Cheney Calls for full Release of Memos

[KittenKoder]

Except it's okay for you to leave out details apparently. Such as the reason for the "trials" was the mass murder of innocent people. And the waterboarding in question, ie that we used on terrorists ...was not the same thing used by the Japanese either.

No what you are doing is trying to steer the focus away from the FACT that the japanese were tried for waterboarding as a war crime. There were many reasons why they were put on trial, one of which was that they were waterboarding people. If it wasn't a war crime and wasn't wrong they wouldn't have included waterboarding in the charges they brought forward. It's really that simple and everything else you are throwing at it is just smoke and mirrors.

What part of "not the same thing" are you having a problem with? Did you actually read the memos Obama released or not?

You're focusing on that one tiny point ... seems like desperation on your part at this point.

 

[Article 15]

Except it's okay for you to leave out details apparently. Such as the reason for the "trials" was the mass murder of innocent people. And the waterboarding in question, ie that we used on terrorists ...was not the same thing used by the Japanese either.

No what you are doing is trying to steer the focus away from the FACT that the japanese were tried for waterboarding as a war crime. There were many reasons why they were put on trial, one of which was that they were waterboarding people. If it wasn't a war crime and wasn't wrong they wouldn't have included waterboarding in the charges they brought forward. It's really that simple and everything else you are throwing at it is just smoke and mirrors.

What part of "not the same thing" are you having a problem with? Did you actually read the memos Obama released or not?

I've skimmed the memos.

Frankly, I don't care whether or not it's "the same thing" as you like to try and frame it. It doesn't matter if somebody shoots someone in the head and kills them or if they stab them in the chest and kill them ... they have still killed somebody and get charged with murder. The same effect was produced ... "the feeling of immenent death" using a waterboarding technique and when that is repeated over and over for any length of time you are torturing somebody plain and simple.

 

[DamnYankee]

Sealybo: You right wingers seem to be really hard on Obama. Is it because he's black? Can't help but wonder.

Can't help but wonder why "left wingers" pull the race card when Obama's POLICIES are disagreed with.

 

[Dr Grump]

That's what I love about threads like this. The right proves just how un-American they truly are and how they only pay lip service to the constitution they claim to hold so dear....

 

[Ravi]

Several Dems signed off on these techiques. Including Pelosi..

And that somehow means everyone should accept it? I don't care if every Democratic politician thinks torture is okay...it isn't and they would be wrong in their thinking just like anyone else, regardless of the political affiliation.

 

[Xenophon]

Some of you amaze me.

Japanese were tried not for 'waterboarding' but for mistreating UNIFORMED servivemen who had surrendered under the Hague convention, which Japan signed.

NONE of them were tried for this technique, they were tried for killing, maiming and starving prisoners.

A great many leagal minds felt the Japanese warcrime trials were actually illeagal, and a number of japanese had in fact been leagally murdered as revenge after WWII.

The Nuremberg trials were and are illeagal under current international law also.

 

[Skull Pilot]

No, the opposite. It wasn't like he ever showed remose that his government ran up $5 trillion in debt after inherited a surplus. Or that his government borrowed $1.4 trillion in the last 12 months before Obama took office. Or that the economy Obama inhereted was tanking fast.

It was like he was Mr. Budget Hawk coming from a government that had closely toed the line on the debt, and now all of a sudden the deficit is a big concern since Obama took office.

Fucking hypocrite is what he is.

hey obama won't show remorse for his "trillion dollar deficits for years to come" either

Nor should he.

When you are fighting deflation, you have to spend.

Also Obama is using honest accounting by including the cost of the two wars in the budget deficit, which Bush refused to do.

Honest? I highly doubt that denying the CBO reports is honest.

 

[WillowTree]

Some of you amaze me.

Japanese were tried not for 'waterboarding' but for mistreating UNIFORMED servivemen who had surrendered under the Hague convention, which Japan signed.

NONE of them were tried for this technique, they were tried for killing, maiming and starving prisoners.

A great many leagal minds felt the Japanese warcrime trials were actually illeagal, and a number of japanese had in fact been leagally murdered as revenge after WWII.

The Nuremberg trials were and are illeagal under current international law also.

They don't amaze me. They are predictable,, they always,, always always, paint their country as the bad guy, even when we don't come anywhere near the levels other countries do they still equivocate our actions to the others. and then call names, then act like they are victims if you call them names back. The truth is the obamalama guy knows this should not go forward but the spineless dood is gonna buckle under pressure.. just like I knew he would..
that's the thanks that President Bush and Condoleeza Rice get for making sure we were not attacked again.. you guys are like dogs shitting in your own house.

