Zone1 Christianity and our founding fathers

[Grumblenuts]

establishing religion was left to the states.

You wish. "Historically, it meant prohibiting state-sponsored churches, such as the Church of England." And:

Nothing fails like prayer.

It is irresponsible for Pablos to reject actual offers of assistance, and for Abbott to use his office to endorse prayer.

If prayer comforts religious people, by all means, they are free to pray. But, as President Thomas Jefferson noted in a Jan. 23, 1808, letter to Rev. Samuel Miller, it is beyond the scope of the executive branch to prescribe or even simply to recommend prayer. "Civil powers alone have been given to the president of the United States and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents." The govenor of Texas is doing precisely what the founding father and president precluded.

 

[ding]

You wish. "Historically, it meant prohibiting state-sponsored churches, such as the Church of England." And:

Nothing fails like prayer.

You don't know history then. Because if that was what was originally intended then SCOTUS wouldn't have needed to incorrectly use the 14th amendment to place 1st and 2nd amendment restrictions on the states. Nor would the failed Blaine amendment have been needed. So again... you don't know history.

 

[Grumblenuts]

James Madison Jr. was born near Port Conway, Va., to James and Nelly Conway Madison. A deist, he became the primary author of the secular U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights and fourth U.S. president. Baptized Anglican, he contemplated the ministry as a career. After graduating from Princeton, Madison was appointed a delegate to the Virginia state convention. There he was responsible for the adoption of a freedom of conscience clause in the state constitution. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect," Madison wrote William Bradford on April 1, 1771.

After being elected to the Virginia Legislature, his famous "Memorial and Remonstrance" defeated a bid to force mandatory tithing in 1785. His memorial warned that "it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties." Madison was elected to the first House of Representatives, was secretary of state under Jefferson and served as president from 1809 to 1817.

His "Detached Memorabilia," written between 1817 and 1832, revealed his regrets over the appointment of chaplains to the two houses of Congress. Madison called it "a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles." He equally argued against chaplains in the military and religious proclamations by the president, writing that such acts "imply a religious agency."

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

From Grumblenuts above

His "Detached Memorabilia," written between 1817 and 1832, revealed his regrets over the appointment of chaplains to the two houses of Congress. Madison called it "a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles." He equally argued against chaplains in the military and religious proclamations by the president, writing that such acts "imply a religious agency."

 

[Grumblenuts]

Dispelling the Myth of “School Choice” - Freedom From Religion Foundation

From vouchers to tax credit scholarships programs, "school choice" schemes are a means to divert public money to private, mostly religious schools. Sc...

ffrf.org

Voucher schemes are a backdoor means of funding religious schools with taxpayer money, undermining the principle of separation of state and church on which our country was founded. It is a cornerstone of our secular republic that citizens should not be taxed to support religion. Many immigrants came to this continent to avoid being coerced by their government into converting, or into paying taxes and tithes to denominations from which they dissented. Thomas Jefferson's landmark Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, passed in 1786, guaranteed that no citizen "shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever," including religious seminaries. Many state constitutions replicate this wording in their Bill of Rights.

Voucher programs not only repugnantly force citizens to fund and support religious institutions, but the actual indoctrination of students. Meanwhile, vouchers divert precious public funds from our secular public schools, which must scrupulously avoid proselytizing a captive audience. More than 65 years of Supreme Court precedent bars religious instruction, ritual or prayer in our public schools. Yet under voucher schemes, taxpayers are compelled to fund such instruction, ritual and prayer.

 

[ding]

From Grumblenuts above

His "Detached Memorabilia," written between 1817 and 1832, revealed his regrets over the appointment of chaplains to the two houses of Congress. Madison called it "a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles." He equally argued against chaplains in the military and religious proclamations by the president, writing that such acts "imply a religious agency."

It's your bias which is blinding you. Half the states had established state religions. If the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment applied to the states that wouldn't have been allowed.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

It's ding's bias which is blinding him. If the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment applied to the states that wouldn't have been allowed. There were nowhere twenty states with established religions (only 14).

