Cheney Calls for full Release of Memos

[Yurt]

Torturing prisoners does not save a life. Torturing prisoners does not work and is morally wrong.

that is absolutely not true...torturing has saved lives...

I've seen this claim staed a few times, but the only sources for such claims are 1) the DOJ memos which were trying to make a case for why torturing is OK, and 2) Mr. Cheney. Neither source is particularly reliable for this point.

Is there any other source that asserts how lives were saved by the torture that was done?

I've asked this a couple times and not gotten a response.

i'm sure we can get into a pissing match over the reliability of sources, however, there are those in the field who do say it works. you want to dismiss cheney because you don't like him, that is not a smart thing to do as he had access to information you don't know about....why else do you think he wants the full release, he wants the full thing out there since obama made it public...he is not hiding the successes...

and i am not naive enough to say that it has not worked in cases we don't hear about. to claim it never works is naive.

Torture valid as it saves lives, says MI5

TORTURING detainees does help interrogators to obtain evidence that could save lives, according to Dame Eliza Manningham-Buller, the MI5 Director-General.
Torture valid as it saves lives, says MI5 - Times Online

The story
A former CIA agent who participated in interrogations of terror suspects said Tuesday that the controversial interrogation technique of "waterboarding" has saved lives, but he considers the method torture and now opposes its use.

Former CIA operative John Kiriakou also told CNN's "American Morning" that he disagrees with a decision to destroy videotapes of certain interrogations, namely of al Qaeda's Abu Zubayda. Kiriakou made the remarks as two congressional committees prepared to grill CIA Director Michael Hayden on the destruction of the tapes and on "alternative" means of interrogation.
Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' - CNN.com

 

[catzmeow]

and you know that your views are hypocritical and illogical. that is why you lashed out like a child. you would kill to save a life, but you won't cause that person some pain to save a life.

as if killing that person doesn't cause pain. your views are contradictory and you know it. deal with it.

My views are far less contradictory than someone who is trying to overturn the Geneva conventions on treatment of enemy prisoners, and advocate that the U.S. government use torture, aka any means necessary to prevent some amorphous harm.

I have no problem with killing when a scenario requires immediate action. I have a serious problem with torturing captives. In spite of your attempts to prove imminent harm, the scenarios you've postulated DO NOT EXIST.

Putting this power in the hands of a government agency like the CIA, however, and attempting to justify these actions to the world? Shameful. And frankly, frightening.

Your views IN NO WAY correlate with real conservatism, which equates to PROTECTING OUR HISTORIC and CHERISHED INSTITUTIONS such as the bill of rights and our honoring of the Geneva Convention.

 

[catzmeow]

Sorry but i consider the murder of 3000 Americans an act of war.

All the more reason to demonstrate the superiority of our nation by treating their prisoners as POWs, and not stooping to the level of Sadam Hussein in our treatment of prisoners.

Do you get that what happened at Abu Ghraib does not differ from when it was in the hands of Saddam?

What really makes me sick is that I defended our country in that situation. When Abu Ghraib was publicized, I said, "This was an isolated incident, America doesn't DO THAT."

And now we learn that our president signed off on exactly that. That EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED AT ABU GHRAIB was approved by Bush and his cohorts.

I voted for them, and they used their power to forever taint and drag my country through the mud.

And people like you drink the koolaid and pretend that it was justified.

Listen, if we never had to resort to torture like that in the war against the Nazis, there is no justification for using it now, no matter how scared you little girls are in your beds at night with the tales of the Islamic Bogeyman.

Losing what makes America unique is a million times scarier to me than the incredibly obscure and actually hilarious prospect that the Taliban will someday be running things here because we lack the stones to torture people. They can't even run things in their prehistoric little countries.

We only win by REMAINING AMERICA, by being a nation that continues to be a light in a dark, dark world, by keeping America a country worth dying for. If we stoop to their behaviors, THEY HAVE ALREADY WON.

 

[ABikerSailor]

No dipstick......I'm saying that since they used an unapproved (as well as illegal method that doesn't work), that the same thing should be done to them.

THEN we'll see if they understood.

BTW......if there is a God (and I know there is), I hope He puts Cheney, Bush Jr., and RumsFAILED, into Spandau Prison. Just like "The Science of Sleep", I hope they wake up there every night when they go to sleep, and then, get waterboarded 6 times per night.

For the next month.

Sweet dreams assholes..........

 

[WillowTree]

Sorry but i consider the murder of 3000 Americans an act of war.

All the more reason to demonstrate the superiority of our nation by treating their prisoners as POWs, and not stooping to the level of Sadam Hussein in our treatment of prisoners.

Do you get that what happened at Abu Ghraib does not differ from when it was in the hands of Saddam?

