the "reason" why the Japanese were tried?

Yes it was one of them. It was considered a war crime by the US Govt. That is the point.

They were hung for things such as beheading and,burning people alive..this included babies. Are you actually claiming this is the same thing?

Course not.

 

[Shadow]

Okay, read slowly. We are in a debate about the valdity of the using waterboarding as an enhanced interrogation technique. Waterboard is one of the many things the Japanese were tried for after WW2. Th equestion that is being posed is this: Is it morally acceptable for the US to use a technique that it has prosecuted men for in the past?

No one is saying it is the only thing the Japanese were tried for. We are sayin that it is one of the things we tried them for. Sink in that time? Good, now move along.

Nope,posters have been saying that we tried the Japanese for "waterboarding". Not true. The Japanese went on a murdering spree where they raped,beheaded,dis emboweled,burned people alive,stuck hoses down peoples throats and drowned them etc..etc. Not even close to being the same thing.

Now you folks are trying to compare the two senarios and it is just not credible to me. As the Japanese were hung for murdering hundreds of people including women,children,babies, priests and soldiers.

Japanese War Crime Trials » HistoryNet

Your link doesn't say waterboarding was not prosecuted, nor does it purport to be an exhaustive list of war crimes or types of torture the Japanese were prosecuted for.

The fact that the US prosecuted and convicted Japanese for war crimes for waterboarding is evidenced by numerous sources.


Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said.

Waterboarding Historically Controversial - washingtonpost.com

In the war crimes tribunals that followed Japan's defeat in World War II, the issue of waterboarding was sometimes raised. In 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.

"All of these trials elicited compelling descriptions of water torture from its victims, and resulted in severe punishment for its perpetrators," writes Evan Wallach in the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law.

Waterboarding: A Tortured History : NPR

Following World War II (1939-1945) American prosecutors convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding Allied prisoners of war. The soldiers were tried as part of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, also known as the Tokyo War Crimes Trials.

Waterboarding - MSN Encarta

Waterboarding was torture when it was used during the Spanish Inquisition; it was torture when it was used on Filipino rebels during the 1890s; it was torture when the Japanese Army used it on prisoners in World War II; it was torture when it was used by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia; and it's torture when CIA officers or others use it on terrorists.

Is Waterboarding Torture? Yes.

After the second world war, US military commissions successfully prosecuted as war criminals several Japanese soldiers who subjected US prisoners to waterboarding.

Cheney endorses simulated drowning | World news | guardian.co.uk

Many more sources can be found with a google search.

An exhausted list of war crimes? How many more do you need to figure out it was the "Murder" part that got them hung?

You are grasping at straws trying to connect the two situations as being the same thing. They clearly are not..

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

If you lost a loved one to a terrorist attack and found out later that it could have been avoided had the CIA obtained information using waterboarding, you would care.

Sure. But individuals do not get to set law or administer justice and your assumptions that waterboarding is a good tool needs to be verified/validated before a sensible and honest debate can take place.

 

[Shadow]

You are denying that waterboard as testified by Nielsen was one of the forms of torture that the Japanese were prosecuted for war crimes?

What happened to the Japanese who performed the waterboarding, and was that all those individuals were tried for?

They were convicted I believe. Your second question is irrelevant.

Not irrelevant...

They murdered hundreds of people by many horrific means. You are clearly being dishonest.

 

[Article 15]

An exhausted list of war crimes? How many more do you need to figure out it was the "Murder" part that got them hung?

You are grasping at straws trying to connect the two situations as being the same thing. They clearly are not..

I said they were hung.

I should have been more specific in my answer to Elvis. They weren't hung for specifically waterboarding, but waterboarding was amongst the things they were tried and hung for.

 

[Vel]

Have you ever lost a child? If you answered 'no', then just try to imagine losing a child. It's difficult if you haven't, but just try. Now let's say it's your daughter, aged 6. She's dead. What would you have done to prevent the loss of her? If you found out later that her death could have been prevented with the right information, say waterboarding that doesn't kill anyone... Again, unless it's personal, it will be difficult to imagine.

In the nicest possible way, you're fucked.

I have kids. One of my greatest fears is losing one of them. I've worked with dozens of families who have, in fact, lost their children to violent crimes.

But, hundreds of thousands of Americans have faced certain death so that we WOULDN'T become what you're advocating.. I'm not going to throw away their sacrifices. This course of action is wrong for us as a nation, no matter what justification you want to offer.

THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THESE MEANS.

You're simply wrong. And, if you would willingly allow this government to engage in torture and tyranny, then you fail to grasp what this country is about, and what our responsibilities are as citizens.

Please, in your own words, define torture. What constitutes torture to you?

 

[Iriemon]

What happened to the Japanese who performed the waterboarding, and was that all those individuals were tried for?

They were convicted I believe. Your second question is irrelevant.

Not irrelevant...

They murdered hundreds of people by many horrific means. You are clearly being dishonest.

I've never claimed or implied otherwise. What statement of mine is dishonest?

The fact that they did other horrific things is not relevant to the point that the US Govt prosecuted them for war crimes for waterboarding torture.

 

[Iriemon]

Nope,posters have been saying that we tried the Japanese for "waterboarding". Not true. The Japanese went on a murdering spree where they raped,beheaded,dis emboweled,burned people alive,stuck hoses down peoples throats and drowned them etc..etc. Not even close to being the same thing.

Now you folks are trying to compare the two senarios and it is just not credible to me. As the Japanese were hung for murdering hundreds of people including women,children,babies, priests and soldiers.

