Cheney Calls for full Release of Memos

[Ravi]

War is a rotten business, you either get down and get dirty or you lose a lot of people and lose eventually everything.

Muslim terrorists consider this war of the first order, holy jihad.

Make your choice.

Does that mean you think torture should be legal? I like my idea the best...keep it illegal and if it is used to stop an immediate threat justify it.
The problem with making it legal is that you give the government too much power to interpret when it can be used. Even if you have someone making the decision...who gets to decide?

I've never understood this willingness of "conservatives" to give the government this kind of power while they balk at so many other government powers.

it seems to me you and i have the same idea regarding this topic...

i think you will find most who "support" torture do not support it for everything, only for the most exigent and dangerous situations like what you are talking about.

Maybe most of us are having a difficult time explaining what we mean. But, yes, I think we are on the same page if you agree that anyone that tortures should be able to explain credibly why it was done and that it shouldn't be legalized.

 

[catzmeow]

No more of these, all the justifaction I need.

I don't believe that's sufficient for us to accept that because xeno wants it, it should happen.

9/11 was terrible. But, worse would be allowing it to change us from a free society to one that embraces tyranny.

I have numerous friends who were on the scene on 9.11 as rescuers. None of them believe we should use torture.

So, try another reason.

 

[Xenophon]

No more of these, all the justifaction I need.

I don't believe that's sufficient for us to accept that because xeno wants it, it should happen.

9/11 was terrible. But, worse would be allowing it to change us from a free society to one that embraces tyranny.

I have numerous friends who were on the scene on 9.11 as rescuers. None of them believe we should use torture.

So, try another reason.

I was there, and stood in the pit three straight years while they read the names.

Not ONE of those fire fighters or policemen would life one finger to stop anything being done to kalid Sheik mohammid.

Try again.

 

[Shadow]

THE DANIEL PEARL BEHEADING VIDEO

Graphic, but fast. Frankly, there are worse ways to die.

I sure as hell can't think of any.. other than burning to death or jumping from 110 stories to my death. I can't for the life of me understand why you lefties wish that on your fellow countrymen.. cause you know the terrorists want to do it bigger and badder.. but you choose to be "good"

Probably because they believe that something like 9-11 will never happen to them or their loved ones. It's a lot easier to be all "moral" over a what if,with a faceless nameless person attached it.

I would have no problem waterboarding,putting bugs on or bitch slapping some wackjob who was harming or threatening to harm my children or family members. If waterboarding a terrorist to have prevented 9-11 was an option then so be it,I have no problem with any administration doing whatever it takes to keep American's safe...

I also think the thing with Obama being "above it all" is a bunch of political BS anyway. Several Dems in congress knew about these tactics,were briefed on them and gave the A.OK. Now all of a sudden it is "bad". Nope not buying it. This administration and the left are just out for revenge against the previous administration. Notice they have no problem ruining the lives of people they disagree with. But make a terrorits "scared" and all their panties bunch up their ass.

 

[WillowTree]

No more of these, all the justifaction I need.

I don't believe that's sufficient for us to accept that because xeno wants it, it should happen.

9/11 was terrible. But, worse would be allowing it to change us from a free society to one that embraces tyranny.

I have numerous friends who were on the scene on 9.11 as rescuers. None of them believe we should use torture.

So, try another reason.

We don't have to keep digging to find a reason that satisfies you. We know that's an impossible task.. You have made your position clear.. We can die by the millions so you can look like the good guy in the white hat.. thanks for our glorious sanctimonious deaths,, but no thanks.

 

[WillowTree]

Graphic, but fast. Frankly, there are worse ways to die.

I sure as hell can't think of any.. other than burning to death or jumping from 110 stories to my death. I can't for the life of me understand why you lefties wish that on your fellow countrymen.. cause you know the terrorists want to do it bigger and badder.. but you choose to be "good"

Probably because they believe that something like 9-11 will never happen to them or their loved ones. It's a lot easier to be all "moral" over a what if,with a faceless nameless person attached it.

I would have no problem waterboarding,putting bus on or bitch slapping some wackjob who was harming or threatening to harm my children or family members. If waterboarding a terrorist to have prevented 9-11 was an option then so be it,I have no problem with any administration doing whatever it takes to keep American's safe...