What really makes me sick is that I defended our country in that situation. When Abu Ghraib was publicized, I said, "This was an isolated incident, America doesn't DO THAT."

And now we learn that our president signed off on exactly that. That EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED AT ABU GHRAIB was approved by Bush and his cohorts.

I voted for them, and they used their power to forever taint and drag my country through the mud.

And people like you drink the koolaid and pretend that it was justified.

Listen, if we never had to resort to torture like that in the war against the Nazis, there is no justification for using it now, no matter how scared you little girls are in your beds at night with the tales of the Islamic Bogeyman.

Losing what makes America unique is a million times scarier to me than the incredibly obscure and actually hilarious prospect that the Taliban will someday be running things here because we lack the stones to torture people. They can't even run things in their prehistoric little countries.

We only win by REMAINING AMERICA, by being a nation that continues to be a light in a dark, dark world, by keeping America a country worth dying for. If we stoop to their behaviors, THEY HAVE ALREADY WON.

yes,, when you and your children are deader n doornails, I'm sure America's image will mean all the world to you.. yea

 

[catzmeow]

yes,, when you and your children are deader n doornails, I'm sure America's image will mean all the world to you.. yea

OMG, hold me! The big scary Arab men are coming to kill us all in our beds!

 

[Yurt]

Some torture clearly works. Jordan broke the most notorious terrorist of the 1980s, Abu Nidal, by threatening his family. Philippine police reportedly helped crack the 1993 World Trade Center bombings (plus a plot to crash 11 U.S. airliners and kill the pope) by convincing a suspect that they were about to turn him over to the Israelis.

Time To Think About Torture | Print Article | Newsweek.com

 

[Yurt]

the constitution is not a suicide pact....chief justice jackson

you folks "would" sit by and not torture while our country is destroyed...to you, the constitution is a suicide pact then...

 

[catzmeow]

Some torture clearly works. Jordan broke the most notorious terrorist of the 1980s, Abu Nidal, by threatening his family. Philippine police reportedly helped crack the 1993 World Trade Center bombings (plus a plot to crash 11 U.S. airliners and kill the pope) by convincing a suspect that they were about to turn him over to the Israelis.

Time To Think About Torture | Print Article | Newsweek.com

By all means, hold up Jordan and the Philippines as bastions of civil liberties where we'd all want to live.



I get that, in the short term, it might appear that these tactics were effective. And maybe they would be. But in the long run, they would turn us into something that, as a country, I hope we never become.

See, a lot of us get it that the U.S. is hard. It's harder to live here in a lot of other places. You have to listen to people saying things that might get you arrested in other countries. Just on this board, you will daily hear people repeating sentiments that in the UK or Canada or some other European nations would GET YOU ARRESTED and/or prosecuted for human dignity violations. That's tough stuff.

And we are a lot freer here than they are in Israel, or Jordan, or some other countries, too. And with that freedom comes a certain amount of risk.

So, it really does go back to Ben Franklin. People who are willing to give up their freedom for safety don't deserve that freedom at all.

How much freedom are you really willing to give up to eliminate all risk? Because of who we are, the risk will always be there that our very freedom will be used against us by a determined adversary. At some place in your reptilian brain, you have to deal with that. Either we become a place with significantly less freedoms (a place I personally am not willing for us to go), or we deal with the risk like grownups, and accept that it is a part of being who and what we are.

Bear in mind that what you propose is a SIGNIFICANT DEPARTURE from what America was, what America is, and what I hope it always will be. ANd you are doing this based upon a rather insignificant chance that you will personally be victimized.

I'm guessing you don't have a driver's license, either, because driving is VERY VERY DANGEROUS. And, don't even get me started on flying on those scary airplanes. Or taking taxis. Or eating.

Because risk is a part of life, and you will never eliminate all of it.

And when you've thrown suspected (and mind you...these are SUSPECTS, not ADJUDICATED, people) terrorists into hidden prisons in Morocco, and tortured them until they've said whatever it is that you want them to say,

who will be the next group or person to threaten you?

Will it be the veterans who are coming back from Iraq with PTSD? Should we put them somewhere so they don't join up with white nationalists and threaten our national security? Should we do some kind of pre-emptive action to keep them from being bothersome?

And when you've dealt with them, who will be next?

Because, when you start going down that road, where do you stop? When you've lost all reason, and started operating purely based upon the fear of the unthinkable, and you lose your honor and start torturing suspects, what's next? Who's next? And how do you find any safety at all in that world?

I work with gang members. I realize that when I go to work in a dangerous city, and am out with outreach staff in some neighborhood that even the locals don't go into, I may get shot. Most of those kids are strapped, and it is a calculated risk.

