Christians at War

[Diuretic]

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of thing I have been looking for. From these arguments once the Sovereign decides on war, it I the duty of the individual soldier to follow the orders of the Sovereign even if the soldier were to conclude individually that the war was unjust.

At that point the burden of whether or not to go to war would be the responsibility of the Sovereign.

That pretty much sums it up. It seems to me that both Augustine and Acquinas would have seen it all from perspective of an absolute monarch.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

But then wouldn’t volunteering for military service be taking the decision not to kill without moral justification out of the hands of the individual?

If so would an individual who volunteered for service still be held to the same standard of moral justification regardless of the personal cost?

Well sir, that's a well reasoned question and I thank you for asking it.

In short, the US military operates on the Uniform Code of Military Justice... within that code are very specific regulations which FORBID an individual from executing ANY ORDER which they have good reason to believe is unlawful... what's more, the US military stads on a long tradition of respect and adherence to the principle that no law can serve justice, where that law is not founded in valid moral principle. Thus, the individual is not only never required to kill outside of valid moral justification; they are strictly forbidden to do so and what's more, it is not a valid defense from charges of killing outside of valid moral justification, to declare that one was following orders.

The US military is not an army of drones... it is a highly disciplined, highly trained professional military; and that is the source of its efficacy; its effectiveness. Each combat soldier is trained in what is and is not a valid moral justification to kill and that training is constantly reinforced and exercised. Now does that mean that there are not cases where individuals acted on dubious grounds; where poor judgment was used, where the fog of war (the chaos of action, fear, adrenalin, fatigue, rage, time compression and so on...) created circumstances which made good decisions literally impossible... absolutely and it is due to that which makes war the absolute last resort, because once it starts the only two options is to survive or die; to win or lose.

Serving in the Military is a very honorable act and it is one which without regard to one's position, but particularly so for those who choose to enter the breech... and one which those who choose not to enter can never know or in many cases can never even relate to it. But it is unquestionably a moral function and one which is more necessary than most.

 

[Shogun]

Ain't it cool how this 'arsenokoitai' feel like they can evoke the word of God, despite themselves being an abomination to God?

This individual is a conclusively established advocate for adult/child sex; a sexual deviant... a human being that walks a life of debauchery; whose life is fixed upon evil.

But of course, that DOES explain why she is in here trying to lead people to believe that they are required by Christ's word to allow any evil to perpetuate... advancing the idiocy that Christ requires his flock to condone evil, to even double its output if such is forced upon us…

Friends this member represents what the ideological left is all about… lies and spiritual / intellectual dead ends.

By all means.. AVOID the facts that I presented to this thread. Lord knows I ONLY quoted the red lettered words of your fucking saviour!




typical pharisee christian bullshit. 200 years from now whatever sect your dogma junkie shit becomes will be distancing itself from the likes of your memory much the same way you do the crusades.. Ironic, really. Hell, the FIRST goddamn thing JESUS said to do was to sign up for Ceasars army and go be patriotic by killing the enemies of CEASAR!




I almost wish you ignorant bastards were actually right in your mythology so I could see the look on your face when you are told to depart because he doesn't know you. Unfortunately....

 

[Turboswede]

Well sir, that's a well reasoned question and I thank you for asking it.

In short, the US military operates on the Uniform Code of Military Justice... within that code are very specific regulations which FORBID an individual from executing ANY ORDER which they have good reason to believe is unlawful... what's more, the US military stads on a long tradition of respect and adherence to the principle that no law can serve justice, where that law is not founded in valid moral principle. Thus, the individual is not only never required to kill outside of valid moral justification; they are strictly forbidden to do so and what's more, it is not a valid defense from charges of killing outside of valid moral justification, to declare that one was following orders.

The US military is not an army of drones... it is a highly disciplined, highly trained professional military; and that is the source of its efficacy; its effectiveness. Each combat soldier is trained in what is and is not a valid moral justification to kill and that training is constantly reinforced and exercised. Now does that mean that there are not cases where individuals acted on dubious grounds; where poor judgment was used, where the fog of war (the chaos of action, fear, adrenalin, fatigue, rage, time compression and so on...) created circumstances which made good decisions literally impossible... absolutely and it is due to that which makes war the absolute last resort, because once it starts the only two options is to survive or die; to win or lose.