I also think the thing with Obama being "above it all" is a bunch of political BS anyway. Several Dems in congress knew about these tactics,were briefed on them and gave the A.OK. Now all of a sudden it is "bad". Nope not buying it. This administration and the left are just out for revenge against the previous administration. Notice they have no problem ruining the lives of people they disagree with. But make a terrorits "scared" and all their panties bunch up their ass.

yep,, check out the headlines on MoveOn.org. funded by George Soros

MoveOn.org: Democracy in Action



and as O'Reilly pointed out tonight.. Eric Holder worker under Janet Reno,, when they put the skids on the FBI and the CIA sharing information..

 

[Shadow]

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about selling out the Bill of Rights.

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about giving a president unlimited powers to put even AMERICANS in a secret prison without access to an attorney, and then torture them.

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about failing to uphold the international treaties on torture that allow US to claim the moral high ground and protect our military service personnel.

WHAT IN THE HELL HAS HAPPENED TO CONSERVATIVISM if these advocates for torture consider themselves the Republican party's self-appointed spokespeople?

Let me clue you idiots up...TORTURE BY ANY GOVERNMENT is not something that a true conservative would endorse.

I am far more frightened of my government having unlimited powers to snoop, imprison and torture than I will ever be afraid of a bunch of unorganized towel-headed criminals.

What is so hard to understand about that?

REAL CONSERVATIVES understand the inherent dangers of giving a political leader impunity from prosecution and coupling that impunity with unlimited powers that violate the Bill of Rights and international law.

It depends on how you define 'torture', water boarding is not torture. No one is advocating real torture of anyone, but it's easier to be irrational than to really talk about the true topic. If they find evidence of real torture, then you would see a different reaction, justifiably so.

It was torture when we tried the Japanese for it after World War II ended.

We didn't try the Japanese for waterboarding. They were sticking hoses down our soldiers throats and KILLING them. Not the same thing. They also did a lot more then that,that they were "tried"for.

 

[Yurt]

No more of these, all the justifaction I need.

I don't believe that's sufficient for us to accept that because xeno wants it, it should happen.

9/11 was terrible. But, worse would be allowing it to change us from a free society to one that embraces tyranny.

I have numerous friends who were on the scene on 9.11 as rescuers. None of them believe we should use torture.

So, try another reason.

great, so using your logic if some would use torture then it is OK....

thanks for playing

 

[Xenophon]

Perhaps some perspective is needed.

This is what Paul tibbits, the man who dropped the A bomb on Japan, had to say about itin an interview in 2007:

Studs Terkel: Do you ever have any second thoughts about the bomb?

Paul Tibbets: Second thoughts? No. Studs, look. Number one, I got into the air corps to defend the United States to the best of my ability. That's what I believe in and that's what I work for. Number two, I'd had so much experience with airplanes. I'd had jobs where there was no particular direction about how you do it and then of course I put this thing together with my own thoughts on how it should be because when I got the directive Iwas to be self-supporting at all times. On the way to the target I was thinking: I can't think of any mistakes I've made. Maybe I did make a mistake: maybe I was too damned assured. At 29 years of age I was so shot in the ass with confidence I didn't think there was anything I couldn't do. Of course, that applied to airplanes and people. So, no, I had no problem with it. I knew we did the right thing because when I knew we'd be doing that I thought, yes, we're going to kill a lot of people, but by God we're going to save a lot of lives. We won't have to invade [Japan].

link here.

The reason I bring this up, is like Tibbits, i understand that sometimes you have to do horrible things to save more lives, the ENEMY forces this choice on you.

If Truman had thought as many do today, no A Bomb would have been dropped, and a million Americans would have been casualties as well as possibly 10 million Japanese.

kill 11 million people, or kill 100,000 and end the war.

That was the choice.

The same applies to treatment of hard core terrorists.

Sit there and talk about high ideals and goals, and the attacks and body count will go up.

Do what has to be done, kill them, and the war ends.

Your choice, easy as that.

 

[Iriemon]

No more of these, all the justifaction I need.

I don't believe that's sufficient for us to accept that because xeno wants it, it should happen.

9/11 was terrible. But, worse would be allowing it to change us from a free society to one that embraces tyranny.

I have numerous friends who were on the scene on 9.11 as rescuers. None of them believe we should use torture.

So, try another reason.