But the risk is worth it to me because the job is worth doing. Someone needs to do it, so my kids don't grow up in a world where kids get shot for hubcaps and tennis shoes.

So, when you've turned our government into a clone of a third world banana republic where citizens have no rights, and suspects can be held FOR YEARS without a trial or a right to counsel, how exactly will you explain to your children that once you used to be free, but now you're "safe"?

And, you used them as an excuse for your own cowardice.

 

[Toome]

Not very statesman-like behavior from Madame Secretary Clinton. However, she did stumble upon one truth: if the government is going to release the facts, then it ought to release all the facts and not just those that portray a certain image. Still, the release of these documents will ultimately hurt our national security.

Anyone remember the Church Commission? Took us years to recover from that.

 

[Yurt]

In answer to Yurt's rep question, I don't HAVE to be a bitch, I just enjoy it. And when you are a stupid fucktard, I enjoy it MORE.

you're such a whiny bitch too....good grief, i'm not on here whining about your insulting neg rep....

get a life hypocrite

 

[catzmeow]

In answer to Yurt's rep question, I don't HAVE to be a bitch, I just enjoy it. And when you are a stupid fucktard, I enjoy it MORE.

you're such a whiny bitch too....good grief, i'm not on here whining about your insulting neg rep....

get a life hypocrite

That wasn't whining, you pansy ass, that was enjoyment. You calling anyone a whiny bitch is the ultimate in irony.

p.s. pwned.

 

[Yurt]

Some torture clearly works. Jordan broke the most notorious terrorist of the 1980s, Abu Nidal, by threatening his family. Philippine police reportedly helped crack the 1993 World Trade Center bombings (plus a plot to crash 11 U.S. airliners and kill the pope) by convincing a suspect that they were about to turn him over to the Israelis.

Time To Think About Torture | Print Article | Newsweek.com

By all means, hold up Jordan and the Philippines as bastions of civil liberties where we'd all want to live.



I
And, you used them as an excuse for your own cowardice.

i put that up to counter the claim that torture does NOT work, i was in discussions with someone else....the fact is, torture does work. do try and keep up and stay on track...thanks.

as for cowardice...i'm not the one hiding behind a false moral facade that we are better than some other country...just look at our history dumbass

and i really think you need get out more, you get worked up real easy....

 

[Yurt]

In answer to Yurt's rep question, I don't HAVE to be a bitch, I just enjoy it. And when you are a stupid fucktard, I enjoy it MORE.

you're such a whiny bitch too....good grief, i'm not on here whining about your insulting neg rep....

get a life hypocrite

That wasn't whining, you pansy ass, that was enjoyment. You calling anyone a whiny bitch is the ultimate in irony.

it wasn't whining....yet my talking about you whining is whiny....

hypocritical moronic hack

 

[Yurt]

who here believes the constitution is a suicide pact?

 

[catzmeow]

i put that up to counter the claim that torture does NOT work, i was in discussions with someone else....the fact is, torture does work. do try and keep up and stay on track...thanks.

I'm not the one who has repeated the same debunked, illogical appeal to emotion 20 times. Keep up.

as for cowardice...i'm not the one hiding behind a false moral facade that we are better than some other country...just look at our history dumbass

Great. So, you're down with torturing Indians, and enslaving black folks and the irish, and depriving women of the vote.

So, what are we fighting against, then. Let's just embrace the fact that our history suggests that WE ARE THE TALIBAN.

In Yurt world, that's entirely logical.

and i really think you need get out more, you get worked up real easy....

babycakes, you lack the capacity to make me break a sweat. You're strictly amateur. Debating you is like playing with a mouse. It's entertainment, killing time, nothing more.

It also gives me the opportunity to show how much smarter and more patriotic I am than you armchair heroes, a not insignificant bonus.

 

[Xenophon]

War is a rotten business, you either get down and get dirty or you lose a lot of people and lose eventually everything.

Muslim terrorists consider this war of the first order, holy jihad.

Make your choice.

 

[catzmeow]

Make your choice.

Fear is the mind killer. I choose not to allow fear of them to force me into becoming them.

 

[Xenophon]

Make your choice.

Fear is the mind killer. I choose not to allow fear of them to force me into becoming them.

Death is the body killer.

You either fight to win or you die.

Did you know that waterboarding is a hazing ritual for VMI?

A college prank prevented thousands of dead.

But hey, wouldn't want any fear would we, coffins are so much better.

 

[catzmeow]

it wasn't whining....yet my talking about you whining is whiny....

hypocritical moronic hack

It sounded whiny to me. I own that I am a bitch. Frankly, I feel it is one of my better qualities. If you think you're going to insult me by using that term, that's your mistake.

And, the longer you talk, the whinier you sound, frankly.

You sound a little rattled to me. Do you need an internet break?