Children are born believers in God, academic claims

[Hollie]

Two questions for some of the Christians in this thread:
1) Why should I believe anything in your book? What evidence do you have that it is a reliable and true source? Sure, it's old, but the Vedic texts (some of them, anyway) are older. Sure, you can cite your religious experience or your neighbor's, but so can a number of Sihks, Zoroastrian's (you know, the the Windows Vista to your Windows 7), Shinto, Native Americans, Asatru', and whatever the term is for the people who believe in the old gods of the Aztecs.

2)If children/people are 'naturally drawn to god', how do you explain their being drawn to different gods in different places and times? Either they are not drawn to god, but rather to a theory of mind as an explanation of observed phenomenon and events- or you must admit that their are multiple gods (or at least multiple forms or incarnations of some common deity), which would be contrary to basic Christian tenants.

First of all, stop misstating the matter. According to these studies, children tend to embrace a supernatural cause behind existence. Period. There are after all only two options with regard to ultimate origin: either the cosmos has always existed or was caused to exist by a transcendent entity, inanimateness or consciousness. The problem of origin is universally apprehended by all. LOL! There is no mystery as to why most of us hold that God must be.

Atheism is the stuff of staggering stupidity and superstition.

Admit what? Different gods. So what? The atheist thinks he his own god. He thinks the cosmos is god or the quantum vacuum is god.

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Jesus loves you. You are guilty, and you know it. Repent. The day of salvation is now!

Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them?

-Jules Feiffer

 

[Foxfyre]

Your premise completely contradicts what the Scriptures teach:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)

If people were born with faith, then why did Paul say it came from hearing the Word of God?

Paul also said that those who have not heard the word of God are nevertheless informed by nature and have no excuse:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:18-20).

Einstein would heartily concur. He did not believe in a personal God of any kind, but purely by his observance of the universe and the intricities and perfections within nature, he, like Spinoza, could not rule out an intelligence behnd the design and process.

And the Bible is full of reports again and again and again of when God Himself made Himself known. Two examples:

The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary, So that the water should not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men (Proverbs 8:22-31).

So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder. And the Lord came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up (Exodus 19:16-20; see 20:18).

If we believe these accounts, is it not reasonable to believe that the purest of God's creatures, the child, has an awareness of a divine presence before others teach him or her to question, to doubt, or corrupt it with manmade dogma and rules?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

If you're going to go out of your way to claim intellectual/educational superiority to someone at the beginning of your post, you might want to learn when to use 'an'. Using it incorrectly (much like the misuse of 'whom') simply makes you look like an idiot who's trying very hard to sound more educated than you actually are.

Just sayin'.

You're a liar. My piece on abiogenesis is rock solid. I am an expert on the matter. You are not, and you know it. Shut your filthy mouth! I don't tolerate the depravity of atheists thinking to steal the truth and lead others to hell. Go to hell by yourself.

I thought you said you were familiar with the subject? Evidently not, if you think all at work is chance variation with no selective forces.

There are no "selective forces" in any coherent sense prior to life in an environment swimming in containments. Anyone with an IQ above that of a gnat and who has read my article can plainly see that I know what I'm talking about. Stop lying.

Definerganic material

I'm not going to rewrite the article here. Read it!

Pattern emergence from pseudo-random (there is no such thing as truly random in this universe) non-linear systems is nothing new or exotic.

That's not the issue! Read the article. With every breath you reveal your staggering ignorance. You're a liar. You know you don't have the sort of expertise to discuses this matter intelligently with me. I'm the expert here. Shut up.

I'll pass, Mr. Jones.

You'll pass on the Kool Aid, eh? It's all down your shirt. You've been drinking it for years.

You also can't roll back the tape and watch Stonehenge being erected, but that doesn't mean you can't learn how it could have been accomplished. If you really want to go down the road of epistemology, you can't even prove that you exist, save perhaps to your own self (if you accept the cogito argument that perception of one's own thoughts proves one's own existence as a thinking/perceiving mind as a matter of self-evidence). You can never prove to me you exist, nor can I prove to you that I exist- we can only infer such things from the available information, in accordance with our own theory/model of other minds- which takes us back to the subject of this thread: application of a theory of other minds to the broader world one perceives- that is, religion and the imagining of deity (or the spirit of the wind, or the personality of a misbehaving machine) as an explanation of events through the lens of the imagined motivations of a conceived actor.

