Zone1 Christianity and our founding fathers

[NotfooledbyW]

Can you explain how if states were restricted from establishing religion why half of the states had established state religions?

States with established religion were already in place. Did you hear the founding generation revolted against the existing oppressive state controlled Christian Order That rebellion drastically change things? When the bill of rights passed in congress, those Christian states constitution, good night, enforce their state religion anymore, because the individuals rights to free exercise of religion. What is the law of the nation?

 

[ding]

Yes.

Saint Ding, the First Amendment is under the Bill of Rights. It’s about INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. The First Amendment provides constitutional protection for certain individual liberties, including freedom of religion, freedom of speech and the press, and the rights to assemble and petition the government.

Every state had to respect the individual liberties in the First Amendment including freedom of religion, freedom of speech and the press, and the rights to assemble and petition the government.

You are saying states can ignore this if they wanted to. That is absurd.

I think you need to learn some history.

The Massachusetts Constitution of 1780 states the following qualifications for holding the office of governor, “no person shall be eligible for this office, unless . . . he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion.” The following oath was also required, “I do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have firm persuasion of its truth.”

From the Delaware constitution: “Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust . . . shall . . . also make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit” ‘I do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration.”

In the “Fundamental Constitution for the Province of East New Jersey”, drafted in 1683, religious liberty was upheld, and every civil magistrate was required to affirm this by law and swear a binding to Jesus Christ. Following this requirement we read: ‘Nor by this article is it intended that any under the notion of liberty shall allow themselves to avow atheism, irreligiousness, or to practice cursing, swearing, drunkenness, profaneness, whoring, adultery, murdering, or any kind of violence."

The New Hampshire constitution of 1784 “recognized ‘morality and piety’ are ‘rightly grounded on evangelical principles’ State officeholders – governor, senators, representatives, and members of Council- must be of the ‘protestant religion’”

The 1776 Constitution of North Carolina in Article XXXII states, “No person who shall deny the being of God, or the truth of the Protestant religion, or the divine authority of the Old or New Testaments, or who shall hold religious principles incompatible with the freedom and safety of the State, shall be capable of holding any office or place of trust or profit in the civil department within this State.” This provision remained in effect until 1876.

The 1778 Constitution of South Carolina declares “That all persons and religious societies who acknowledge that there is one God, and a future state of rewards and punishments, and that God is to be publicly worshipped, shall be tolerated. The Christian Protestant religion shall be deemed, and is hereby constituted and declared to be, the established religion of the State.”

“Even in the fundamental law of the Province of Rhode Island, best known for the religious dissension of its founder Roger Williams, “Christian purpose is expressly stated and a particular form of Christianity (Protestantism) was required as a qualification for office”

 

[NotfooledbyW]

None of those limitations applied to the states. Show me where the constitution requires the states to follow the restrictions placed on the federal government

How many does the Bill of Rights protect?

 

[ding]

States with established religion were already in place. Did you hear the founding generation revolted against the existing oppressive state controlled Christian Order That rebellion drastically change things? When the bill of rights passed in congress, those Christian states constitution, good night, enforce their state religion anymore, because the individuals rights to free exercise of religion. What is the law of the nation?

How can that be if it as you say the Constitution forbids states from establishing state religions?

 

[ding]

How many does the Bill of Rights protect?

Everyone by restricting the federal government, not state governments. Learn some history.

 

[ding]

How many does the Bill of Rights protect?

Can you show me where it states the restrictions placed on government applies to states? It does state those restrictions apply to Congress, right?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The Massachusetts Constitution of 1780 states

So what? The bill of rights changed everything. All those constitution to keep listing more amended to reflect the individual rights that the founding generations fought for.

 

[ding]

So what? The bill of rights changed everything. All those constitution to keep listing more amended to reflect the individual rights that the founding generations fought for.

Show me where it applies to the states. It doesn't. It only applies to the federal government. That's why they specifically stated CONGRESS.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

restricting the federal government, not state governments.