Serving in the Military is a very honorable act and it is one which without regard to one's position, but particularly so for those who choose to enter the breech... and one which those who choose not to enter can never know or in many cases can never even relate to it. But it is unquestionably a moral function and one which is more necessary than most.

Ah, that does make sense, the US UCMJ is there and it does give the individual the ability to not act on an unlawful order. That would later be a decision for a military tribunal to make, but overall military justice is very fair and more likely to reach a well reasoned decision than a civil jury. So if one were given a blatantly illegal order, the officer could be fairly confident that his justified refusal to follow the order would be upheld by a military court marshal.

I know that’s not a decision any one who serves would ever want to face, and fortunately it is an extremely rare occurrence.

Thanks PubliusInfinitu for the well reasoned answer.

 

[Gurdari]

The bible is filled with aggressive references to taking out an enemy... so any believer of the 'Big 3' religions who follow the same God are well aligned to attack/defend as they see fit. I think it is only a few far East religions (maybe Taoism?) that are non-violent.

 

[ABikerSailor]

The bible is filled with aggressive references to taking out an enemy... so any believer of the 'Big 3' religions who follow the same God are well aligned to attack/defend as they see fit. I think it is only a few far East religions (maybe Taoism?) that are non-violent.

Ummmmm.......no.

Taoists have a LONG history of martial arts, as well as the art of fighting. One of the premier Taoists was a dude named Sun-Tzu, who wrote a book called "The Art of War".

Additionally, the meaning of Taoist (if you'd bother to look it up), means "Scholar Warrior".

Wrong. Try again.

 

[mightypeon]

I would say that highly peacefull religions did not survive because they were outcompeted by more militant ones.

 

[KeaganFaie]

You know the problem with using the bible as a source is that it contradicts itself. It's a work written by a lot of different people at different times with varying opinions. You could find passages in the bible that support either pro-war or pro-peace. For that matter you could use bible passages out of context to support human sacrifice.

I would say it would be a better idea to come up with your own conclusions about Christianity and war either by reading the bible yourself or simply examining your own beliefs about God.

 

[Gurdari]

Ummmmm.......no.

Taoists have a LONG history of martial arts, as well as the art of fighting. One of the premier Taoists was a dude named Sun-Tzu, who wrote a book called "The Art of War".

Additionally, the meaning of Taoist (if you'd bother to look it up), means "Scholar Warrior".

Wrong. Try again.

Hey BikerSailor - if one more religion is PRO-violence, then I am happy to aggree. My statement (which I believe was clear when I said "maybe Taoism?" instead of "definitely Taoism") was to imply that religion is comfortable with violence.

Humility is the highest virtue.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Hey BikerSailor - if one more religion is PRO-violence, then I am happy to aggree. My statement (which I believe was clear when I said "maybe Taoism?" instead of "definitely Taoism") was to imply that religion is comfortable with violence.

Humility is the highest virtue.

It's not so much that they are pro-violence, it is that they know how to fight so that if violence is forced upon them, they are able to defend themselves.

I wouldn't say so much that they are comfortable, as it is more that they are familiar with it.

Incidentally, that is one thing that I have a problem with fanatics of any stripe about......they think that because something is "evil" they should shun it and ignore it's existence. Unfortunately, burying ones head in the sand like that just makes you susceptible to that evil visiting you. Think of a small town person who has never been to the city going to NYC. Because they are unaware of the dangers, they are generally the first one to meet up with them.

 

[Gurdari]

When I say 'pro-violence' I mean that it is often an accepted manner in which to solve problems... like the Bible doesn't say go to the city walls and discuss your differences and examine why your way is better than that of the Philistines, and perhaps learn to live in tolerance - it usually says crush the enemies and take slaves, or something equally 'pro-violence'.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Actually, violence isn't an accepted manner to solve problems. Neither HaShem (God) nor Yeshua (Jesus) ever espoused anything like that.

The problem comes in when people interpret their own view as the only correct one. It's the people that are violent, not the theology.