Again, that's not the essence of the problem! Stop guessing and making things up. Read the article.

You’re a fool. And anyone who grants you any credibility whatsoever on this matter is a fool.

I’m done with you. This last post is only for the sake of others, that you not mislead them.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Children are born "believers" because they're born INNOCENT. They believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and all sorts of "belief" which can be reasoned for the "lack" of "understanding" of the "mature" world.

Children are born believing in Santa Claus and the like? The notions of fairy tales are comparable to the fundamental components of the universal problem of origin? When is this hypothesis of yours up for peer review?

Does the abject stupidity of atheism or its depraved indifference for truth ever end?

 

[koshergrl]

Look what my Sunday school readings of the last couple of weeks are:

"Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to obey, be ready for every good work, to slander no one, to avoid fighting, ad to be kind, always showing gentleness to all people. For we too were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, enslaved by various passions and pleasures, LIVING IN MALICE AND ENVY, HATEFUL, DETESTING ONE ANOTHER.
"But when the goodness of God ad His love for mankind appeared, He saved us - not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
"He poured out this Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that having been justified by his grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
"This saying is trustworthy." Titus 3:1-8a

"I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone. But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless." Titus 3:8b - 9




"But have nothing to do with irreverent and silly myths. Rather, train yourself in godliness, for the training of the body has a limited benefit but godliness is beneficial i every way, sice it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
"This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance. In fact, we labor and strive for this, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, especially of those who believe." I Tim 4:7-10

 

[koshergrl]

If you're going to go out of your way to claim intellectual/educational superiority to someone at the beginning of your post, you might want to learn when to use 'an'. Using it incorrectly (much like the misuse of 'whom') simply makes you look like an idiot who's trying very hard to sound more educated than you actually are.

Just sayin'.

You're a liar. My piece on abiogenesis is rock solid. I am an expert on the matter. You are not, and you know it. Shut your filthy mouth! I don't tolerate the depravity of atheists thinking to steal the truth and lead others to hell. Go to hell by yourself.

I thought you said you were familiar with the subject? Evidently not, if you think all at work is chance variation with no selective forces.

You do not have "selective forces" in any coherent sense prior to life in an environment swimming in containments. Anyone with an IQ above that of a gnat and who has read my article knows I know what I'm talking about. Stop lying.




I'm not going to rewrite the article here. Read it!



That's not the issue! Read the article. With every breath you reveal your staggering ignorance. You're a liar. You know you don't have the sort of expertise to discuses this matter intelligently with me. I'm the expert here. Shut up.

I'll pass, Mr. Jones.

You'll pass on the Kool Aid, eh? It's all down your shirt. You've been drinking it for years.

You also can't roll back the tape and watch Stonehenge being erected, but that doesn't mean you can't learn how it could have been accomplished. If you really want to go down the road of epistemology, you can't even prove that you exist, save perhaps to your own self (if you accept the cogito argument that perception of one's own thoughts proves one's own existence as a thinking/perceiving mind as a matter of self-evidence). You can never prove to me you exist, nor can I prove to you that I exist- we can only infer such things from the available information, in accordance with our own theory/model of other minds- which takes us back to the subject of this thread: application of a theory of other minds to the broader world one perceives- that is, religion and the imagining of deity (or the spirit of the wind, or the personality of a misbehaving machine) as an explanation of events through the lens of the imagined motivations of a conceived actor.

Again, that's not the essence of the problem! Stop guessing and making things up. Read the article.

You’re a fool. And anyone who grants you any credibility whatsoever on this matter is a fool.

I’m done with you. This last post is only for the sake of others, that you not mislead them.

All atheists are fools, but remember it is not them that you're hearing, but Satan. As maddening and frightening as they are, their souls also need Christ, and they also need to hear the word. They, more than anyone.

 

[varelse]

The atheist thinks he's his own god. He thinks the cosmos is god or the quantum vacuum is god.

Sounds closer to Satanism ala Anton Levay

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

An accurate summation of the rest of your post.