I always found a bit of irony that it is (very generally) usually the conservatives, who often hold themselves out to be tough guys, who are more terrorified of the terrorists. The same ones that have flippantly dismissed 100,000+ dead in Iraq as a cost of freedom, are willing to crawl into the sewer with the terrorists because of the terror of there possibly being another attack.

Freedom isn't free. Part of that means living in a society were there are additional risks. Yeah, there is a little greater chance you might killed. That is the price of freedom.

 

[Iriemon]

Perhaps some perspective is needed.

This is what Paul tibbits, the man who dropped the A bomb on Japan, had to say about itin an interview in 2007:

Studs Terkel: Do you ever have any second thoughts about the bomb?

Paul Tibbets: Second thoughts? No. Studs, look. Number one, I got into the air corps to defend the United States to the best of my ability. That's what I believe in and that's what I work for. Number two, I'd had so much experience with airplanes. I'd had jobs where there was no particular direction about how you do it and then of course I put this thing together with my own thoughts on how it should be because when I got the directive Iwas to be self-supporting at all times. On the way to the target I was thinking: I can't think of any mistakes I've made. Maybe I did make a mistake: maybe I was too damned assured. At 29 years of age I was so shot in the ass with confidence I didn't think there was anything I couldn't do. Of course, that applied to airplanes and people. So, no, I had no problem with it. I knew we did the right thing because when I knew we'd be doing that I thought, yes, we're going to kill a lot of people, but by God we're going to save a lot of lives. We won't have to invade [Japan].

link here.

The reason I bring this up, is like Tibbits, i understand that sometimes you have to do horrible things to save more lives, the ENEMY forces this choice on you.

If Truman had thought as many do today, no A Bomb would have been dropped, and a million Americans would have been casualties as well as possibly 10 million Japanese.

kill 11 million people, or kill 100,000 and end the war.

That was the choice.

The same applies to treatment of hard core terrorists.

Sit there and talk about high ideals and goals, and the attacks and body count will go up.

Do what has to be done, kill them, and the war ends.

Your choice, easy as that.

I disagree. We can torture, lock people away, invade nations on pretext, and do all these things in the name of trying to prevent another attack. But there is no guarantee of success, and these action benefit the terrorist in the long run because of the anti-American attitudes they engender.

We aren't going to win the war on terror by adopting terror tactics ourselves, IMO.

 

[Red Dawn]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Clinton mocks Cheney demand « - Blogs from CNN.com

Cheney told FOX News on Monday that the Obama administration should release classified documents revealing the results of aggressive interrogation techniques, so a more "honest debate" can take place about the efficacy of the practices.

"I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," Cheney told FOX. "I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there, and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was."

Guess what, Dick Cheney? I don't CARE how effective waterboarding is. We're Americans, WE DON'T DO THAT. That is not the way I want my country's secret services to operate. I don't care how effective it is. There are always other ways. If the choice is between having that information, and being a country that uses those kinds of torture tactics, and living without that information and suffering another attack, I would RATHER SUFFER ANOTHER ATTACK than become a country that tortures prisoners.

thank God, a sane conservative.

I pretty sure the dudes who are loving torture (and yes, its mostly dudes who are applauding torture) are the same dudes who pulled wings of insects and tortured cats when they were 12.

 

[WillowTree]

No more of these, all the justifaction I need.

I don't believe that's sufficient for us to accept that because xeno wants it, it should happen.

9/11 was terrible. But, worse would be allowing it to change us from a free society to one that embraces tyranny.

I have numerous friends who were on the scene on 9.11 as rescuers. None of them believe we should use torture.

So, try another reason.

I always found a bit of irony that it is (very generally) usually the conservatives, who often hold themselves out to be tough guys, who are more terrorified of the terrorists. The same ones that have flippantly dismissed 100,000+ dead in Iraq as a cost of freedom, are willing to crawl into the sewer with the terrorists because of the terror of there possibly being another attack.

Freedom isn't free. Part of that means living in a society were there are additional risks. Yeah, there is a little greater chance you might killed. That is the price of freedom.

no jackass, the dead soldiers lying in graves in Normandy pay the price for freedom it damn sure isn't free.

 

[WillowTree]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Clinton mocks Cheney demand « - Blogs from CNN.com

Cheney told FOX News on Monday that the Obama administration should release classified documents revealing the results of aggressive interrogation techniques, so a more "honest debate" can take place about the efficacy of the practices.