The United States has a fascinating history regarding state religions. Let’s delve into it:

1. Colonial Era:
   • During the colonial period, some states had officially established religions. For instance, Congregationalism was the established religion in Massachusetts.
   • Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, and Delaware were exceptions, as they did not prefer or support any specific religion1.
2. American Revolution:
   • The Founding Fathers were keen on avoiding the religious conflicts that had plagued Europe.
   • They wanted to ensure that everyone had the right to worship according to their beliefs.
   • The First Amendment to the Constitution (added in 1791) emphasized religious freedom and prohibited the government from establishing a religion or interfering with its free exercise2.
3. 20th Century Shifts:
   • Balancing the two provisions of religious freedom became controversial in the 20th century.
   • The establishment clause disputes reached the Supreme Court:
     • In Bradfield v. Roberts (1899), federal money was approved for constructing a Catholic hospital in Washington, D.C..
     • In Quick Bear v. Leupp (1908), government funds supported Catholic Indian Bureau mission schools for Native Americans.
   • Maine’s 2022 decision in Carson v. Makin highlighted the tension between avoiding establishment issues and ensuring citizens’ religious participation2.
4. Disestablishment:
   • Over time, the number of religious establishments reversed:
     • Ten out of fourteen states disbanded their established religions or declined to support them.
     • Vermont joined this trend, effectively ending the practice of state-supported religions by 18833.

In summary, the U.S. moved away from state religions, emphasizing individual freedom of worship and avoiding religious entanglement with government affairs2.

 

[ding]

It's ding's bias which is blinding him. If the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment applied to the states that wouldn't have been allowed. There were nowhere twenty states with established religions (only 14).

The United States has a fascinating history regarding state religions. Let’s delve into it:

1. Colonial Era:
   • During the colonial period, some states had officially established religions. For instance, Congregationalism was the established religion in Massachusetts.
   • Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, and Delaware were exceptions, as they did not prefer or support any specific religion1.
2. American Revolution:
   • The Founding Fathers were keen on avoiding the religious conflicts that had plagued Europe.
   • They wanted to ensure that everyone had the right to worship according to their beliefs.
   • The First Amendment to the Constitution (added in 1791) emphasized religious freedom and prohibited the government from establishing a religion or interfering with its free exercise2.
3. 20th Century Shifts:
   • Balancing the two provisions of religious freedom became controversial in the 20th century.
   • The establishment clause disputes reached the Supreme Court:
     • In Bradfield v. Roberts (1899), federal money was approved for constructing a Catholic hospital in Washington, D.C..
     • In Quick Bear v. Leupp (1908), government funds supported Catholic Indian Bureau mission schools for Native Americans.
   • Maine’s 2022 decision in Carson v. Makin highlighted the tension between avoiding establishment issues and ensuring citizens’ religious participation2.
4. Disestablishment:
   • Over time, the number of religious establishments reversed:
     • Ten out of fourteen states disbanded their established religions or declined to support them.
     • Vermont joined this trend, effectively ending the practice of state-supported religions by 18833.

In summary, the U.S. moved away from state religions, emphasizing individual freedom of worship and avoiding religious entanglement with government affairs2.

Half the states had established religions. Wouldn't have been possible if the 1st Amendment applied to the states.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Half the states had established state religions. If the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment applied to the states that wouldn't have been allowed.

Sure those established Constitutions could’ve been allowed. And “free exercise” applying to the ‘individual’ they knew that those pre-revolution and pre-enlightenment Colonial Constitutions would be revised eventually anyway.

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect," Madison wrote William Bradford on April 1, 1771.​

Les be known that Saint Ding is in favor of religious bondage, in order to shackle and debilitate the mind if Alabama wants to do it, etc. Mississippi, Arkansas

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Half the states had established religions.

So you’re saying America was founded 50–50 a Christian nation / half was : half wasn’t

You are still wrong but you’re getting better 80% of the nation wasn’t Christian.