 

[catzmeow]

SO LET ME CLAIRIFY SOMETHING: I just want a YES or NO answer from you. Then we can determine your mindset: In fact, I want all you liberals that are against WATERBOARDING to answer this question:

Let say someone in your family. Someone that you love more than life--is kidnapped by a terrorist organization. The CIA captures one of them--& they are 100% certain that he knows where your loved one is. This terrorist has told you & the CIA that your loved one only has hours to live. You give him another donut & cup of coffee & all he is doing--is sitting there with this big 's...t eating grin on his face watching those minutes tick by.

Would you tell the CIA not to waterboard this terrorist to save your loved ones life? Answer only YES or NO.

If you answer YES--you're so full of s...t it's coming out your ears. If you then agree to the waterboarding in this instance--then what we can assume is that you're O.K. with it--when it comes to saving someone you love, & are only against when others use this enhanced technic to save theirs.

The law should not be based upon vigilantism. I work in a law enforcement field, and the law is designed to address worst-case scenarios. We should never allow emotionalism to determine our course.

I am not a liberal, and I am against the use of waterboarding as a standard practice by U.S. agencies, whether my family is involved or not.

 

[WillowTree]

not a libral?

 

[catzmeow]

Why I do not support waterboarding, in a nutshell:

"If the United States was in another conflict, which could easily happen, with another country, and we have allowed that kind of torture to be inflicted on people we hold captive, then there's nothing to prevent that enemy from also torturing American prisoners," John McCain said.

McCain: Japanese Hanged For Waterboarding - CBS News

For ever action, there is an equal and opposite REACTION. If we allow this as an SOP, other nations will use it against us on our armed forces. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

 

[catzmeow]

not a libral?

I voted for W twice. I've told you this before, ON THIS THREAD.

I'm pro-gun
I'm anti-abortion
I'm pro-law enforcement
I'm pro strict penalties for criminals
I'm anti-illegal immigration
I'm pro-military, and I support a strong defense
I'm fiscally conservative

But, you don't actually read other people's posts, do you Willow? You just spout nonsense.

 

[WillowTree]

not a libral?

I voted for W twice. I've told you this before, ON THIS THREAD.

I'm pro-gun
I'm anti-abortion
I'm pro-law enforcement
I'm pro strict penalties for criminals
I'm anti-illegal immigration
I'm pro-military, and I support a strong defense
I'm fiscally conservative

But, you don't actually read other people's posts, do you Willow? You just spout nonsense.

no catz,, I do read them, and I respect your opinions even though I disagree with them,, but as long as you are willing to let millions of us die so you can wear your white hat, you are a libral.

 

[catzmeow]

no catz,, I do read them, and I respect your opinions even though I disagree with them,, but as long as you are willing to let millions of us die so you can wear your white hat, you are a libral.

So, protecting the constitution, the rule of law, and the treaties that help to protect our military service personnel during overseas conflicts = liberal.

Good to know. If that's the case, then I will proudly claim the term.

See, you think that's some kind of slur. But I think that you, and others like you, have irreparably damaged the reputation of conservatism.

So, I guess we're even.

 

[WillowTree]

no catz,, I do read them, and I respect your opinions even though I disagree with them,, but as long as you are willing to let millions of us die so you can wear your white hat, you are a libral.

So, protecting the constitution, the rule of law, and the treaties that help to protect our military service personnel during overseas conflicts = liberal.

Good to know. If that's the case, then I will proudly claim the term.

See, you think that's some kind of slur. But I think that you, and others like you, have irreparably damaged the reputation of conservatism.

So, I guess we're even.

I don't use it as a slur,, I use it to denote a way of thinking.. I'm trying to wrap my mind around wearing a white hat and feeling all sanctimonious while watching millions die.. "Well" at least I didn't make anybody uncomfortable."
oh and don't preach to me about the rule of law.. NOt while 30 million or so people are allowed to break our law..and we give them "sanctuary" that's just downright dishonest of ya.

 

[Iriemon]

not a libral?

I voted for W twice. I've told you this before, ON THIS THREAD.

I'm pro-gun
I'm anti-abortion
I'm pro-law enforcement
I'm pro strict penalties for criminals
I'm anti-illegal immigration
I'm pro-military, and I support a strong defense
I'm fiscally conservative

But, you don't actually read other people's posts, do you Willow? You just spout nonsense.

no catz,, I do read them, and I respect your opinions even though I disagree with them,, but as long as you are willing to let millions of us die so you can wear your white hat, you are a libral.

Same as saying that if you are willing to let the Govt use Gestapo torture techniques you are a nazi.

 

[WillowTree]

I voted for W twice. I've told you this before, ON THIS THREAD.