"I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," Cheney told FOX. "I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there, and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was."

Guess what, Dick Cheney? I don't CARE how effective waterboarding is. We're Americans, WE DON'T DO THAT. That is not the way I want my country's secret services to operate. I don't care how effective it is. There are always other ways. If the choice is between having that information, and being a country that uses those kinds of torture tactics, and living without that information and suffering another attack, I would RATHER SUFFER ANOTHER ATTACK than become a country that tortures prisoners.

thank God, a sane conservative.

I pretty sure the dudes who are loving torture (and yes, its mostly dudes who are applauding torture) are the same dudes who pulled wings of insects and tortured cats when they were 12.

Dishonest FUCK,, plain and simple

 

[Iriemon]

I don't believe that's sufficient for us to accept that because xeno wants it, it should happen.

9/11 was terrible. But, worse would be allowing it to change us from a free society to one that embraces tyranny.

I have numerous friends who were on the scene on 9.11 as rescuers. None of them believe we should use torture.

So, try another reason.

I always found a bit of irony that it is (very generally) usually the conservatives, who often hold themselves out to be tough guys, who are more terrorified of the terrorists. The same ones that have flippantly dismissed 100,000+ dead in Iraq as a cost of freedom, are willing to crawl into the sewer with the terrorists because of the terror of there possibly being another attack.

Freedom isn't free. Part of that means living in a society were there are additional risks. Yeah, there is a little greater chance you might killed. That is the price of freedom.

... jackass ...

Ignored.

 

[elvis]

Document: Cheney, Rice signed off on interrogation techniques - Yahoo! News

 

[WillowTree]

I always found a bit of irony that it is (very generally) usually the conservatives, who often hold themselves out to be tough guys, who are more terrorified of the terrorists. The same ones that have flippantly dismissed 100,000+ dead in Iraq as a cost of freedom, are willing to crawl into the sewer with the terrorists because of the terror of there possibly being another attack.

Freedom isn't free. Part of that means living in a society were there are additional risks. Yeah, there is a little greater chance you might killed. That is the price of freedom.

... jackass ...

Ignored.

hey DUmmie! you know there is an ignore button,, if you use it you won't have to read what I write!

 

[Iriemon]

Document: Cheney, Rice signed off on interrogation techniques - Yahoo! News

The torture memos were at the direction of Rice and Cheney, along with Ashcroft and Gonzalez? What a group. It wouldn't surprise me, particularly Cheney. Explains why he's so interested in the memos coming out to justify his acts. It will be interesting to see what develops.

 

[Shadow]

I always found a bit of irony that it is (very generally) usually the conservatives, who often hold themselves out to be tough guys, who are more terrorified of the terrorists. The same ones that have flippantly dismissed 100,000+ dead in Iraq as a cost of freedom, are willing to crawl into the sewer with the terrorists because of the terror of there possibly being another attack.

Freedom isn't free. Part of that means living in a society were there are additional risks. Yeah, there is a little greater chance you might killed. That is the price of freedom.

... jackass ...

Ignored.

Hey dipshit..there is an actual "ignore feature" on this board if you don't want to read posts you disagree with. Use it instead of acting out your annoying drama of I'm "above it all"...

Moron..

 

[Red Dawn]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Clinton mocks Cheney demand « - Blogs from CNN.com



Guess what, Dick Cheney? I don't CARE how effective waterboarding is. We're Americans, WE DON'T DO THAT. That is not the way I want my country's secret services to operate. I don't care how effective it is. There are always other ways. If the choice is between having that information, and being a country that uses those kinds of torture tactics, and living without that information and suffering another attack, I would RATHER SUFFER ANOTHER ATTACK than become a country that tortures prisoners.

thank God, a sane conservative.

I pretty sure the dudes who are loving torture (and yes, its mostly dudes who are applauding torture) are the same dudes who pulled wings of insects and tortured cats when they were 12.

Dishonest FUCK,, plain and simple

.
I think you're a dude, at this point.

I don't think I've ever met a member of the fairer sex that loved sadism, and torture like you do. Its almost always dudes with fucked up emotional problems that are sadists.

Why is it that you love torture and sadism?

The sane people here, like Crimson and Cat, recognize what is obvious to the rest of us. Torturing people is flat out immoral, illegal and unamerican.