 

[ding]

It would have been impossible for half the states to have established religions if the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment applied to the states. It ought to be obvious the establishment clause was limited to the federal government because it literally called out Congress. There are no mentions of states at all. Only Congress.

It's amazing at how bias prevents some people from seeing reality.

 

[ding]

It's ding's bias which is blinding him. If the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment applied to the states that wouldn't have been allowed. There were nowhere twenty states with established religions (only 14).

The United States has a fascinating history regarding state religions. Let’s delve into it:

1. Colonial Era:
   • During the colonial period, some states had officially established religions. For instance, Congregationalism was the established religion in Massachusetts.
   • Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, and Delaware were exceptions, as they did not prefer or support any specific religion1.
2. American Revolution:
   • The Founding Fathers were keen on avoiding the religious conflicts that had plagued Europe.
   • They wanted to ensure that everyone had the right to worship according to their beliefs.
   • The First Amendment to the Constitution (added in 1791) emphasized religious freedom and prohibited the government from establishing a religion or interfering with its free exercise2.
3. 20th Century Shifts:
   • Balancing the two provisions of religious freedom became controversial in the 20th century.
   • The establishment clause disputes reached the Supreme Court:
     • In Bradfield v. Roberts (1899), federal money was approved for constructing a Catholic hospital in Washington, D.C..
     • In Quick Bear v. Leupp (1908), government funds supported Catholic Indian Bureau mission schools for Native Americans.
   • Maine’s 2022 decision in Carson v. Makin highlighted the tension between avoiding establishment issues and ensuring citizens’ religious participation2.
4. Disestablishment:
   • Over time, the number of religious establishments reversed:
     • Ten out of fourteen states disbanded their established religions or declined to support them.
     • Vermont joined this trend, effectively ending the practice of state-supported religions by 18833.

In summary, the U.S. moved away from state religions, emphasizing individual freedom of worship and avoiding religious entanglement with government affairs2.

Can you show where the establishment clause applies to the states using the words from the establishment clause?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

[ding]

So the Founding Fathers believed in Natural Law; that Natural Law was from God and wrote the establishment clause to protect state religions from a national religion.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Half the states had established religions. Wouldn't have been possible if the 1st Amendment applied to the states.

Be difficult. It does not change that you are wrong.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

False, ding. 1st Amendment was written to keep organized religion out of government, not God out of peoples' lives if they so wish.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Can you show where the establishment clause applies to the states using the words from the establishment clause?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yes. That is easy;

Saint Ding, the First Amendment is under the Bill of Rights. It’s about INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. The First Amendment provides constitutional protection for certain individual liberties, including freedom of religion, freedom of speech and the press, and the rights to assemble and petition the government.

You seem to be reading “Congress shall make no law” as applying only to the Federal Government.

You are wrong.

Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Why can states pass laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion?

Let’s do it with freedom of speech, shall we?

Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech.

Congress shall make no law prohibiting the right of the people peaceably to assemble.



Of course it could be read like this

Congress shall make no law respecting or prohibiting the free exercise of religion

 

[ding]

Be difficult. It does not change that you are wrong.

How am I wrong when the establishment clause doesn't mention the states at all? It only mentions Congress.

 

[ding]

Yes. That is easy;

Saint Ding, the First Amendment is under the Bill of Rights. It’s about INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. The First Amendment provides constitutional protection for certain individual liberties, including freedom of religion, freedom of speech and the press, and the rights to assemble and petition the government.

You seem to be reading “Congress shall make no law” as applying only to the Federal Government.

You are wrong.

Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Why can states pass laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion?

Let’s do it with freedom of speech, shall we?

Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech.

Congress shall make no law prohibiting the right of the people peaceably to assemble.

So glad you agree that the establishment clause was written to protect state established religions from a national established religion by restricting Congress from interfering with state established religions.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

So glad you agree that the establishment clause was written to protect state established religions from a national established

You are a liar that is not what the first amendment says or what I said.

The bill of rights is about individual rights.

What you are saying is that states can abridge freedom of speech?

You did not answer this question

Why can states pass laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion?

 

[ding]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.