 

[Diuretic]

When I say 'pro-violence' I mean that it is often an accepted manner in which to solve problems... like the Bible doesn't say go to the city walls and discuss your differences and examine why your way is better than that of the Philistines, and perhaps learn to live in tolerance - it usually says crush the enemies and take slaves, or something equally 'pro-violence'.

It probably reflected the temporal views of the time.

 

[WhiteLion]

Given that the founding premise is that the United States is a nation which rests on the self evident principle that God exists; that human life itself is a gift endowed onto each individual and that the gift of life indicates God's will is that each life is entitled to pursue the fulfillment of that life; a gift which comes with the sacred responsibility to defend that unalienable right and the gift of life in one's self and those around one from unjustified threat...



And given that Christians believe that Christ was God incarnate, the human son of God, who came to earth to provide his grace to humanity which he realized was simply incapable of taking fellowship with God otherwise... so he came to earth, existing in human form, living a sin free life, and in the prime of that life, accepted an unjust verdict which he knew would expose his human body to unspeakable, sustained torment... just so his fellow humans would not have to pay the price for their failue to maintain God's standard... wherein each individual would otherwise endure sustained, unspeakable torment... so Christ sacrificed his humanity to give each of us an equal opportunity to avoid the afore mentioned unspeakable torment...

And given that it can be argued that military service is, certainly to a lesser degree, a similar sacrifice... I'd say that reason suggest that it's within Christian values to serve in the Military. Where FTR: one remains duty bound to the same responsibilities... to not kill without valid moral justification or to infringe on the rights of others to exercise their own rights.

PubliusInfinitu you accertained that very well Im proud of you and your ability to construct the WORD of GOD... As for me I know GODs WORD but im slightly dyslexic in matters of tactness... Now i can throw a mess of scriptures out there faster than you can say sweet Jesus and still maintain contextual emphasis.......But you take the cake fight the good fight bro until we all take flight...

 

[Gurdari]

Actually, violence isn't an accepted manner to solve problems. Neither HaShem (God) nor Yeshua (Jesus) ever espoused anything like that.

The problem comes in when people interpret their own view as the only correct one. It's the people that are violent, not the theology.

Are you sure? Are the following real bible quotes?
(if they are false - I apologize). Let me know:


Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)


They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

 

[Diuretic]

And this is the problem with literal interpretations of historical documents. There's almost a couple of thousand years of theological interpretation available on just about every issue in the Bible. So why interpret the text in a literal manner? I posted earlier in the thread (I think) about the interpretation of Just War by St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas, yet here we are, dragged back to the literal word in the Bible.

 

[Turboswede]

And this is the problem with literal interpretations of historical documents. There's almost a couple of thousand years of theological interpretation available on just about every issue in the Bible. So why interpret the text in a literal manner? I posted earlier in the thread (I think) about the interpretation of Just War by St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas, yet here we are, dragged back to the literal word in the Bible.

Yup Diuretic, and I for one realy appreciated the link, it helped me a lot.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Are you sure? Are the following real bible quotes?
(if they are false - I apologize). Let me know:


Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)


They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

First, tell me a country that still does things the OT way, then tell me how these verses are applicable today. They're not.

And no......violence has NEVER been a part of what God and Jesus talked about. What part of "thou shalt not kill" do you not get?

 

[WhiteLion]

By all means.. AVOID the facts that I presented to this thread. Lord knows I ONLY quoted the red lettered words of your fucking saviour!




typical pharisee christian bullshit. 200 years from now whatever sect your dogma junkie shit becomes will be distancing itself from the likes of your memory much the same way you do the crusades.. Ironic, really. Hell, the FIRST goddamn thing JESUS said to do was to sign up for Ceasars army and go be patriotic by killing the enemies of CEASAR!




I almost wish you ignorant bastards were actually right in your mythology so I could see the look on your face when you are told to depart because he doesn't know you. Unfortunately....

Dude you are like a crazed lunacidal manic in need of serious medication and about 25 years in a streight jacket... go get help quikly go go

 

[Diuretic]

Yup Diuretic, and I for one realy appreciated the link, it helped me a lot.

Glad to hear that Turbo, it's a good read. I have a copy of Summa Theologica myself and it makes me feel very important and educated when I dip into it because on one side it's in Latin and on the other side it's in English (thankfully)