I'm pro-gun
I'm anti-abortion
I'm pro-law enforcement
I'm pro strict penalties for criminals
I'm anti-illegal immigration
I'm pro-military, and I support a strong defense
I'm fiscally conservative

But, you don't actually read other people's posts, do you Willow? You just spout nonsense.

no catz,, I do read them, and I respect your opinions even though I disagree with them,, but as long as you are willing to let millions of us die so you can wear your white hat, you are a libral.

Same as saying that if you are willing to let the Govt use Gestapo torture techniques you are a nazi.

hey asshole! I thought you were going to ignore me?

 

[NOBama]

Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002
By Joby Warrick and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers

Sunday, December 9, 2007; Page A01

In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

"The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough," said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.

Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002 - washingtonpost.com

Rice gave early 'waterboarding green light'
2 hours ago

The CIA had asked to be able to waterboard Zubaydah, a Saudi-born Palestinian whose real name is Zayn Al Abidin Muhammad Husayn, fearing he was withholding information about "imminent" terrorist attacks, the panel said.

The committee did not wade into the growing controversy over whether so-called "enhanced interrogation" methods used on Zubaydah -- who was waterboarded 83 times in August 2002 -- yielded solid information.
US forces captured Zubaydah in a late March 2002 firefight in Pakistan, tended to his serious injuries, and began to question him, according to the timeline.

The agency asked senior officials in Washington, including Rice, in mid-May 2002 to discuss the possibility of using methods, including waterboarding, that were rougher than traditional interrogation methods.
The CIA made the request because it "believed that Abu Zubaydah was withholding imminent threat information during the initial interrogation sessions."

The US Department of Justice's Office of Legal Counsel orally advised the CIA on July 26, 2002, "that the use of waterboarding was lawful," a finding it put in writing on August 1, 2002, the timeline said.

A US congressman, Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, spoke out Thursday in an opinion piece against Obama's decision to release details of the enhanced interrogation techniques, saying "members of Congress from both parties have been fully aware of them since the program began in 2002."

"We believed it was something that had to be done in the aftermath of the 9/11 terrorist attacks (of 2001) to keep our nation safe," Republican Hoekstra wrote in The Wall Street Journal.

"After many long and contentious debates, Congress repeatedly approved and funded this program on a bipartisan basis in both Republican and Democratic Congresses."

AFP: Rice gave early 'waterboarding green light'

Let's just fire the whole lot of them, change the laws so we can jail them, waterboard them daily - until they die, and invite Al Qaeda to a grand Gala on the South Lawn. Perhaps the terrorists will think better us then.

Sheez...

 

[catzmeow]

I don't use it as a slur,, I use it to denote a way of thinking.. I'm trying to wrap my mind around wearing a white hat and feeling all sanctimonious while watching millions die.. "Well" at least I didn't make anybody uncomfortable."
oh and don't preach to me about the rule of law.. NOt while 30 million or so people are allowed to break our law..and we give them "sanctuary" that's just downright dishonest of ya.

As you well know, I'm not a fan of illegal immigration and/or sanctuary status.

I work in a field where we deal with intense emotion all the time. Someone's kid is ALWAYS at risk of dying. The rule of law is what keeps us on the straight and narrow.

I've also seen, over the years, that cutting corners leads to BAD THINGS.

A guy can bring a suspect in, and beat a confession out of him, but what does that accomplish in the long run? It throws the entire case into question. It throws the department into question. It causes the community to distrust all police officers even more than they already do. In the long run, that community is more unlikely to report crimes. In the long run, the community begins to view the police as the enemy. In the long run, the life of every single officer on that departmetn becomes more dangerous.

The same is true with our national policies. America has survived as well as we have because for the most part, we've been able to claim that white hat. People have looked up to us, trusted us, and respected us. We have lost a lot of that, and the ramifications are only now being seen. This torture thing will allow other nations to villify us. This torture thing will be used to justify atrocities directed against Americans. This torture thing will be used in turn to justify torturing OUR SERVICE PERSONNEL.

I believe in following the rules because, in the long run, following the rules WORKS BETTER. I'm a pragmatic about this. There will always be a threat. We cannot, however, allow ourselves to change the rules with every threat. The rules are there for a larger reason than today's threat du jour.

 

[catzmeow]

Let's just fire the whole lot of them, change the laws so we can jail them, waterboard them daily - until they die, and invite Al Qaeda to a grand Gala on the South Lawn. Perhaps the terrorists will think better us then.

Sheez...

Do you get that this ISN'T political? That the ramifications of these actions undertaken during 2002 - 2009 will still be impacting us, as a nation, in a hundred years? This so transcends petty party bickering that it makes me sick that we even have to discuss it.