Japanese War Crime Trials » HistoryNet

Your link doesn't say waterboarding was not prosecuted, nor does it purport to be an exhaustive list of war crimes or types of torture the Japanese were prosecuted for.

The fact that the US prosecuted and convicted Japanese for war crimes for waterboarding is evidenced by numerous sources.


Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said.

Waterboarding Historically Controversial - washingtonpost.com

In the war crimes tribunals that followed Japan's defeat in World War II, the issue of waterboarding was sometimes raised. In 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.

"All of these trials elicited compelling descriptions of water torture from its victims, and resulted in severe punishment for its perpetrators," writes Evan Wallach in the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law.

Waterboarding: A Tortured History : NPR

Following World War II (1939-1945) American prosecutors convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding Allied prisoners of war. The soldiers were tried as part of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, also known as the Tokyo War Crimes Trials.

Waterboarding - MSN Encarta

Waterboarding was torture when it was used during the Spanish Inquisition; it was torture when it was used on Filipino rebels during the 1890s; it was torture when the Japanese Army used it on prisoners in World War II; it was torture when it was used by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia; and it's torture when CIA officers or others use it on terrorists.

Is Waterboarding Torture? Yes.

After the second world war, US military commissions successfully prosecuted as war criminals several Japanese soldiers who subjected US prisoners to waterboarding.

Cheney endorses simulated drowning | World news | guardian.co.uk

Many more sources can be found with a google search.

An exhausted list of war crimes? How many more do you need to figure out it was the "Murder" part that got them hung?

You are grasping at straws trying to connect the two situations as being the same thing. They clearly are not..

I never claimed anyone was hung for waterboarding. I claimed they were prosecuted and convicted for it and went to jail for it.

According to your article, over 5000 Japanese were tried. There were not all tried for murder.

 

[Shadow]

An exhausted list of war crimes? How many more do you need to figure out it was the "Murder" part that got them hung?

You are grasping at straws trying to connect the two situations as being the same thing. They clearly are not..

I said they were hung.

I should have been more specific in my answer to Elvis. They weren't hung for specifically waterboarding, but waterboarding was amongst the things they were tried and hung for.

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

 

[Shadow]

Your link doesn't say waterboarding was not prosecuted, nor does it purport to be an exhaustive list of war crimes or types of torture the Japanese were prosecuted for.

The fact that the US prosecuted and convicted Japanese for war crimes for waterboarding is evidenced by numerous sources.


Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said.

Waterboarding Historically Controversial - washingtonpost.com

In the war crimes tribunals that followed Japan's defeat in World War II, the issue of waterboarding was sometimes raised. In 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.

"All of these trials elicited compelling descriptions of water torture from its victims, and resulted in severe punishment for its perpetrators," writes Evan Wallach in the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law.

Waterboarding: A Tortured History : NPR

Following World War II (1939-1945) American prosecutors convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding Allied prisoners of war. The soldiers were tried as part of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, also known as the Tokyo War Crimes Trials.

Waterboarding - MSN Encarta

Waterboarding was torture when it was used during the Spanish Inquisition; it was torture when it was used on Filipino rebels during the 1890s; it was torture when the Japanese Army used it on prisoners in World War II; it was torture when it was used by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia; and it's torture when CIA officers or others use it on terrorists.

Is Waterboarding Torture? Yes.

After the second world war, US military commissions successfully prosecuted as war criminals several Japanese soldiers who subjected US prisoners to waterboarding.

Cheney endorses simulated drowning | World news | guardian.co.uk

Many more sources can be found with a google search.

An exhausted list of war crimes? How many more do you need to figure out it was the "Murder" part that got them hung?

You are grasping at straws trying to connect the two situations as being the same thing. They clearly are not..

I never claimed anyone was hung for waterboarding.

Then why when asked as to what other attrocities they committed....you said that was an "irrelevant" question? They obviously were not "tried" and "hung" for waterboarding....

 

[elvis]

An exhausted list of war crimes? How many more do you need to figure out it was the "Murder" part that got them hung?

You are grasping at straws trying to connect the two situations as being the same thing. They clearly are not..

I said they were hung.

I should have been more specific in my answer to Elvis. They weren't hung for specifically waterboarding, but waterboarding was amongst the things they were tried and hung for.

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

This is the question I have been asking. What can you charge someone with or sentence them to if there is no precedent?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

An exhausted list of war crimes? How many more do you need to figure out it was the "Murder" part that got them hung?

You are grasping at straws trying to connect the two situations as being the same thing. They clearly are not..

I said they were hung.

I should have been more specific in my answer to Elvis. They weren't hung for specifically waterboarding, but waterboarding was amongst the things they were tried and hung for.

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

Because the other atrocities weren't pertinent to the current discussion.

 

[Iriemon]

An exhausted list of war crimes? How many more do you need to figure out it was the "Murder" part that got them hung?

You are grasping at straws trying to connect the two situations as being the same thing. They clearly are not..

I said they were hung.

I should have been more specific in my answer to Elvis. They weren't hung for specifically waterboarding, but waterboarding was amongst the things they were tried and hung for.

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

No. No one is debating that the other attrocities are war crimes or torture.

The issue is wether waterboarding is torture.

 

[elvis]

I said they were hung.

I should have been more specific in my answer to Elvis. They weren't hung for specifically waterboarding, but waterboarding was amongst the things they were tried and hung for.

Why don't you folks point out the other attrocities that are much much worse then? Since you "know" they weren't hung specifically for "waterboarding"? Misleading people?

Because the other atrocities weren't pertinent to the current discussion.

As far as sentencing, is there a precedent for waterboarding?