You ste saying state governments do not have to respect the individual right to free speech

 

[ding]

The establishment clause was specifically written to prevent the national government from interfering with state established religions.

 

[ding]

You were saying state governments do not have to respect the individual right to free speech

Correct. As they were written. Of course that changed after SCOTUS applied the 14th amendment incorrectly and made those restrictions apply to the states. Like I said before, learn some history. Don't make up shit to make yourself feel good.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The establishment clause was specifically written to prevent the national government from interfering with state established religions.

Those are your words; not what is explicitly written in the first amendment

 

[ding]

Those are your words; not what is explicitly written in the first amendment

No, it's the logical conclusion of states being allowed to establish state religions, the national government not being allowed to establish state religions and the reasons so many Christians fled England because England had a national religion and forced their beliefs on everyone. It was actually a really big deal to the states and has been amply recorded in history. Learn some history.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Correct. As they were written. Of course that changed after SCOTUS applied the 14th amendment incorrectly and made those restrictions apply to the states. Like I said before, learn some history. Don't make up shit to make yourself feel good.

Ok, we do not have any first amendment rights unless the state agrees to grant them.

Saint dings America

 

[NotfooledbyW]

No, it's the logical conclusion of states being allowed to establish state religions, the national government not being allowed to establish state religions and the reasons so many Christians fled England because England had a national religion and forced their beliefs on everyone. It was actually a really big deal to the states and has been amply recorded in history. Learn some history.

??????? wtf

 

[ding]

The history why it was important to restrict the federal government from creating a national religion...

Many of the British North American Colonies that joined in 1776 to form the United States of America were settled in the 17th century for religious purposes by men and women who, in the face of European persecution, refused to compromise passionately held religious convictions and risked the perilous crossing of the Atlantic to practice their religion as they believed the Scriptures commanded.

“In 1609, because of persecution, a group of Christians left their village in Scrooby, England . . . “ and “led by their pastor, John Robinson this group settled in Leyden, Holland where they formed an English Separatist Church. After a few years . . . they wanted to live in a society that was thoroughly founded on the Bible, not
simply a place where they would have the freedom to go to the church of their choice. These Separatists (Pilgrims), decided to go to the New World. . . . In September of 1620 the, Pilgrims set sail from Plymouth, England, in a ship named the Mayflower. After more than two months at sea, the Mayflower reached American
shore. . .”

And many more instances as described in the link below. This was the background for restricting the federal government with interfering with state established religions.

America as a Religious Refuge: The Seventeenth Century, Part 1 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

Many of the British colonies that eventually formed the United States were settled by men and women, who, in the face of European persecution, refused to compromise their religious convictions and fled Europe.

www.loc.gov

 

[ding]

Ok, we do not have any first amendment rights unless the state agrees to grant them.

Saint dings America

The Bill of Rights - as written - only limits what the Federal government can do. After the 14th amendment was incorrectly applied by SCOTUS those restrictions now apply to states as well. Learn some history.

 

[ding]

??????? wtf

You are too dumb and too biased and too ignorant of history to have this conversation.

 

[ding]

Those are your words; not what is explicitly written in the first amendment

The first amendment doesn't mention the restrictions apply to states, only to Congress. The fact that SCOTUS ruled that the 14th amendment made the bill of rights apply to states as well should be a clue to you that they didn't apply to the states when the founders wrote and ratified them.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

so many Christians fled England because England had a national religion and forced their beliefs on everyone.

Adams paid no attention to the Church of England beliefs, he was a Unitarian did not believe much if any of the Cross of Christ stuff. What are you talking about?

JEFFERSON? That’s hilarious. That Bible thumpers called him an atheist, but they were a minority.

Madison and Washington were Freemasons. You should try at Saint Ding.

The American consensus in 1790s wanted no government, state or federal dictating matters of conscience and religion in the individual,

That fits with 80% of the founding generation not being religious or concerned about being saved and born again.

why would irreligious people want a state religion

That’s why no state religions lasted much beyond the founding generations lifetime.