Your wrongs can never be blotted out, they can only be right or the score settled. You don't get to have a deathbed confession and die with a clean slate. My gods don't go for that bullshit, either.

You're a liar.

[Citation needed]

Shut your filthy mouth!

And any semblance of rational discourse goes right out the proverbial window...

I don't tolerate the depravity of atheists thinking to steal the truth and lead others to hell.

There are no "selective forces" in any coherent sense prior to life in an environment swimming in containments

Even replicators (which are not alive) and emerging patterns are subject to natural selection- those which do not persist, vanish.

 

[koshergrl]

Any semblance of rational discourse exited when you spammed the thread with the nonsensical narration of numerous *gods*, towards no discernible purpose.

 

[koshergrl]

Wrongs aren't blotted out...they are forgiven.

 

[varelse]

Wrongs aren't blotted out...

Isaiah 43:25 "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

So you don't believe what's in the bible?

 

[koshergrl]

Christ covers our sins as far as God is concerned; but we still have to deal with the consequences of them on this earth. God is speaking specifically about sins being dead to him.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Children are born believers in God, academic claims

Nonsense.

Religion is learned, a consequence of socialization, it’s not innate.

 

[koshergrl]

Not according to Oxford.

 

[koshergrl]

"
"The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children's minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in God."



Children are born believers in God, academic claims - Telegraph

 

[koshergrl]

"A three-year international research project, directed by two academics at the University of Oxford, finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife.
The £1.9 million project involved 57 researchers who conducted over 40 separate studies in 20 countries representing a diverse range of cultures. The studies (both analytical and empirical) conclude that humans are predisposed to believe in gods and an afterlife, and that both theology and atheism are reasoned responses to what is a basic impulse of the human mind."


Humans 'predisposed' to believe in gods and the afterlife

 

[koshergrl]

"Project Co-Director Professor Roger Trigg, from the University of Oxford's Ian Ramsey Centre, said: 'This project suggests that religion is not just something for a peculiar few to do on Sundays instead of playing golf. We have gathered a body of evidence that suggests that religion is a common fact of human nature across different societies. This suggests that attempts to suppress religion are likely to be short-lived as human thought seems to be rooted to religious concepts, such as the existence of supernatural agents or gods, and the possibility of an afterlife or pre-life.'"

Humans 'predisposed' to believe in gods and the afterlife

 

[Hollie]

Children are born believers in God, academic claims

Nonsense.

Religion is learned, a consequence of socialization, it’s not innate.

I agree. While the same link has been cut and pasted across multiple threads, the flaws in underlying presumptions don’t magically go away.

The author of the “alleged” study, has an obvious predisposition toward theology, thus, his results mirror his preconceptions.

What is missing in the study is submission of the data for peer review by scientists without a bias toward arriving at a preconceived conclusion.

Notice the phrasing taken from the link: "If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in God."

Really? You think so?

I have no problem per se with people speculating and even deciding that whatever standards they have suffices as proof enough for them of issues of the divine-- and that includes the rejection of knowledge above. However, it remains speculation and not truth.

I don't think the author of the “study” is necessarily a liar. I think he, like many of faith, are willing to pick and choose criteria in order to have the belief system that makes them “feel good”. If something stands in the way of their conclusion, they'll just ignore it and believe anyway.

 

[koshergrl]

The "alleged" study?

Pffft...you're a lowbrow ignoramus.

57 researchers, 20 different countries, of all different religions and persuasions put their names to the study...which was led by a prestigious Oxford researcher.

Which is why the mainstream media ignored it, and why morons like Hollie attempt to discredit it.

Your bias is showing...as is your hatred of education and scientific study.

 

[koshergrl]

Meanwhile, in the real world:

"Experiments involving adults, conducted by Jing Zhu from Tsinghua University (China), and Natalie Emmons and Jesse Bering from The Queen's University, Belfast, suggest that people across many different cultures instinctively believe that some part of their mind, soul or spirit lives on after-death. The studies demonstrate that people are natural 'dualists' finding it easy to conceive of the separation of the mind and the body."

Humans 'predisposed' to believe in gods and the afterlife

 

[koshergrl]

Note the source, you uneducated nitwit.